Will Gay Marriage Pit Church Against Church?

Apr 27, 2009 Full story: news.yahoo.com 16,105

The trouble they see is not just an America where general support for gay marriage will have driven a wedge between churches and the world, but between churches themselves.

Full Story

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#1071 Jan 27, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
lolol.... I know what you're referencing...lol. And as usual you're memory is taking what I said out of context. I never said "To much love drives kids and or adults to suicide." Never said it.
I took the following from a web site giving information about suicide and dos and don'ts for someone displaying or has displayed suicide tendencies.
"But a suicidal person can be so sensitive, that ANYthing could set them off, even(someone)being nice and trying to help!"
Well that extends to being loved to much to.
The point I was making that you're taking out of context, is a person that is already depressed and deciding to take their life, even being loved to much can be the catapult for them to finally do it. Why? Because severely depressed people don't want to be loved and paid attention to when in their depression. That works against having a depressed state of mind that at present enables one to want to take their life. Get it?
There is no way I stated in any way or fashion someone was all happy and well and loved and cared for and woke up one day, suddenly depressed that they were to loved and cared for and instantly became depressed and killed them self. I never said any such thing.
Prove other wise if you can, I'd love to see that statement!
Liar. You said it, and you said it as a rebuttal to my statement that gay teens do not kill themselves because of too much love and support(which you were saying they do). I'm not going to go digging back through months of posts to prove you wrong. I know you said it, because it is the type of ignorant thing you would say to support the perverted Mormon church. Thee stupidity that has come from you in support of that sick twisted religion has been amazing, truly.

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#1072 Jan 27, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
I do love the way you handled Fritz.......he's supposed to be some big shot lawyer who believes he knows how SCOTUS is going to rule.
Wishing you and yours a Happy weekend!!!
Snuck back to take a peek-I always get a kick out of some of the post comment potshots some of them take when they feel the coast is clear and saw you post...thanks, Darling, we will-going skiings today-and much blessing and happiness to you also.
Besides being a big fish in a little pond I'm not sure what Fritz is. I do know when Mama makes these little white boys around here cry they go running to Fritz to have him put the mean old lesbian in her place-I suppose I should be flattered. And thankfully, in spite of leaving out a few words, typos and misspellings hopefully I hold my own. There is such a gulf in our starting points I don't think they can ever be reconciled: the Fritzes of the world see everything in catagories, which they use to insulate themselves from the humanity of any person or issues, because if they if they didn't they'd have to be accountable for the real misery,the human cost of of their so-called pricipled stands. For them ideas will be more important than people, and their self-righteous assumption of the role of being judge, jury and executioner more important than the principles of compassion or justice. When you start with a base-line that mankind is inherently evil and have to be whipped into compliance, and your religion has somehow raised you above human frailty, then contempt for the bulk of humanity in all its weakness just naturally follows. Hon, that's a place I just cannot go, and if this is what their brand of religion calls for I want NOTHING to do with it. I come from a place place of considering the beam in my own eye, and I feel that the limitations on me for the mere fact of being human disqualifies me from being that judge of my fellow man in that large sense. I realize that every one of those numbers they tout has a name, face, family and a story. I also believe that given postive reinforcement, given real opportunity, nine times out of ten I'm going to see the person avail themself of it and become an asset to themselves and others. In my real life I advocate on the behalf of juveniles, I facilitate battered wymyns' groups, I do a lot of work with families, I put my ethics in practice with real poeple on real streets and have had this starting place validated time and time again. I'm a flawed old dyke running in the real world, and if Jesus wants me to hang on the cross my sense of hope in the innate ability of people to to good if given a chance, then Jesus is going to have to hang on the cross without me.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1073 Jan 27, 2013
John from Texas wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, Jeff's a genius!
Thank you.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#1074 Jan 27, 2013
Sherlayne wrote:
<quoted text>
This IS the Catholic forum, isn't it? I don't know of any other. And - you're welcome :)
This must be in several different forums because I am posting to it from the Christian forum........and I did notice it in the Gay/Lesbian forum as well......hope all is well with you:-)

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#1075 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you.
Ummmm, John wasn't meaning his comment to be a compliment, but a dig on ya........lol!!!

