New polls show Americans support many initiatives many Democrats hope will pass

Dec 11, 2012 Full story: WTKS-AM Savannah 115

A new poll suggests President Barack Obama has strong leverage over "fiscal cliff" negotiations because the public continues to support raising taxes on the nation's top earners.

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“What Goes Around, Comes Around”

Since: Mar 07

Kansas City, MO.

#127 Dec 14, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Unions, in theory, are merely organizations representing the interests of workers. As in any organization--even charitable organizations--some take advantage of their power over the workers.
Unions also play politics. But then, so do the business interests whom the unions were organized to negotiate with. Why is it okay for businesses to utilize government connections to further their own goals, but improper for labor to do the same. Your bias toward the already-powerful is strong. If you want government to take a neutral stance toward unions, then it must also take a neutral stance toward business interests.
As for whether those jobs would be filled with capable non-union workers: One wonders why it hasn't already happened. Perhaps those replacement workers won't have the experience of the union workforce, and training them would be too expensive.
It's fairly easy to determine, however, whether the workers are worth more than they are paid. If their work is not worth more than they are paid, the business fails. The only question is how the income generated through workers efforts is distributed among owners, management, and workers.
We have had a strong pattern for forty years where national income and productivity of workers increased, but worker pay has not. Yet owners and managers have seen huge returns. Could they take a little less and leave more on the table for the workers? They certainly could. Would they without the efforts of unions? They never have.
SPOT ON....union member for 38 yrs!
Jane Dough

Montpelier, VT

#128 Dec 14, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Why is it okay for businesses to utilize government connections to further their own goals, but improper for labor to do the same.
umm, the corporation sue their own money and the unions use their working stiffs' money? even pensions sometimes....
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>

Perhaps those replacement workers won't have the experience of the union workforce, and training them would be too expensive.
.
so 1950's...its automated these days...all they need is bodies...
they don't need a sweeper for 35 bucks an hour...
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
If their work is not worth more than they are paid, the business fails. The only question is how the income generated through workers efforts is distributed among owners, management, and workers.
How much did the workers invest and risk?
nothing?
they could always start their own company, but alas they don't have the capital or the ability to accept the risks...
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>

We have had a strong pattern for forty years where national income and productivity of workers increased, but worker pay has not. Yet owners and managers have seen huge returns. Could they take a little less and leave more on the table for the workers? They certainly could. Would they without the efforts of unions? They never have.
are you asking why people start businesses?
its to make money and provide jobs...
why don't unions start their OWN companies?

They know looking at pay by workers needs is not sound business...
Jane Dough

Montpelier, VT

#129 Dec 14, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You are old enough to remember who David Stockman is. After his political career imploded, he went into venture capital, just like Romney. You should read what he has to say about Bain.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/10...
I don't see anything wrong with killing dead weight...
they buy low, and flip the house...so what?

and again, this is clearly election time trash.....
Jane Dough

Montpelier, VT

#130 Dec 14, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no interest in twinks nor Twinkies. The older but wiser man for me.
I actually had to look up twink and you could have warned me it was nsfw...

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#131 Dec 14, 2012
Jane Dough wrote:
are you asking why people start businesses?
No, I asked nothing of the sort. But the answer is that investors hope to make money, and they wish to make as much as possible. So do the managers they hire. This explains why the managers have voted themselves huge bonuses, even in companies that have utterly failed the shareholders.

Unions are merely an attempt to level the playing field during wage negotiations. Anti-union theory claims that the free market should determine the wages. But economic theory tells us that there is no such thing as a free market: It is merely a construct used to roughly approximate our own economy.

One of the premises of the free market is that all players have equal information. Corporate power violates this principle. The managers have more knowledge then the owners, hence vote themselves bigger pay packages than they deserve. Managers know exactly how much each worker earns and how much money each division makes. Workers do not know this. That is why they are at a disadvantage in negotiations.

Management also has the ability to hire human resource experts whose job may include determining how to minimize payroll. Unions play the opposite role for the worker: Workers are delegating the job of maximizing their pay to someone who can spend most of their time on that endeavor.

If management can hire people to figure out how to minimize pay, why shouldn't workers be able to hire people to figure out how to maximize? Isn't that the free market at work?

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#133 Dec 14, 2012
Jane Dough wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't see anything wrong with killing dead weight...
they buy low, and flip the house...so what?
and again, this is clearly election time trash.....
The real issue that Stockman made is that Bain is not a job creator: It is a job destroyer and a business destroyer. Others were left paying the bills when Bain made off with money its investments hadn't actually earned.

I don't think you read the article carefully.

But at the end of the day, Stockman is in the same business. So his complaint was not about the business model, but rather the accomplisments that venture capitalists such as Romney proclam.

“ WOOF ! ”

Since: Nov 12

Coolidge, AZ

#135 Dec 14, 2012
Mind Control wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you give us one example of a govt run entity that is at least capable of breaking even financially?
The Bureau Of Engraving And Printing who manufacture all our worthless money.

