Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against ...

Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against Church?

There are 16101 comments on the news.yahoo.com story from Apr 27, 2009, titled Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against Church?. In it, news.yahoo.com reports that:

The trouble they see is not just an America where general support for gay marriage will have driven a wedge between churches and the world, but between churches themselves.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at news.yahoo.com.

Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1094 Jan 27, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
"If Jesus ever said anything about homosexuality, it is not recorded in the Bible, even mistranslated.
Jesus certainly did speak against homosexuality in Matt 5:32 and 19:9 where He uses the word "unchastity" and "immorality" which includes adultery, incest, premarital infidelity, homosexuality, bestiality and any other sexual conduct condemned in the OT.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1095 Jan 27, 2013
Many use Matthew 19 as an excuse to assume Jesus only approved of one man, one woman relationships. They fail to read it in context of 1-12...

Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.


"According to Jesus, born eunuchs are exempt from the Adam and Eve style heterosexual marriage paradigm.

Eunuchs so born from their mother’s womb. These eunuchs, according to Jesus, were born that way. They did not make a personal choice to be eunuchs and they were not physically castrated by men. Some Christians believe these men were homosexual eunuchs." http://www.gaychristian101.com/Homosexual-Eun...
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1096 Jan 27, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, no it doesn't and if you think that, well, that is your issue!!!
And I NEVER used the word "universe"......mayb e if you'd learn to read instead words posted instead of inject words you think I meant to say......might help you comprehend better!!!
What has my personal religious beliefs have to do with Education? Again, read the words I wrote, you might not look like an idiot!!!
Again, your claims of believing in a fantasy is just that....YOUR CLAIM.......funny how I supposedly believe in a fantasy, but your religions beliefs are fact because you believe the bible is a historical document.........somehow, it seems you are the one believing in fiction!!!
You certainly did use the word "universe" in your post at 1076.
If we took your idea about rejecting "formalized religion and apply it education we would not have any true knowledge. When there are "formalized" institutions we have a better chance of understanding reality than those like yourself who go out on their own and make things up to believe in. Your "personal religious beliefs" is just an opinion like liking flavors of ice cream. It could never be considered knowledge.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1097 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus certainly did speak against homosexuality in Matt 5:32 and 19:9 where He uses the word "unchastity" and "immorality" which includes adultery, incest, premarital infidelity, homosexuality, bestiality and any other sexual conduct condemned in the OT.
That is your interpretation. You must add content, based on your own prejudice, to reach that conclusion.

Notice too, all you list except homosexuality, are things we know today to be inherently harmful, while committed adult relationships based on mutual love and respect harm no one.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1098 Jan 27, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
You'd have better luck banging your head on the wall then discussing anything of logic with Jeff.....I mean he believes the bible is an historical document proven true by the bible!!!!
You got it wrong again hon. The Bible has been shown to be historically true by historical methods that are used in the study of history.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1099 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
If God created people homosexuals their sexual organs would complement each other like it does with the male and female.
Its not a question of loving but loving in a righteous way. Not all what is claimed "love" is right. It can be destructive.
The plumbing argument is convenient, but irrational. Without going into details, clearly same sex couples find ways to make it work, and there are many options including frottage.

Committed adult same sex relationships based on mutual love and respect harm no one.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1100 Jan 27, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
That is your interpretation. You must add content, based on your own prejudice, to reach that conclusion.
Notice too, all you list except homosexuality, are things we know today to be inherently harmful, while committed adult relationships based on mutual love and respect harm no one.
That interpretation is not on based on prejudice but on what scholars tells us what is meant when Jesus said this.
Homosexuality is inherently harmful. Consider this from the CDC:
"Gay and bisexual men — referred to in CDC surveillance systems as men who have sex with men (MSM) of all races continue to be the risk group most severely affected by HIV. CDC’s most recent data show that between 2006 and 2009,
the number of new infections that occur each year increased among young MSM — driven by an alarming 48 percent
increase among young, black MSM 13 to 29 years old. These data clearly show the urgent need to expand access to proven
HIV prevention programs for gay and bisexual men, and to develop new approaches to fight HIV in this population.
A Snapshot
t MSM account for nearly half of the 1.1 million people living with HIV in the United States (52%, or an estimated
592,100 total persons).
t MSM account for more than half of all new HIV infections in the United States each year (61%, or an estimated 29,300
infections).
t While CDC estimates that only 4 percent of men in the United States are MSM, the rate of new HIV diagnoses among
MSM in the United States is more than 44 times that of other men (range: 522 – 989 per 100,000 MSM vs. 12 per
100,000 other men)." http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/2012...

