Lubbock man says he was fired for being gay; law says it's OK

Jul 25, 2014 Full story: Lubbock Avalanche-Journal 256

But, after he introduced his fiancA© to the kids he worked with at the Children's Home of Lubbock, he was fired.

Full Story
Corbutt of the Joke

Philadelphia, PA

#47 Jul 27, 2014
Jaleesa wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, count them on your fingers please....Lol I dont think any form of pda should be allowed in the work place. I dont want to see you kissing or holding hands....Also lets refrain from bigots as a term to describe people who have
You say that people of color cannot hide. That is false. Many can pass as white, including the most recent head of the NAACP.

The issue is not about pdas, although simply kissing a spouse in public is fine. You're lying. The issue here is about revealing one's sexual orientation.

Your supposed answer to this problem is to "go where you're welcome." Well that was not the response to whites only lunch counters and you know it. You're lying. That's simply and only your "answer" regarding the equal civil rights of lgbt people.

When people single out lgbt people for discrimination and defamation that is bigotry. It is not your moral convictions. You might (should, if you actually were a Christian,) have moral convictions about those who covet or disrespect their parents, but you don't want _them_ fired from their jobs on that basis.

Bigot.
Corbutt of the Joke

Philadelphia, PA

#48 Jul 27, 2014
Jaleesa wrote:
<quoted text>
Let us not start with throwing Biblical verses for the sake of throwing biblical verses. Everyone has a different way of interpreting things so that is not going to get us anywhere as far as how it stands legally.
Loon, you're the one who mentioned your alleged "moral convictions" as some rationale for businesses to fire openly lgbt people.

What "moral convictions" do you have that could possibly justify singling out lgbt folks for firing simply for being as open as heterosexuals are about _their_ sexual orientation apart from the buybull. Be specific.

In reality you have little idea what you're saying. You are merely grasping to justify your psychosexual issue of homophobia, like dissembler Dan from Omaha does for eight hours a day.
Corbutt of the Joke

Philadelphia, PA

#49 Jul 27, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure.
He also didn't teach that "thou shalt not make any determination between what you think is right and what you think is wrong"
Go advocate the firing in this non theocracy of those who unrepentantly covet or unrepentantly disrespect their parents, then, as the headlining Ten _Commodements_ say.

You're not about scripture. You're about homophobic bigotry, clearly.
Corbutt of the Joke

Philadelphia, PA

#50 Jul 27, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Christians aren't to judge, but neither are they bound to enable what they believe is sinful.
Go argue for the firing of those who unrepentantly bear false witness, then, liar.

You have a psychological problem with homosexuality. Your drivel is not about Christianity. That is only what you like to claim so you can pretend (to exactly no one besides yourself) that you're not a bigot.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#51 Jul 27, 2014
Corbutt of the Joke wrote:
<quoted text>
Go advocate the firing in this non theocracy of those who unrepentantly covet or unrepentantly disrespect their parents, then, as the headlining Ten _Commodements_ say.
You're not about scripture. You're about homophobic bigotry, clearly.
Actually, I'm "about" neither.

I just know a crappy argument when I see it.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#52 Jul 27, 2014
Corbutt of the Joke wrote:
<quoted text>
Go argue for the firing of those who unrepentantly bear false witness, then, liar.
You have a psychological problem with homosexuality. Your drivel is not about Christianity. That is only what you like to claim so you can pretend (to exactly no one besides yourself) that you're not a bigot.
Pretty sure that if your boss catches you lying about stuff you do or are supposed to do at woirk, they'll fire you.

Fish in a barrel, I swear.

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#53 Jul 27, 2014
Jaleesa wrote:
I will just throw out this example... if I am clearly not wanted at an establishment or there is a chance for them to discriminate me. Chances are just will not work there. It really is an easy simple solution, if you are not wanted, and could possibly face discrimination. Avoid it. As an African American... I know where I am not wanted, and I do not eat, play, work etc in places where I am not wanted. Let people have whatever beliefs they want, even if you do not agree with them on it. Minorities have been dealing with discrimination since day one. Welcome to the club.
Yep. That's what Rosa Parks said: They don't want me in the front of the bus, so I'm going to just stand here in the back. That's what MLK said: They don't want blacks eating in this establishment, so we'll just grab lunch back in the ghetto. That's even what Jackie Robinson said when he tried out for professional baseball: They don't want me in the white leagues, so I'll just go play with my homeys.

