Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against Church?

Apr 27, 2009 Full story: news.yahoo.com 16,103

The trouble they see is not just an America where general support for gay marriage will have driven a wedge between churches and the world, but between churches themselves.

Full Story

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15130 May 11, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Some of us already know the Bible is Truth. Others will learn later. Most will learn in Hell.
But not I. I shall be in the Elysium Fields while you suffer in Hades.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#15131 May 11, 2013
OldJG wrote:
First, all involved are men. 100% men. Second, it was all, ALL of the men of Sodom, young and old. Not some of the men of Sodom, ALL! Your statement "the threat had absolutely no sexual intent" is at best your opinion. Apparently you have no concept of the expression "know them".
Was every man and boy in Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim and Bela homosexual? Serious bummer for the women and girls. As for yada, it means a penis is going in someone else, whether they want it there or not. It is used to describe sexual intercourse both consensual and non-consensual.
OldJG wrote:
Genesis 19:5-7
Blame the translators, the crowd's intent is to do serious bodily harm resulting in a painful and horrific death, not to plan an orgy.
OldJG wrote:
First, I am not your "hon".
Yes you are, dear. Get used to it.
OldJG wrote:
Second, I am not, nor have I ever spoken for God.
Now that I've stopped laughing. Sweetie, your absolute certainty that your choice of beliefs is in fact the ONLY right one is tantamount to speaking for God, because your every post tells us that He agrees with YOU.
OldJG wrote:
His word speaks for itself.
My suggestion is Matthew 7:15-23. I'll listen to Jesus on this one, you don't know figs.
OldJG wrote:
You on the other hand have reinterpreted the Bible to fit your lifestyle of perversion.
There is nothing to reinterpret. The Bible is clear, it isn't mine nor God's fault that you don't get it.
OldJG wrote:
Romans 1:26-27[/QUOTE[Been there, done that already, hon. Weren't you paying attention? Simply repeating verses you know to have been taken out of their actual context and which basically say that God turned the Christians of Rome, queer as folk in a snit over their idolatry, seriously undermines your argument.[QUOTE who="OldJG"]In the word of God He absolutely condemns homosexuality. Of this there is no doubt.
And you wonder why I say that you are speaking for God. Your absolute certainty that you are so absolutely right that God really has no choice but to agree with you. I've read the Bible, several of them in fact, hon. Not only is there a doubt, there's a damned good argument to be made that the idea of homosexuality is never really addressed.
OldJG wrote:
God created a woman for the man. You can read this account in Genesis 2. Satan's counterfeit plan of God's original plan is homosexuality.
So you pray, sweetie. Good luck on that

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#15132 May 11, 2013
snyper wrote:
<quoted text>
The question is why should anyone believe Saul? Because he says to?
Believe me.
See how well that works?
Saul never knew Jesus. All Saul had were his seizures and his visions, and a vast pagan establishment to fleece and convert.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#15133 May 11, 2013
OldJG wrote:
Is black print on white paper a challenge for you?
Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.-- Exodus 31:14

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.-- Exodus 31:15

Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.-- Exodus 35:2

Tell me again just how much deference we should be giving to the laws of Moses. I got my rock already picked out.
OldJG wrote:
First, I am not your "sweetie".
Of course you are, quit whining. There are worse things I could be calling you.
OldJG wrote:
Second, God did not bless you with your homosexuality only to send you to hell for it.
Speaking for God again, sweetie, speaking for God. Sorry dear, but you're just praying like hell that you are right. Whether or not our eternities will be shared or not isn't your call, it's HIS.
OldJG wrote:
No, no. You have made yourself god and blessed yourself to justify your perversion of God's original creation.
So you pray sweetie.
OldJG wrote:
My prayer for you and all living the homosexual lifestyle would be a prayer of repentance.
You might want to try that one out for yourself, seeing that your posting here on the sabbath is pretty much giving the finger to God on something He clearly says we should be stoning you foe.
OldJG wrote:
Another example of God's word....black print on white paper. REPENT!
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#15134 May 11, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
But not I. I shall be in the Elysium Fields while you suffer in Hades.
You know, Jesus never appointed Paul the head of His Church, but most Christains follow Paul. Why is that?

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#15135 May 11, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
I have.
Genesis 13:13 (NKJV)
13 But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the LORD.
Ezekiel 16:49-50 (KJV)

49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.

