Anti-gay group: We aren't hateful

Anti-gay group: We aren't hateful

There are 2956 comments on the Salon.com story from Nov 25, 2010, titled Anti-gay group: We aren't hateful. In it, Salon.com reports that:

Oh, this is just rich: The Family Research Council is upset that it's been categorized as a "hate group" in The Southern Poverty Law Center's report this week on rabidly anti-gay organizations.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Salon.com.

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Since: Jan 09

Central NJ

#3575 Jan 8, 2011
Stop the Idiots wrote:
<quoted text>
"Male brain in a female" body; since the body can't be changed this is PROOF that it is a mental problem~
Yes! I'll grant you that! But the problem is not psychosis or emotional. The problems seem to be at the core of the brain's construction. Like building a foundation with the wrong kind of cement.(Terry, Trying to simplify the explanation. To no avail I'm afraid) We do change the body! Whatever made you think we couldn't? Oh I know, DNA! DNA controls the kind of hormones produced. We short circuit that with anti androgens and replace the testosterone with estrogen which goes around the DNA's Back door! Clever, huh? Point is that DNA doesn't matter! In time, we'll be able to implant estrogen producing ducts in people and voila! No more taking hormones! Our bodies will produce them naturally! I can't wait! So your primitive tribal myth that gender is immutable can be put out with the garbage! Hope you learned something!
Regards, Terry

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3576 Jan 8, 2011
TerryE wrote:
<quoted text>
Most people who are straight cannot understand this. It's because your brains are matched male to male, female to female. Once in a while, things get screwed up and you get a female brain with a male body. I have theory that involves a destroyed twin in the womb with the survivor. My mother was good at producing girls. She had bore three of them. We know that occasionally "Chimeras" are born. Their bodies have two sets of DNA. One set is in the blood and the other is in certain organs. Another theory is the "Hormonal Brain wash". This theory says that at a critical time, the mother's body produces excessive hormones that flood the fetus'brain and it develops as a female. There is a definite difference in the brains of males and females and Transexuals. This has been confirmed by doing autopsies on M-F Transexuals. These studies have shown the similiarities between certain brain structures of TSes and genetic women. This condition has been around a long time! Jesus mentions it in Matt, 19:12. Hebrews knew them mas "Tum-tum". In India, they were known as "Hijra", in Thailand, it's Kathoey. Among American Indians, they were "Berdaches".
Regards, Terry
Did you know that the term "berdache" was given by the Spanish murderers. The native Americans consider it a derogatory term. I found that fact interesting.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3577 Jan 8, 2011
Stop the Idiots wrote:
<quoted text>
"Male brain in a female" body; since the body can't be changed this is PROOF that it is a mental problem~
The medial professionals do not consider something a problem unless it adversely affects the client's ability to function as a human being. Yes we suffer the adverse effects of abuse heaped upon us by nasty little ignoramuses. Otherwise, we are perfectly able to do anything anyone else can do. Therefore, we are not considered to be mentally ill.

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#3578 Jan 8, 2011
I guess it depends on what your definition of functioning actually is.
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
The medial professionals do not consider something a problem unless it adversely affects the client's ability to function as a human being. Yes we suffer the adverse effects of abuse heaped upon us by nasty little ignoramuses. Otherwise, we are perfectly able to do anything anyone else can do. Therefore, we are not considered to be mentally ill.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3579 Jan 8, 2011
Honest AbeL wrote:
I guess it depends on what your definition of functioning actually is.
<quoted text>
Fair enough. Functioning means doing all the regular things necessary to get through the day such as getting up, taking care of personal needs, going out into the world and being a productive person, loving someone other than yourself, being able to get through life without serious anxiety and depression, and living life to its fullest.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3580 Jan 8, 2011
... among other things.

Since: Oct 09

Location hidden

#3581 Jan 8, 2011
You were polite so I will be also.
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
Fair enough. Functioning means doing all the regular things necessary to get through the day such as getting up, taking care of personal needs, going out into the world and being a productive person, loving someone other than yourself, being able to get through life without serious anxiety and depression, and living life to its fullest.

Since: Jan 09

Central NJ

#3582 Jan 8, 2011
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you know that the term "berdache" was given by the Spanish murderers. The native Americans consider it a derogatory term. I found that fact interesting.
Hmmmmm, I had always thoughgt the term was French in origins. Oh well. Berdache is a non native term given to the Transgendered that French/Spanish encountered while exploring the north American tribes.
Regards, Terry

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#3583 Jan 8, 2011
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem with "definitions" is who gets to decide what the true definition actually is? What's more, there is a range rather than a binary type of explanation. In other words "one size fits all" simply falls short. The way the medial profession approaches defining gender variation is by experience gained from treating and hearing from their clients. The definition has changed over time. In the late 70s Dr. Harry Benjamin became the leading "expert" on treating people who had "gender dysphoria." His approach was that people were either "true transsexual" who wished to transition to the opposite gender or something else. Today we are moving toward a wider definition. Adrogeny is becoming more acceptable and an alternative to total cross over. It is a complex issue which is why I recommend Dr. Mildred Brown's book, True Selves, rather than offer my personal explanation. She agrees with you saying most people don't give a thought to their gender. Sexual orientation has to do with the "who" we are attracted too. Transsexualism has to do with an aversion to the gender we are born with.
Hope you find this helpful. It is refreshing to find someone like you who is willing to ask important questions.
I'm glad you mentioned the "range" as opposed to binary, and that there are varying degrees of androgeny. Someone, may have been Terry, gave a very specific definition that applied to herself, but I have to disagree that her definition would apply to all M-F transsexuals.