But you don't have to make those hard choices because others did the hard work of flipping the tables for those who would discriminate against you. Don't get me wrong: I know that discrimination--both intentional and subconscious, both overt and subliminal--affect you, probably every day of your life. But when you are mistreated in the marketplace, you know you have the law on your side.

Just as all of us do daily, we decide which points to push and which points to let slide. I have no doubt that you find yourself often judging racism unworthy of the effort it would take to confront.

The fact is that the behavior of this daycare could engender legal sanctions if it had been carried out against, say, an interracial couple. You take for granted that the law would be on your side if you were placed in such a situation, even though you may not pursue a legal remedy. But part of the reason that there are so many other opportunities out there for you is that employers are well aware that discriminating against you would be illegal.

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#54 Jul 27, 2014
Jaleesa wrote:
<quoted text>
I mean... maybe it is just me.. I just dont understand the point of everyone trying to fight over things such as an organizations religious beliefs. Yes, discrimination in the secular no religion attached what so ever absolutely not, you do not get to be fired for whatever you are doing in regards to something that is deemed uncontrollable, like your skin, your sex, your orientation. If you just have a bigoted employer who doesnt like gay people but has no religious convictions behind it. Slap him with a lawsuit. But if you deliberately work for an organization that you know has religious beliefs that counteract that, then its like setting yourself up for failure. It would be like me going to work for a Mormon institution. I would never, why? Because despite the fact that they changed their views, there are still many Mormons who discriminate against black people because they believe we were apart of the fallen angels which is why our skin is dark. Looney absolutely. Would I work for them despite it being a good organization, no.
Are you sure that other organizations dedicated to caring for developmentally challenged children would hire gays? It's completely legal for them to do so. And anyone can claim a religious belief, no matter how lackadaisical their practice.

Some even claim religious condemnation of other races or mixing of races generally. Should social service agencies be allowed to discriminate against blacks based on the religious beliefs of their owners? Or the church that sponsors them? Should organizations that do discriminate that way receive tax-payer funded contracts?

A little-known fact about the many Roman Catholic charities is that the church provides very little monetary support. Government contracts provide a much larger portion of their operating budget. In many communities, religious-affiliated services are the only game in town. Heck the state of Kentucky contracts its entire children's services to the Baptists.

It wasn't so long ago whites could discriminate against blacks just as easily as organizations now discriminate against gays. Blacks got fed up with that and worked for change. We're also working for change.

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#55 Jul 27, 2014
Jaleesa wrote:
Also to those who are saying its not a lifestyle.
The difference between say something like homosexuality and skin color is this...
and even though I dont agree with it at all
1.) You can still hide the fact that you are gay. Gay people can live a life and gain more success and have a lot more opportunities than anyone who is discriminated based on skin color. I cant hide the fact that I am black, its all over me. A Hispanic man or woman can not hide the fact that they are Hispanic. I would much rather be in the position of a gay person, than most minorities are in like myself. We dont have that luxury.
2.) This man chose to have his fiance at work, and allegedly chose to be affection towards him . He made that choice to put himself at risk. So in essence, that is a choice, that he made. Its not fair, its not necessarily right, but he made the decision. And his employer took action based on the organizations beliefs, not necessarily his own.
You are probably correct that a white gay male will have more opportunities, on average, than a black person. However, there are also black gay males and females who experience your daily discrimination as well as being marginalized for being gay. There are also people who are quite obvious and can't hide that they're gay. And why should they?

I'm not even going to get into the problems faced by the gender dysphoric.

Here's another difference between gays and other cultural minorities: Black people generally grew up with other black people, and everyone knew they were black and expected them to be black when they grew up. Most likely, they knew black mentors and role models growing up. And probably every grade school teaches about at least a few great black men in history.

The same does not occur for most gays. Their families expect them to grow up straight. They often teach the kids that they are evil for being who they are.[Do you remember when black people had to proclaim "Black is beautiful" to overcome the ignominy of not being white?] At least when I was in school, no examples successful, happy, gay role models were presented for us. Kids would not have adult gays with whom to share the frustrations of growing up.

I don't think it does a lot of good to compare the degree of difficulties faced by one group or another. The fact is that the experiences of individuals within that group vary so widely that the average becomes almost irrelevant.