Nice try though, but you might try remembering that I have read it too.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#15136 May 11, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
It tells of men wanting sex with men rather than with women.
The NT confirms.
"God gave them up to VILE passions" "men with men"
Romans 1:26-27 (NKJV)
Sweetie, you're confusing a threat to gang rape a man or men to death with consensual sex. Is your heterosexuality or your absolute certainty that God really, really agrees with the ugliness that you pray for that's the root of your learning disorder?
OldJG

Rockford, IL

#15137 May 11, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>Ezekiel 16:49-50 (KJV)
49 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.
50 And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Nice try though, but you might try remembering that I have read it too.
You made my point. THEY WERE HAUGHTY, AND COMMITTED ABOMINATION BEFORE ME: THEREFORE I TOOK THEM AWAY AS I SAW GOOD.

God took them away because.....they didn't share their milk and cookies. Oh, no. God took them away because.....THEY WERE HAUGHTY, AND COMMITTED ABOMINATION BEFORE ME.

Abomination....Strong's H8441....a disgusting thing, wickedness

Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

The word "abomination" used in Leviticus 18:22 is Strong's H8441 is the same word for "abomination" used in Ezekiel 16:50.

Now what?
OldJG

Rockford, IL

#15138 May 11, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text> Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death.-- Exodus 31:14
Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.-- Exodus 31:15
Six days shall work bedone, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.-- Exodus 35:2
Tell me again just how much deference we should be giving to the laws of Moses. I got my rock already picked out.
<quoted text>Of course you are, quit whining. There are worse things I could be calling you. <quoted text>Speaking for God again, sweetie, speaking for God. Sorry dear, but you're just praying like hell that you are right. Whether or not our eternities will be shared or not isn't your call, it's HIS. <quoted text>So you pray sweetie.
<quoted text>You might want to try that one out for yourself, seeing that your posting here on the sabbath is pretty much giving the finger to God on something He clearly says we should be stoning you foe.
<quoted text>
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
OldJG wrote:
First, I am not your "sweetie".

Of course you are, quit whining. There are worse things I could be calling you.

OldJG response: Call me what you will. I am certain you are painfully aware of what to call yourself.

OldJG wrote:
Second, God did not bless you with your homosexuality only to send you to hell for it.

Speaking for God again, sweetie, speaking for God. Sorry dear, but you're just praying like hell that you are right. Whether or not our eternities will be shared or not isn't your call, it's HIS.

OldJG response: No, you are speaking for God when you call sin a lifestyle. If you believe being a sodomite or lesbian is not a sin and God says it is a sin, what then?

OldJG wrote:
No, no. You have made yourself god and blessed yourself to justify your perversion of God's original creation.

So you pray sweetie.

OldJG response: I pray you will repent from your sinful perversion. I am certain God brought the woman to the man. Read Genesis 2.

OldJG wrote:
My prayer for you and all living the homosexual lifestyle would be a prayer of repentance.

You might want to try that one out for yourself, seeing that your posting here on the sabbath is pretty much giving the finger to God on something He clearly says we should be stoning you foe.

OldJG response: Nice try. Deflect. Won't work.

OldJG wrote:
Another example of God's word....black print on white paper. REPENT!

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#15139 May 12, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Some of us already know the Bible is Truth. Others will learn later. Most will learn in Hell.
Operant Fallacies:

Appeal to Authority
Argumentum ad Baculum

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#15140 May 12, 2013
OldJG wrote:
<quoted text>
You made my point. THEY WERE HAUGHTY, AND COMMITTED ABOMINATION BEFORE ME: THEREFORE I TOOK THEM AWAY AS I SAW GOOD.
God took them away because.....they didn't share their milk and cookies. Oh, no. God took them away because.....THEY WERE HAUGHTY, AND COMMITTED ABOMINATION BEFORE ME.
Abomination....Strong's H8441....a disgusting thing, wickedness
Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
The word "abomination" used in Leviticus 18:22 is Strong's H8441 is the same word for "abomination" used in Ezekiel 16:50.
Now what?
Let's consult Jews rather than Gentiles. It's THEIR language, after all.

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/352-ab...

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#15141 May 12, 2013
tickedoffchic wrote:
<quoted text>
You know, Jesus never appointed Paul the head of His Church, but most Christains follow Paul. Why is that?
Oh, that's easy. He opened the religion up to non-Jews.
Concerned Expat

UK

#15142 May 12, 2013
dollarsbill wrote:
<quoted text>
Some of us already know the Bible is Truth. Others will learn later. Most will learn in Hell.

People who don't embrace religion have the freedom to live good lives without the selfish desire for life after death.

Life on Earth is reality. Life after death is a mythological social construct designed by charlatans to control weak minded people like you, who are greedy for more than that which life on Earth affords them.

All religions, branches of religions and sects are controlled and have always been controlled by unscrupulous charlatans.

This thread is fatuous on the basis that gay marriage has as much credibility as gay conception.

Actually it also has as much credibility as immaculate conception.