You've both already explained that being transsexual is about gender identity, and not sexual orientation. Many people conflate the two and have a very limited concept of the differences, both obvious and subtle. A transsexual person can be gay, straight, or bisexual, just like anyone else. But even some transsexuals are not very educated about these things, and subject to the various notions of sexuality and gender, and the definitions and labels that society has for them, so they self identify in different ways.

I've known many M-F transsexuals who basically live as females, and have always identified more with a female mindset. They look, act, talk, and dress like females, but many of them are quite content to keep the sexual organs they were born with. They may enhance their breasts and overall feminine appearance with hormones, but they have no desire to have a complete gender reassignment surgery.

However, as you and Terry have both shown, they can also have interests in things considered by most to be more masculine. People must understand and differentiate between those aspects of feminine and masculine that are biological, and those that are social constructs which can vary in different cultures, and are subject to change.

For example, no one is born with makeup. Our society considers wearing makeup to be a more feminine thing, but that was not always the case, and in some cultures, males wearing makeup is/was quite common, and not considered feminine. We even associate certain colors with gender. Pink for girls, and blue for boys. There is nothing biological about that, it was completely invented by society. In fact I read somewhere that not too long ago, those colors were actually seen in the opposite way.

So how a person perceives themselves genderwise, and how they act, how they perceive people of the same or opposite gender, etc., is not only a biological thing, but is also influenced by society and culture. Even with cis-gendered heterosexuals, not all men and women define themselves by the same aspects of masculinity and femininity. Not all people of any sexual orientation or gender identity fit into neatly labeled little boxes or stereotypes.

We are all unique individuals with our own identities, and that's as it should be. Those that perceive "differences" as being a mental illness are the ones most likely to have insecurities and hangups about themselves.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3584 Jan 8, 2011
Tre H wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm glad you mentioned the "range" as opposed to binary, and that there are varying degrees of androgeny. Someone, may have been Terry, gave a very specific definition that applied to herself, but I have to disagree that her definition would apply to all M-F transsexuals.
You've both already explained that being transsexual is about gender identity, and not sexual orientation. Many people conflate the two and have a very limited concept of the differences, both obvious and subtle. A transsexual person can be gay, straight, or bisexual, just like anyone else. But even some transsexuals are not very educated about these things, and subject to the various notions of sexuality and gender, and the definitions and labels that society has for them, so they self identify in different ways.
I've known many M-F transsexuals who basically live as females, and have always identified more with a female mindset. They look, act, talk, and dress like females, but many of them are quite content to keep the sexual organs they were born with. They may enhance their breasts and overall feminine appearance with hormones, but they have no desire to have a complete gender reassignment surgery.
However, as you and Terry have both shown, they can also have interests in things considered by most to be more masculine. People must understand and differentiate between those aspects of feminine and masculine that are biological, and those that are social constructs which can vary in different cultures, and are subject to change.
For example, no one is born with makeup. Our society considers wearing makeup to be a more feminine thing, but that was not always the case, and in some cultures, males wearing makeup is/was quite common, and not considered feminine. We even associate certain colors with gender. Pink for girls, and blue for boys. There is nothing biological about that, it was completely invented by society. In fact I read somewhere that not too long ago, those colors were actually seen in the opposite way.
So how a person perceives themselves genderwise, and how they act, how they perceive people of the same or opposite gender, etc., is not only a biological thing, but is also influenced by society and culture. Even with cis-gendered heterosexuals, not all men and women define themselves by the same aspects of masculinity and femininity. Not all people of any sexual orientation or gender identity fit into neatly labeled little boxes or stereotypes.
We are all unique individuals with our own identities, and that's as it should be. Those that perceive "differences" as being a mental illness are the ones most likely to have insecurities and hangups about themselves.
Well said. You pass transsexuality 101 with an A+.

That is no surprise, you obviously have an above average IQ.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3585 Jan 8, 2011
TerryE wrote:
<quoted text>
Hmmmmm, I had always thoughgt the term was French in origins. Oh well. Berdache is a non native term given to the Transgendered that French/Spanish encountered while exploring the north American tribes.
Regards, Terry
True. I heard the Catholic Christian Spanish Conquistadors were know to have slaughtered the native trans people who presented as female. The native tribes have tearful legendary stories about this sad and shameful fact.