So don't claim homosexual sexual practices are not harmful when in reality they are very harmful.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#1101 Jan 27, 2013
Born_Again_Christian wrote:
Tony,
No original manuscripts? The Dead sea scrolls are original manuscripts so where do you get off saying there are none?
The Bible is our guide book in living our life for Christ as a New Testament Christian.
You apparently are not a Christian cause the Bible says all scripture is inspired by God. So you calling God a liar?
A homosexual cannot be a Christian unless they come out of that way of living and ask God to help them overcome their sexual sin.
You may be married in the eyes of your state, but God says you are not cause you are married to the wrong sex. God made male and female.
<quoted text>
There is no sin against love, none. Yes, God made male and female, who gave birth at some point to gay children. It isn't a sin to be what God created you to be.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1102 Jan 27, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
<quoted text>
The plumbing argument is convenient, but irrational. Without going into details, clearly same sex couples find ways to make it work, and there are many options including frottage.
Committed adult same sex relationships based on mutual love and respect harm no one.
The "plumbing" argument is an argument from design. Men and women are designed to complement each sexually. Same sex people are not. We know this from the many diseases from gay sex. The body is not designed for this kind of sex.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1103 Jan 27, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no sin against love, none. Yes, God made male and female, who gave birth at some point to gay children. It isn't a sin to be what God created you to be.
If people were created for same sex activities then the "plumbing" would match the desires. Secondly, there is no evidence people are born gay. There has yet to be found a gay gene.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1104 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
That interpretation is not on based on prejudice but on what scholars tells us what is meant when Jesus said this.
Homosexuality is inherently harmful. Consider this from the CDC:
"Gay and bisexual men — referred to in CDC surveillance systems as men who have sex with men (MSM) of all races continue to be the risk group most severely affected by HIV. CDC’s most recent data show that between 2006 and 2009,
the number of new infections that occur each year increased among young MSM — driven by an alarming 48 percent
increase among young, black MSM 13 to 29 years old. These data clearly show the urgent need to expand access to proven
HIV prevention programs for gay and bisexual men, and to develop new approaches to fight HIV in this population.
A Snapshot
t MSM account for nearly half of the 1.1 million people living with HIV in the United States (52%, or an estimated
592,100 total persons).
t MSM account for more than half of all new HIV infections in the United States each year (61%, or an estimated 29,300
infections).
t While CDC estimates that only 4 percent of men in the United States are MSM, the rate of new HIV diagnoses among
MSM in the United States is more than 44 times that of other men (range: 522 – 989 per 100,000 MSM vs. 12 per
100,000 other men)." http://www.cdc.gov/nchhstp/newsroom/docs/2012...
So don't claim homosexual sexual practices are not harmful when in reality they are very harmful.
Many other scholars disagree with your chosen interpretation and added meaning. It is not what Jesus said.

Your HIV stats demonstrate the danger of promiscuous and unprotected sex. They do not demonstrate any harm as a result of committed relationships based on mutual love and respect.

Use of disease transmission information is intended to demonize, dehumanize, and promote irrational fear in order to justify causing further harm. It implies all gay people are infected, when most are not. Yet even misleading information about disease transmission supports the importance of encouraging committed relationships through marriage.

It also demonstrates the importance of accurate and honest education about disease transmission and risk reduction. Anyone engaging in sex can catch any disease, but only if exposed to the infectious agent. They need to know the risks of having multiple partners, and how to prevent disease transmission.

It fails to provide an excuse for legal discrimination and the continued promotion of the irrational prejudice that leads many to self destructive behavior, including high risk sex.

It also fails to consider gay women are the lowest risk group for disease transmission.

It fails to provide and excuse for punishing gay people because it requires ignoring straight people of both sexes are also at risk for all of the same things used to demonize gay people of both sexes.