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#15143 May 12, 2013
OldJG wrote:
You made my point. THEY WERE HAUGHTY, AND COMMITTED ABOMINATION BEFORE ME: THEREFORE I TOOK THEM AWAY AS I SAW GOOD.
God took them away because.....they didn't share their milk and cookies. Oh, no. God took them away because.....THEY WERE HAUGHTY, AND COMMITTED ABOMINATION BEFORE ME.
Abomination....Strong's H8441....a disgusting thing, wickedness
Leviticus 18:22, "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."
The word "abomination" used in Leviticus 18:22 is Strong's H8441 is the same word for "abomination" used in Ezekiel 16:50.
Now what?
Um sweetie, you do realize that the purported events in Sodom took place long before God laid down the laws to Moses in Leviticus, don't you? You do also realize that no actual violation of 18:22 takes place in the retelling of those events, don't you? So, unless your point was that you really don't know what you are talking about, Ezekiel doesn't help you a whole lot. He says that they COMMITTED an abomination and 18:22 doesn't say merely threatening to do it is one. So, while Leviticus does say that a male on male act is an "abomination", according to Genesis, no such act took place, therefore you must be wrong about the abomination that Ezekiel said happened. It would help if you knew the rules that had already been laid out to Abraham.
Golem is Dead

Indianapolis, IN

#15144 May 12, 2013
Rick in Kansas wrote:
<quoted text>Um sweetie, you do realize that the purported events in Sodom took place long before God laid down the laws to Moses in Leviticus, don't you? You do also realize that no actual violation of 18:22 takes place in the retelling of those events, don't you? So, unless your point was that you really don't know what you are talking about, Ezekiel doesn't help you a whole lot. He says that they COMMITTED an abomination and 18:22 doesn't say merely threatening to do it is one. So, while Leviticus does say that a male on male act is an "abomination", according to Genesis, no such act took place, therefore you must be wrong about the abomination that Ezekiel said happened. It would help if you knew the rules that had already been laid out to Abraham.
Dog molester !

“ reality, what a concept”

Since: Nov 07

this one

#15145 May 12, 2013
OldJG wrote:
OldJG response: Call me what you will. I am certain you are painfully aware of what to call yourself.[//QUOTE]Dumpling, I've been called all sorts of things during my lifetime. Unlike for yourself, what folk can come up with isn't the least bit painful for me.
[QUOTE who="OldJG"]
OldJG response: No, you are speaking for God when you call sin a lifestyle. If you believe being a sodomite or lesbian is not a sin and God says it is a sin, what then?
Dear, you seem to be forgetting, that what you choose to believe to be a "sin" is your decision, not Gods. Yes, He laid down laws, some very specific and some like 18:22, which in it's original Hebrew, are a lot more vague. his followers have been trying to figure them out ever since. Oh and FYI, the books of Moses don't address God's view towards female on female acts and as far as "sodomites" go, you are likely one yourself. When the word "sodomite" was first used to mean anything other than an inhabitant of Sodom, it was used to describe those who engaged in ANY sexual act which could not result in procreation, REGARDLESS of the sex, species or number of participants. It ended up being used in translations of Old Testament works as a one word replacement for qadesh, a group of men whose role in the cultures where they existed would be totally foreign to most readers. The qadesh were male prostitutes who plied their trade for Pagan worship services and depending on the cult they were associated with, their clientele could be either male or female.
OldJG wrote:
OldJG response: I pray you will repent from your sinful perversion.
That's so Christian of you. I'll pray that you repent for YOUR sinful perversions, like violating HIS rule regarding the Sabbath, which you have violated.
OldJG wrote:
I am certain God brought the woman to the man. Read Genesis 2.
You seem to keep wanting to forget that I have read the Bible, dear. It would help if you read chapter 1 first, you might be a little less confused. Though not specifically mentioned, we appear on day 6, with the rest of the human species, His experiment with Adam was His week 2 project.
OldJG wrote:
OldJG response: Nice try. Deflect. Won't work.
\What deflection? You have clearly violated God's rules regarding the Sabbath. like you keep saying, it's our duty to point these things out. When do you want to schedule your stoning?

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#15146 May 12, 2013
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
Their contributions were speculations that were rejected.
You have a bigoted agenda that has failed history and reality in an attempt to justify a sexual defect.
That is not learning, it is denial.
Smile.
snyper wrote:
<quoted text>
On the contrary. Irenaeus was the originator of the tradition of "orthodoxy", and defined most of what your tradition thinks of as heresy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus
Papias was a student of John the Presbyter, the author of your "Gospel According to John". His "Testament" is one of the most historically important documents of all the Patristic writers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papias_of_Hierap...
I have yet to discuss any "sexual defects" with you, I think.
Instead we have been discussing Patristics.
Enjoy. It's a worthwhile listen. The first half is context and history. The second is brilliant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =tddCNY6U77YXX
I was not clear in my response.