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#1076 Jan 27, 2013
RubyTheDyke wrote:
<quoted text>
Snuck back to take a peek-I always get a kick out of some of the post comment potshots some of them take when they feel the coast is clear and saw you post...thanks, Darling, we will-going skiings today-and much blessing and happiness to you also.
Besides being a big fish in a little pond I'm not sure what Fritz is. I do know when Mama makes these little white boys around here cry they go running to Fritz to have him put the mean old lesbian in her place-I suppose I should be flattered. And thankfully, in spite of leaving out a few words, typos and misspellings hopefully I hold my own. There is such a gulf in our starting points I don't think they can ever be reconciled: the Fritzes of the world see everything in catagories, which they use to insulate themselves from the humanity of any person or issues, because if they if they didn't they'd have to be accountable for the real misery,the human cost of of their so-called pricipled stands. For them ideas will be more important than people, and their self-righteous assumption of the role of being judge, jury and executioner more important than the principles of compassion or justice. When you start with a base-line that mankind is inherently evil and have to be whipped into compliance, and your religion has somehow raised you above human frailty, then contempt for the bulk of humanity in all its weakness just naturally follows. Hon, that's a place I just cannot go, and if this is what their brand of religion calls for I want NOTHING to do with it. I come from a place place of considering the beam in my own eye, and I feel that the limitations on me for the mere fact of being human disqualifies me from being that judge of my fellow man in that large sense. I realize that every one of those numbers they tout has a name, face, family and a story. I also believe that given postive reinforcement, given real opportunity, nine times out of ten I'm going to see the person avail themself of it and become an asset to themselves and others. In my real life I advocate on the behalf of juveniles, I facilitate battered wymyns' groups, I do a lot of work with families, I put my ethics in practice with real poeple on real streets and have had this starting place validated time and time again. I'm a flawed old dyke running in the real world, and if Jesus wants me to hang on the cross my sense of hope in the innate ability of people to to good if given a chance, then Jesus is going to have to hang on the cross without me.
You're philosophy is not much different than my own.....and if what some of these folks who call themselves Christians are.......I want nothing to do with it. I left formalized religion years ago and I mean over 20 years ago.........just because like you, I am but a small fish in a large ocean.......I'll let God or whatever Higher Power handle the universe......all I can do is handle my small area........and even that can be a handful at times.

Enjoy your activities today........and continue to post your words of wisdom.......they don't all fall on deaf ears:-)
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1077 Jan 27, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
You're philosophy is not much different than my own.....and if what some of these folks who call themselves Christians are.......I want nothing to do with it. I left formalized religion years ago and I mean over 20 years ago.........just because like you, I am but a small fish in a large ocean.......I'll let God or whatever Higher Power handle the universe......all I can do is handle my small area........and even that can be a handful at times.
Enjoy your activities today........and continue to post your words of wisdom.......they don't all fall on deaf ears:-)
You left "formalized religion" and now have no way to know what you believe is true or not. The idea of God being a "Higher Power" is nonsense. There is no evidence for this.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1078 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You left "formalized religion" and now have no way to know what you believe is true or not. The idea of God being a "Higher Power" is nonsense. There is no evidence for this.
There are people God gave the good sense to think for themselves in this world, and there are followers like you.

Without formalized religion, you have no way to know if what you believe is true?

That's hysterical, and yet another sign you are a beginner at best.

When you have an active and fulfilling prayerful relationship with God, you don't worry about "if what you believe is true."

That's the attitude of scared people who lack faith, like you.

God isn't playing "gotcha" with us.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#1080 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
You left "formalized religion" and now have no way to know what you believe is true or not. The idea of God being a "Higher Power" is nonsense. There is no evidence for this.
You really MUST read the post before you reply and make an AZZ out of yourself.......I DID NOT SAY OR IMPLY THAT GOD WAS A HIGHER POWER, though there are some who do believe that way.......but here is what I did say, "I'll let God or whatever Higher Power handle it".