Since: Nov 09

Location hidden

#136 Dec 14, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I asked nothing of the sort. But the answer is that investors hope to make money, and they wish to make as much as possible. So do the managers they hire. This explains why the managers have voted themselves huge bonuses, even in companies that have utterly failed the shareholders.
Unions are merely an attempt to level the playing field during wage negotiations. Anti-union theory claims that the free market should determine the wages. But economic theory tells us that there is no such thing as a free market: It is merely a construct used to roughly approximate our own economy.
One of the premises of the free market is that all players have equal information. Corporate power violates this principle. The managers have more knowledge then the owners, hence vote themselves bigger pay packages than they deserve. Managers know exactly how much each worker earns and how much money each division makes. Workers do not know this. That is why they are at a disadvantage in negotiations.
Management also has the ability to hire human resource experts whose job may include determining how to minimize payroll. Unions play the opposite role for the worker: Workers are delegating the job of maximizing their pay to someone who can spend most of their time on that endeavor.
If management can hire people to figure out how to minimize pay, why shouldn't workers be able to hire people to figure out how to maximize? Isn't that the free market at work?
The problem is that most of the time it's not about fair pay but greed and unreasonable demands.
GetReal

Chapel Hill, TN

#137 Dec 14, 2012
Imprtnrd wrote:
<quoted text>Your 'right-thinking' americans lost the election last Nov. GET OVER IT!
Actually America lost. See what they think of us in Canada. You are afraid to watch it.
GetReal

Chapel Hill, TN

#138 Dec 14, 2012
Jane Dough

Montpelier, VT

#139 Dec 14, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>

Unions are merely an attempt to level the playing field during wage negotiations. Anti-union theory claims that the free market should determine the wages. But economic theory tells us that there is no such thing as a free market: It is merely a construct used to roughly approximate our own economy.
One of the premises of the free market is that all players have equal information. Corporate power violates this principle. The managers have more knowledge then the owners, hence vote themselves bigger pay packages than they deserve. Managers know exactly how much each worker earns and how much money each division makes. Workers do not know this. That is why they are at a disadvantage in negotiations.
Management also has the ability to hire human resource experts whose job may include determining how to minimize payroll. Unions play the opposite role for the worker: Workers are delegating the job of maximizing their pay to someone who can spend most of their time on that endeavor.
If management can hire people to figure out how to minimize pay, why shouldn't workers be able to hire people to figure out how to maximize? Isn't that the free market at work?
great, so why then do unions make more than other workers that would take the job today?
why would/should a company pay any more than that?
Jane Dough

Montpelier, VT

#140 Dec 14, 2012
nhjeff wrote:
<quoted text>
The real issue that Stockman made is that Bain is not a job creator: It is a job destroyer and a business destroyer.

I don't think you read the article carefully.

So his complaint was not about the business model, but rather the accomplishments that venture capitalists such as Romney proclaim.
right, so his point was to detract from a candidate...right?

not a very unbiased motive...

I admit I did not read the article carefully, it had Mitt's ugly mug on there over-sized...

Bain decided whether to move job overseas and when to keep them here...
seems to me to be a good background if you want to stop the flow of jobs overseas...

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#142 Dec 14, 2012
Mind Control wrote:
<quoted text>
Can you give us one example of a govt run entity that is at least capable of breaking even financially?
As much as I know you conservatives will laugh, the US Post Office. To the extent that it loses money, it's only through legislative interference. And right now, the reason their finances look so bad is that Conress mandated strict pension funding that no private entity is suject to. Also, Congress won't ALLOW USPS to take the steps it says will reduce costs (e.g., eliminate Saturday delivery, which its competitors don't seem to need to stay in business).

Airport authorities generally make money; municipal utilities; turnpikes; Tennessee Valley Authority and many other government-owned power generation ventures; all of the state parks in New Hampshire.

All these things you take for granted. You just assume government can't run a business because, when it does, it generally lacks a profit motive. So government enterprises can only go bust; they can't boom. But many more private enterprises go bust than government enterprises.

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#143 Dec 14, 2012
Jane Dough wrote:
<quoted text>
right, so his point was to detract from a candidate...right?
not a very unbiased motive...
I admit I did not read the article carefully, it had Mitt's ugly mug on there over-sized...
Bain decided whether to move job overseas and when to keep them here...
seems to me to be a good background if you want to stop the flow of jobs overseas...
You do know that Stockman is a strong Republican, don't you? Of course, he will now join all of his thinking friends like Frum in the persona-non-grata end of the party. Even someone who thinks as resonably as you is no longer a "real" Republican.

“Together for 24, legal for 5”

Since: Sep 07

Littleton, NH

#144 Dec 14, 2012
Jane Dough wrote:
<quoted text>
great, so why then do unions make more than other workers that would take the job today?
why would/should a company pay any more than that?
Because unions have historically led the way to a better division of the fruits of our economy. Those who aren't in unions would be even worse off if unions didn't keep raising the bar... which they have not done for several decades.

And it's still not as easy to replace a workforce as you pretend. That's why union shops have not all been replaced.

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