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#1105 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You certainly did use the word "universe" in your post at 1076.
If we took your idea about rejecting "formalized religion and apply it education we would not have any true knowledge. When there are "formalized" institutions we have a better chance of understanding reality than those like yourself who go out on their own and make things up to believe in. Your "personal religious beliefs" is just an opinion like liking flavors of ice cream. It could never be considered knowledge.
Sorry, you're right I did!!!

But you CAN'T take what I feel about formalized religion and try to apply to Education.......and even if you did, we would still be able to gain knowledge from the life experiences of those who educate and also by the curriculum that schools follow!!!

Again, there is a difference between one's religious beliefs and institutionalized education......why because their is reality being taught.......with religion, THERE IS NO REALITY being taught, but faith!!!

Do you have life experience? or formalized education? Do you have only a high school education? or higher education? If higher education.....how high? Community College? Undergraduate? or Post-Graduate?

See, that would make a difference in how you see things!!!

“A JOURNEY OF A THOUSAND MILES”

Since: Aug 08

MUST BEGIN WITH A SINGLE STEP!

#1106 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
If people were created for same sex activities then the "plumbing" would match the desires. Secondly, there is no evidence people are born gay. There has yet to be found a gay gene.
And there is NO EVIDENCE that says a person can't be born Gay.......you are right, there is NO "GAY" gene, there is also not a "straight" gene......but there is evidence that shows genetics, biology, hormones and environmental factors do play a part in one's sexual orientation.....and that these are taking place inside the womb!!!

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1107 Jan 27, 2013
Born_Again_Christian wrote:
Tony,
No original manuscripts? The Dead sea scrolls are original manuscripts so where do you get off saying there are none?
The Bible is our guide book in living our life for Christ as a New Testament Christian.
You apparently are not a Christian cause the Bible says all scripture is inspired by God. So you calling God a liar?
A homosexual cannot be a Christian unless they come out of that way of living and ask God to help them overcome their sexual sin.
You may be married in the eyes of your state, but God says you are not cause you are married to the wrong sex. God made male and female.
<quoted text>
Oh boy, another Einstein.

The Dead Sea Scrolls are not the original bible. They are copies, and they are incomplete. Do your homework.

There is no such thing as "the" bible. There are many versions out there. Everybody thinks they have the right one, which is comical.

God could have chosen to keep one intact version of the bible (maybe one in each language) but He didn't, and we know that for a fact. Why not? That's for you to pray over. I already have.

I have no problem using the versions around today as something of a "guide book" but not as a "rule book." You can never be 100% confident in what they are saying unless it is repeated over and over, clearly and consistently (such as the stuff about not killing. It would be logical to conclude that is probably accurate.)

I'm not your teacher. You need to research who put "the" bible together, what were their qualifications, when was it done, and what books were included or thrown out and why.

The truth is the truth, whether you know it or not.

If you are sincere in your faith, you want the truth - not the truth you wish was the truth - but the actual truth, whatever it may be.

Stop taking the lazy way out and making translators do your thinking for you.

Thankfully, you don't get to decide whether or not I am a Christian or whether or not I am in God's favor. You have no idea.

And yes, we were married by a Reverend before God.

Your opinion doesn't matter.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1108 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
If people were created for same sex activities then the "plumbing" would match the desires. Secondly, there is no evidence people are born gay. There has yet to be found a gay gene.
Again, without going into details, the plumbing works quite well.

We don't yet understand how all of the genes act and interact with each other, and with other biochemicals.

What we do know, is that gay people have always existed. Why is hardly important, except for those who wish to harm them.

“Research over several decades has demonstrated that sexual orientation ranges along a continuum, from exclusive attraction to the other sex to exclusive attraction to the same sex. Despite the persistence of stereotypes that portray lesbian, gay, and bisexual people as disturbed, several decades of research and clinical experience have led all mainstream medical and mental health organizations in this country to conclude that these orientations represent normal forms of human experience. Lesbian, gay, and bisexual relationships are normal forms of human bonding.”(American Psychological Association)

Again, "all mainstream medical and mental health organizations" agree.

Yet even if you ignore the science and believe sexual orientation is a choice, remember we protect choice of religious belief.