“Censorship: A liberal tool”

Since: Aug 09

South-West Philly

#3586 Jan 8, 2011
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
The problem with "definitions" is who gets to decide what the true definition actually is? What's more, there is a range rather than a binary type of explanation. In other words "one size fits all" simply falls short. The way the medial profession approaches defining gender variation is by experience gained from treating and hearing from their clients. The definition has changed over time. In the late 70s Dr. Harry Benjamin became the leading "expert" on treating people who had "gender dysphoria." His approach was that people were either "true transsexual" who wished to transition to the opposite gender or something else. Today we are moving toward a wider definition. Adrogeny is becoming more acceptable and an alternative to total cross over. It is a complex issue which is why I recommend Dr. Mildred Brown's book, True Selves, rather than offer my personal explanation. She agrees with you saying most people don't give a thought to their gender. Sexual orientation has to do with the "who" we are attracted too. Transsexualism has to do with an aversion to the gender we are born with.
Hope you find this helpful. It is refreshing to find someone like you who is willing to ask important questions.
You know, when I started this debate about gay vs. transsexual, I really wasn't thinking about hermaphrodism and androgyny. But I should have. You guys have educated me a bit about how many variations exist. I was oversimplifying things I guess.

Just to be clear, I'm simply curious about these things. I feel no hatred for anybody, and I try not to judge anybody's lifestyle or anything like that. The best way for us to understand each other's perspective is to be honest.

“=”

Since: Oct 07

Appleton WI

#3588 Jan 8, 2011
theotherredneck wrote:
<quoted text>
You know, when I started this debate about gay vs. transsexual, I really wasn't thinking about hermaphrodism and androgyny. But I should have. You guys have educated me a bit about how many variations exist. I was oversimplifying things I guess.
Just to be clear, I'm simply curious about these things. I feel no hatred for anybody, and I try not to judge anybody's lifestyle or anything like that. The best way for us to understand each other's perspective is to be honest.
Well, you seem pretty open-minded for a "redneck" ;) It's refreshing to see someone willing learn, rather than desperately clinging to their preconceived notions.

And just to get back on the topic... it's groups like the FRC, even though most of them probably know damned well that what they spread is mostly lies, that perpetuate the ignorant stereotypes, misconceptions, and outright lies, that convince a lot of people that those who are not heterosexual or cisgendered are somehow sick or immoral.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3589 Jan 8, 2011
theotherredneck wrote:
<quoted text>
You know, when I started this debate about gay vs. transsexual, I really wasn't thinking about hermaphrodism and androgyny. But I should have. You guys have educated me a bit about how many variations exist. I was oversimplifying things I guess.
Just to be clear, I'm simply curious about these things. I feel no hatred for anybody, and I try not to judge anybody's lifestyle or anything like that. The best way for us to understand each other's perspective is to be honest.
Bless you brother for your loving and intelligent pursuit of truth and knowledge. You are not alone in sorting these things out. Many transsexual people go through the same process in trying to find themselves. I know I did.

Since: Jan 09

Central NJ

#3590 Jan 9, 2011
Pauline, In another thread, brought back to me something that should have never left. The infamous John Money/David Reimer case. David Reimer was a normal little male baby who suffered an accident at circumcision. To cover it up, Dr John Money stepped in and did his best to make him into "Brenda". The first manmade Transexual! Brenda was a unhappy girl who didn't fit in. "She" exhibited all the traits, characteristics, and symtoms that we go through. At age 14 she found out what had been done to her and s/he immediately reverted to being a boy. "S/HE" was never a girl! His brain was wired to be a male. It couldn't be changed. All the hormones and dresses couldn't make him a girl. A classic case of induced Transgenderism. Unfortunately, David Reimer committed suicide in the end. Trust people to know who and what they are!
Regards, Terry
LuLu Ford wrote:
<quoted text>
The medial professionals do not consider something a problem unless it adversely affects the client's ability to function as a human being. Yes we suffer the adverse effects of abuse heaped upon us by nasty little ignoramuses. Otherwise, we are perfectly able to do anything anyone else can do. Therefore, we are not considered to be mentally ill.

“Trolls are Clueless”

Since: Dec 07

Aptos, California

#3591 Jan 9, 2011
TerryE wrote:
Pauline, In another thread, brought back to me something that should have never left. The infamous John Money/David Reimer case. David Reimer was a normal little male baby who suffered an accident at circumcision. To cover it up, Dr John Money stepped in and did his best to make him into "Brenda". The first manmade Transexual! Brenda was a unhappy girl who didn't fit in. "She" exhibited all the traits, characteristics, and symtoms that we go through. At age 14 she found out what had been done to her and s/he immediately reverted to being a boy. "S/HE" was never a girl! His brain was wired to be a male. It couldn't be changed. All the hormones and dresses couldn't make him a girl. A classic case of induced Transgenderism. Unfortunately, David Reimer committed suicide in the end. Trust people to know who and what they are!
Regards, Terry
<quoted text>
True! Around 1:1000 people are born intersexed.(Both genders to one degree or another) Often MDs make an arbitrary decision based upon ambiguous genitalia, to assign the baby one gender or the other. It is a statistical crap shoot and just like the example you just gave, it only works out about 50% of the time.

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