I know you disagree with Irenaeus.

I disagree with you about Papias, and that he was a student of John.

I had already started to listen to the video reference, and stopped.

Been there, seen the fruit. That was my point.

You made an interesting comment in our discussion about Sodom. That the most of the Ten Commandments could be termed a violation of hospitality. I agree. In fact, it smacks of Jesus assertion that the WHOLE law is fulfilled in TWO commandments. Without realizing it, you made my point; Sodom's inhospitality expressed an endemic violation of the commandment,'loving others as you love yourself', or violating all the Law.

Which brings us back to Soteriologies. Or as I put it, how does any belief system deal with the problem of sin?

Paul addresses the inability of Jews (man) to fulfill the perfect Law, and God's intervention through His Son.

How do YOU deal with your sin?

Smile.

“KiMare'a the Monster Mutation”

Since: Nov 10

Location hidden

#15147 May 12, 2013
Today is the day where we acknowledge and honor the special place of mothers.

It strikes me as profoundly sad and seriously dangerous that a role so integral to the existence of every single one of us is being discounted and discarded. Once again this week, another effort to remove the terms mother and father from the public sector was announced.

Jesus prophesied this;

Matthew 10:21 (GW)
“Brother will hand over brother to death; a father will hand over his child. Children will rebel against their parents and kill them.

I always assumed that when that prophesy was fulfilled, things would be so violent and difficult that survival would try the deepest of human bonds. I never dreamed that a society would deliberately seek to destroy it. And yet, that is what we find, in the attempt to equate a ss couple to parents.

Without addressing the vast implications of such a action, I simply note the foundational morality regarding mothers and fathers that has been a cross cultural and cross religious practice by healthy societies, the only Commandment that includes a promise;

Exodus 20:12 (GW)
“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live for a long time in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

Every single person has one mother. Only one. Dishonor her to your own peril.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#15148 May 12, 2013
KiMare wrote:
KiMare wrote:
<quoted text>
Their contributions were speculations that were rejected.
You have a bigoted agenda that has failed history and reality in an attempt to justify a sexual defect.
That is not learning, it is denial.
Smile.
<quoted text>
I was not clear in my response.
I know you disagree with Irenaeus.
I disagree with you about Papias, and that he was a student of John.
I had already started to listen to the video reference, and stopped.
Been there, seen the fruit. That was my point.
You made an interesting comment in our discussion about Sodom. That the most of the Ten Commandments could be termed a violation of hospitality. I agree. In fact, it smacks of Jesus assertion that the WHOLE law is fulfilled in TWO commandments. Without realizing it, you made my point; Sodom's inhospitality expressed an endemic violation of the commandment,'loving others as you love yourself', or violating all the Law.
Which brings us back to Soteriologies. Or as I put it, how does any belief system deal with the problem of sin?
Paul addresses the inability of Jews (man) to fulfill the perfect Law, and God's intervention through His Son.
How do YOU deal with your sin?
Smile.
You really need to get through the last half of that vid. Gordon's elucidation of the Pharisee mindset, and Yeshua's refutation of it, is very enlightening. His resolution of one of the most glaring apparent contradictions in the "gospels" is perfect.

The "perfect law" is actually easy, according to Yeshua. Pharisaic Law is impossible. It's the "perfection" that is part and parcel of the lie. "Perfections" was NEVER required.

" ... Who told you that you were naked?..."

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#15149 May 12, 2013
KiMare wrote:
Today is the day where we acknowledge and honor the special place of mothers.
It strikes me as profoundly sad and seriously dangerous that a role so integral to the existence of every single one of us is being discounted and discarded. Once again this week, another effort to remove the terms mother and father from the public sector was announced.
Jesus prophesied this;
Matthew 10:21 (GW)
“Brother will hand over brother to death; a father will hand over his child. Children will rebel against their parents and kill them.
I always assumed that when that prophesy was fulfilled, things would be so violent and difficult that survival would try the deepest of human bonds. I never dreamed that a society would deliberately seek to destroy it. And yet, that is what we find, in the attempt to equate a ss couple to parents.
Without addressing the vast implications of such a action, I simply note the foundational morality regarding mothers and fathers that has been a cross cultural and cross religious practice by healthy societies, the only Commandment that includes a promise;
Exodus 20:12 (GW)
“Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live for a long time in the land the LORD your God is giving you.
Every single person has one mother. Only one. Dishonor her to your own peril.
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