You provide no legitimate governmental interest sufficient for denial of equal treatment as required by the constitution.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1109 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
If God created people homosexuals their sexual organs would complement each other like it does with the male and female.
Its not a question of loving but loving in a righteous way. Not all what is claimed "love" is right. It can be destructive.
That's nonsense.

That's like saying God didn't make infertile men because it doesn't make sense. Or God didn't make redheads because red hair has no function. Or God didn't make kids born with no legs because it doesn't seem right.

Who the hell are you to second guess God?

Why is it so beyond the scope of your narrow reasoning (and clearly inferior brain) to think hmmm...maybe this is just one of those things we will never understand - why does God make ugly people if they are less likely to reproduce? Why does God allow some people to die in their teens, before they have had a chance to procreate? That can't be right, because everyone has to procreate, right? See how stupid that sounds?

Maybe for whatever reason, I'm not meant to have kids. Maybe my genetic makeup is going off in a direction that would eventually not be a good way to go, and so nature has stopped me from having kids. Maybe I'm meant to raise someone else's kids, which is obviously filling a societal need. Maybe I'll cure a disease (wait - you mean there are other worthy things you can do in life besides procreate? Ummm...yes. Ever hear of nuns?)

It is not for you to question what God made. That was my furthest point from God in my life, was when I was questioning how He could make me this way. Not just questioning, but outright defying. It was the one prayer I prayed improperly. I asked for MY will be done, rather than THY will be done, because it would have been easier for me to be straight. It wasn't until I realized that prayer was in contradiction to all my other prayers in which I trusted God and knew He had a purpose for everything else that seemed bad at first - losing a job, etc. I trusted Him on those things but not this thing. On this thing, I wanted my way and my earthly desires.

Guess what - what I wanted did not matter. God made me this way. He has a reason, and I trust Him. And ever since accepting that, I have felt much closer to God, and He has blessed me and my husband with a wonderful life.

People who live against God don't have wonderful lives IMO. They are burdened with struggles and so forth. My struggles ended when I learned to fully trust God.

You would do well to do the same, and stop being an arrogant ass. You will never pray over this issue as much as I have.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1110 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Jesus certainly did speak against homosexuality in Matt 5:32 and 19:9 where He uses the word "unchastity" and "immorality" which includes adultery, incest, premarital infidelity, homosexuality, bestiality and any other sexual conduct condemned in the OT.
Really? How do you know the word was really "unchastity?"

It was translated from ancient languages into other languages and then eventually translated into English. And we don't even have the original. We are starting off with a translated copy to begin with.

When you are talking about one word like that, isolated and not repeated over and over, you'd better tread carefully before you use that one word against fellow citizens.

This is why we don't rule over other people based on our interpretations of our religions in this country.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1111 Jan 27, 2013
Not Yet Equal wrote:
Many use Matthew 19 as an excuse to assume Jesus only approved of one man, one woman relationships. They fail to read it in context of 1-12...
Matthew 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
"According to Jesus, born eunuchs are exempt from the Adam and Eve style heterosexual marriage paradigm.
Eunuchs so born from their mother’s womb. These eunuchs, according to Jesus, were born that way. They did not make a personal choice to be eunuchs and they were not physically castrated by men. Some Christians believe these men were homosexual eunuchs." http://www.gaychristian101.com/Homosexual-Eun...
And yet, these same people who use one word or phrase here or there to justify legal discrimination against gay people have no problem with the fact that the state recognizes divorces for all kinds of reasons other than "fornication," and those who would be considered not divorced in "the" bible and committing adultery are still married by the State without question.

And these crazy people arguing against my marriage don't argue against that.

Ultra hypocrites.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1112 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You certainly did use the word "universe" in your post at 1076.
If we took your idea about rejecting "formalized religion and apply it education we would not have any true knowledge. When there are "formalized" institutions we have a better chance of understanding reality than those like yourself who go out on their own and make things up to believe in. Your "personal religious beliefs" is just an opinion like liking flavors of ice cream. It could never be considered knowledge.
Who taught you to parrot that crap? I know it's not original thought.

It's also total BS. The stuff taught in schools can be proven for the most part.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1113 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You got it wrong again hon. The Bible has been shown to be historically true by historical methods that are used in the study of history.
LOL! Prove it. Because I have studied this and (spoiler alert!) I know you're wrong.

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