What can be said is that the experiences of different minority groups are different. Some of the challenges are shared. Some are different. But wherever unnecessary challenges can be mitigated, we should seek, as a society, to do so.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#56 Jul 27, 2014
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You are probably correct that a white gay male will have more opportunities, on average, than a black person. However, there are also black gay males and females who experience your daily discrimination as well as being marginalized for being gay. There are also people who are quite obvious and can't hide that they're gay. And why should they?
I'm not even going to get into the problems faced by the gender dysphoric.
Here's another difference between gays and other cultural minorities: Black people generally grew up with other black people, and everyone knew they were black and expected them to be black when they grew up. Most likely, they knew black mentors and role models growing up. And probably every grade school teaches about at least a few great black men in history.
The same does not occur for most gays. Their families expect them to grow up straight. They often teach the kids that they are evil for being who they are.[Do you remember when black people had to proclaim "Black is beautiful" to overcome the ignominy of not being white?] At least when I was in school, no examples successful, happy, gay role models were presented for us. Kids would not have adult gays with whom to share the frustrations of growing up.
I don't think it does a lot of good to compare the degree of difficulties faced by one group or another. The fact is that the experiences of individuals within that group vary so widely that the average becomes almost irrelevant.
What can be said is that the experiences of different minority groups are different. Some of the challenges are shared. Some are different. But wherever unnecessary challenges can be mitigated, we should seek, as a society, to do so.
Hold on-no more posts until I get some popcorn.

I don'tt want to miss s single installment of "Who's The More Aggrieved Minority?"

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#57 Jul 27, 2014
Jaleesa wrote:
Gay people have that option to hide in the closet. There is no closet for other minorities.
Actually, the only minorities that can't hide in the closet are racial minorities and, perhaps, those whose accents give away their foreign heritage. Jews can and do hide within the Christian community. And I have no doubt that larger numbers of Muslims daily make the same decision I have to make about identifying myself to a stranger.

We are not the only minority that deals with closets. We are, however, the only minority that grows up thinking we're the only ones in the world like us.

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#58 Jul 27, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Hold on-no more posts until I get some popcorn.
I don'tt want to miss s single installment of "Who's The More Aggrieved Minority?"
Hold on. Don't read any more posts until you've completed a course in reading comprehension.

Since: Aug 11

Scotts Valley, CA

#59 Jul 27, 2014
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Um, I don't think that Christians are enjoined from discerning what they believe to be sinful activity and avoidng same.
Christians aren't to judge, but neither are they bound to enable what they believe is sinful.
Very true.
Jaleesa

Lubbock, TX

#60 Jul 27, 2014
WasteWater wrote:
<quoted text>
Correct, but the people who come in the name of the Lord, practicing bigotry, are hypocrites. Some may eventually see the error of their ways.
In reference to your other post, I am a trans person who understands what marginalization means. You took what I posted as a challenge to you personally, which it was not. All I was saying was that some people draw a line in the sand while others don't. I usually do what you posted previously and avoid confrontational situations as you probably do. Just being there makes a statement.
I dont feel like I took it personally but, if it came off that way I apologize. I was just making a statement. But yeah, i think... christianity has become a social status versus an actual practice. I can even admit to having moments of complete hypocrisy. Which... again, forgiveness. Its all really a matter of doing it out of love and intentions that are good not bad. Even if people disagree on certain things.
Jaleesa

Lubbock, TX

#61 Jul 27, 2014
Corbutt of the Joke wrote:
<quoted text>
You say that people of color cannot hide. That is false. Many can pass as white, including the most recent head of the NAACP.
The issue is not about pdas, although simply kissing a spouse in public is fine. You're lying. The issue here is about revealing one's sexual orientation.
Your supposed answer to this problem is to "go where you're welcome." Well that was not the response to whites only lunch counters and you know it. You're lying. That's simply and only your "answer" regarding the equal civil rights of lgbt people.
When people single out lgbt people for discrimination and defamation that is bigotry. It is not your moral convictions. You might (should, if you actually were a Christian,) have moral convictions about those who covet or disrespect their parents, but you don't want _them_ fired from their jobs on that basis.
Bigot.
.... Im not even going to entertain the blacks passing for white statement you made.... XD wow lol

I wasnt lying, I made a statement saying I dont think public displays of affections gay or straight should be allowed in the work place. just a person opinion. So I cant really lie about that. Lol

His sexual orientation was already revealed, the boss knew he was gay and that was fine as far as working there. The issue came where he was working for a nonprofit privately owned christian organization where they practice a doctrine of Christianity that teaches that homosexuality is a sin.

I will put it like this... its kind of like... If you poke a bear with a stick.. we dont like the fact that you got mauled...but we arent surprised either. The man chose to work for a Christian organization, that literally teaches children their viewpoint of what makes a good family what makes a wrong family for children in abusive home situations. How a privately owned practice decides to conduct their own religious dogma is up to them. I am sure he knew this when he was hired.

LOL, clearly you havent been to the South... that stuff still happens today. I reiterate, I dont necessarily agree with it. So please go back and read. But I do think that people should do what is best to protect themselves from a situation that will probably leave them with the short end of the stick. or mauled by a bear... whatever you fancy.

Maybe you should reread my posts before making assumptions of lies that...well dont warrant lies. And as a Christian and with a homosexual brother might I add, I do not agree with how some people handle homosexuality. But something like this... isnt newsworthy. This could have been avoided in a lot of ways. But the organization literally helps and chooses to teach their view of a biblical family, which is their right. If anything jeopardizes that , they have ever right to discontinue work with an individual. I mean they could literally fire him over wearing the color blue. Its a private organization . Is it dumb... in many ways yes... in other ways... no

Dan

Omaha, NE

#62 Jul 27, 2014
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Hold on. Don't read any more posts until you've completed a course in reading comprehension.
Oh, I read them.
Jaleesa

Lubbock, TX

#63 Jul 27, 2014
Corbutt of the Joke wrote:
<quoted text>
Loon, you're the one who mentioned your alleged "moral convictions" as some rationale for businesses to fire openly lgbt people.
What "moral convictions" do you have that could possibly justify singling out lgbt folks for firing simply for being as open as heterosexuals are about _their_ sexual orientation apart from the buybull. Be specific.
In reality you have little idea what you're saying. You are merely grasping to justify your psychosexual issue of homophobia, like dissembler Dan from Omaha does for eight hours a day.
A private company can fire anyone for any reason they want tbh and they dont have to have that justifiable of a reason. This was not a company that had not disclosed their beliefs about Christianity anyway. They are pretty open about what they practice and decide to teach to the children from abusive homes. Which is tots legal.

My moral convictions is I dont want to see pda from anyone lol. But some doctrines believe they that they shouldn't have homosexuals in their organizations, or especially exposing children to a homosexual relationship and call it normal. Do i agree with that? No. But I dont feel any desire to flip tables over someone elses beliefs either. I am not afraid of gay people. Use the term homophobia correctly. I have no reason to have an issue with gays or anything. I do have an issue with people trying to change someone elses religious beliefs. All the stuff in the middle east, with America pushing their big corporate businesses and American way of living in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Yemen, etc. Is wrong. So I think it is also wrong in the same sense of forcing people to feel uncomfortable in their own religious beliefs in America.


Just reread the posts and get back to me when you are done seething over an anonymous thread. Im just formulating an opinion lol
Jaleesa

Lubbock, TX

#64 Jul 27, 2014
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep. That's what Rosa Parks said: They don't want me in the front of the bus, so I'm going to just stand here in the back. That's what MLK said: They don't want blacks eating in this establishment, so we'll just grab lunch back in the ghetto. That's even what Jackie Robinson said when he tried out for professional baseball: They don't want me in the white leagues, so I'll just go play with my homeys.
But you don't have to make those hard choices because others did the hard work of flipping the tables for those who would discriminate against you. Don't get me wrong: I know that discrimination--both intentional and subconscious, both overt and subliminal--affect you, probably every day of your life. But when you are mistreated in the marketplace, you know you have the law on your side.
Just as all of us do daily, we decide which points to push and which points to let slide. I have no doubt that you find yourself often judging racism unworthy of the effort it would take to confront.
The fact is that the behavior of this daycare could engender legal sanctions if it had been carried out against, say, an interracial couple. You take for granted that the law would be on your side if you were placed in such a situation, even though you may not pursue a legal remedy. But part of the reason that there are so many other opportunities out there for you is that employers are well aware that discriminating against you would be illegal.
Yeah... i get what you are saying. No need to quote the greats. My only thing is that Religious rights should be protected as well. And the issue with homosexuality is that alot of people who are practicing Christians, not all of course. Believe that homosexuality is a sin and do not want say their children being exposed to it as natural. Especially with something like a daycare run by a Christian organization.

I dont deny that the law would be on my side in a certain situation, but at the same time, like I have said, I would not put myself in a situation where I could lose my job because of how I live or if I am being myself. That is really just silly.
Jaleesa

Lubbock, TX

#65 Jul 27, 2014
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you sure that other organizations dedicated to caring for developmentally challenged children would hire gays? It's completely legal for them to do so. And anyone can claim a religious belief, no matter how lackadaisical their practice.
Some even claim religious condemnation of other races or mixing of races generally. Should social service agencies be allowed to discriminate against blacks based on the religious beliefs of their owners? Or the church that sponsors them? Should organizations that do discriminate that way receive tax-payer funded contracts?
A little-known fact about the many Roman Catholic charities is that the church provides very little monetary support. Government contracts provide a much larger portion of their operating budget. In many communities, religious-affiliated services are the only game in town. Heck the state of Kentucky contracts its entire children's services to the Baptists.
It wasn't so long ago whites could discriminate against blacks just as easily as organizations now discriminate against gays. Blacks got fed up with that and worked for change. We're also working for change.
If they want to hire gays they can, but its up to the individual to protect themselves as well. That is how I feel about alot of things. And if they want to discriminate, then they will discriminate anyway. If there is a church that has an issue with black people, and runs an organization a certain way, then let them believe and teach however they want. Most people will more than likely not go to that organization anyway, and you sure wont see me going there. You have to pick your battles and this is not a worthy battle. You are right though, even if they may have the only religious organizations that provide services. Which is tots okay. But if I was being discriminated against , chances are I would move and find some place where they were more accepting of me. Dont set yourself up for failure. Dont go or live somewhere you arent wanted.

Also.. blacks are still fighting. Let us be clear. Gays already have the upper hand and are treated better than any minority group in America. So long as it includes white males, the agenda is to put them at an advantage over everyone else. Sorry not sorry..
Jaleesa

Lubbock, TX

#66 Jul 27, 2014
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You are probably correct that a white gay male will have more opportunities, on average, than a black person. However, there are also black gay males and females who experience your daily discrimination as well as being marginalized for being gay. There are also people who are quite obvious and can't hide that they're gay. And why should they?
I'm not even going to get into the problems faced by the gender dysphoric.
Here's another difference between gays and other cultural minorities: Black people generally grew up with other black people, and everyone knew they were black and expected them to be black when they grew up. Most likely, they knew black mentors and role models growing up. And probably every grade school teaches about at least a few great black men in history.
The same does not occur for most gays. Their families expect them to grow up straight. They often teach the kids that they are evil for being who they are.[Do you remember when black people had to proclaim "Black is beautiful" to overcome the ignominy of not being white?] At least when I was in school, no examples successful, happy, gay role models were presented for us. Kids would not have adult gays with whom to share the frustrations of growing up.
I don't think it does a lot of good to compare the degree of difficulties faced by one group or another. The fact is that the experiences of individuals within that group vary so widely that the average becomes almost irrelevant.
What can be said is that the experiences of different minority groups are different. Some of the challenges are shared. Some are different. But wherever unnecessary challenges can be mitigated, we should seek, as a society, to do so.
Maybe there arent gay role models. But the issue ultimately boils down to what you teach is right and what you teach is wrong. Which is what this organization was doing. I agree, it sucks for people who are gay that they didnt grow up in the same way in a heterosexual oriented environment. It sucks for them that they dont have necessarily the same help or advice in those manners. I get it , I have a gay brother and he felt odd with even our own family. But it boils down to how we want the world to influence the way we live.

For example.(this may go off topic, so sorry if I do)

When my brother came out the closet, my dad flipped, but at the same time he retracted what he could and said hey, feel free to come by anytime. I love you and you are always welcome here. It wasnt easy of course for either of them but it worked. The issue arose when my brother wanted to bring his boyfriend to my graduation party in HS. My parents said no, because as a Christian family who follows a southern baptist and apostolic background they didnt want him believing that they thought it was okay to be in a relationship with a guy. That was them not wanting to lie to him. So they didnt and they said they were uncomfortable with it. So he wasnt allowed to bring his boyfriend but he could still come.

It works like that with all my family. Sex before marriage, Divorce, adultery. If it doesnt follow how they interpret Bible they dont have any obligation to be around it or accept it. Which is fine. Of course I dont always agree but its a sound argument. So in regards to anyone who has a set of beliefs whether it be they are Buddhist, Jewish , Muslim w/e. They should be able to practice what they believe without having to succumb to popular opinion about what is right and wrong.

My biological father is Muslim and there are some things he absolutely wont do in regards to his business which is an arab muslim coin business.

Anyway my point is, regardless of if it is a private business or even just an individual that hires someone. If they are genuinely strong in their beliefs they should be able to run their business or live their lives, how they want. Even if it is BS for alot of people.

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