Leaving formalized religion was a good thing for me, and I do know that what I believe is right and true for me:-)

Unlike you, I don't need any evidence to know that what I believe is true........you seem to think that all the evidence you need comes from a book written by mere mortal men........and yet, you question my beliefs........to funny!!!
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1081 Jan 27, 2013
NorCal Native wrote:
<quoted text>
You really MUST read the post before you reply and make an AZZ out of yourself.......I DID NOT SAY OR IMPLY THAT GOD WAS A HIGHER POWER, though there are some who do believe that way.......but here is what I did say, "I'll let God or whatever Higher Power handle it".
Leaving formalized religion was a good thing for me, and I do know that what I believe is right and true for me:-)
Unlike you, I don't need any evidence to know that what I believe is true........you seem to think that all the evidence you need comes from a book written by mere mortal men........and yet, you question my beliefs........to funny!!!
To say"...I'll let God or whatever Higher Power handle the universe....." does imply God is a "higher power".
Think what would happen if people applied your reasoning to education. We would have all kinds of crazy contradicting ideas presented as truth. There would be no way to have checks and balances to determine what is true and what is not. This is exactly the position you are in. You believe in a fantasy because there is no evidence for it. Its sad.

Don't feel alone though. Tony is in the same boat. He doesn't like it when facts show him to be wrong so he dismisses. Its tragic.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1083 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
To say"...I'll let God or whatever Higher Power handle the universe....." does imply God is a "higher power".
Think what would happen if people applied your reasoning to education. We would have all kinds of crazy contradicting ideas presented as truth. There would be no way to have checks and balances to determine what is true and what is not. This is exactly the position you are in. You believe in a fantasy because there is no evidence for it. Its sad.
Don't feel alone though. Tony is in the same boat. He doesn't like it when facts show him to be wrong so he dismisses. Its tragic.
This is comical. Clearly you don't know what "facts" are.

Fact: there is no original copy of "the" bible available.

Fact: there is no perfect translation.

Fact: you're worshiping a book as an idol.

Fact: you're a sad kind of person who has to have all rules clearly spelled out for you (being told exactly what to do) or you can't survive. That's pathetic. You think that's what God wanted? Puppets?

We are here to learn and grow and help each other. Not to see who can follow most closely to what would be an extraordinarily complicated rule book.

Nobody agrees on the rules. Some of you idiots think you don't even have to keep the Sabbath anymore. There are so many ideas and interpretations, and the notion that even your interpretation is 100% correct is just arrogant and very likely blasphemous.

It's very convenient to take the easy way out and say, "My particular version of "the" bible is the complete Word of God and I never have to think for myself." But that's a cop-out. What good are you to God?

Once again, start praying more. The first prayer of use to you would be to ask God to open your eyes. You're completely on the wrong track.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1084 Jan 27, 2013
p.s. saying "or whatever higher power" is simply a way of showing respect to people who may be reading this who do not believe in God.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1085 Jan 27, 2013
Tony C wrote:
<quoted text>
This is comical. Clearly you don't know what "facts" are.
Fact: there is no original copy of "the" bible available.
Fact: there is no perfect translation.
Fact: you're worshiping a book as an idol.
Fact: you're a sad kind of person who has to have all rules clearly spelled out for you (being told exactly what to do) or you can't survive. That's pathetic. You think that's what God wanted? Puppets?
We are here to learn and grow and help each other. Not to see who can follow most closely to what would be an extraordinarily complicated rule book.
Nobody agrees on the rules. Some of you idiots think you don't even have to keep the Sabbath anymore. There are so many ideas and interpretations, and the notion that even your interpretation is 100% correct is just arrogant and very likely blasphemous.
It's very convenient to take the easy way out and say, "My particular version of "the" bible is the complete Word of God and I never have to think for myself." But that's a cop-out. What good are you to God?
Once again, start praying more. The first prayer of use to you would be to ask God to open your eyes. You're completely on the wrong track.
Do you realize there are no ancient original manuscripts for any work in the ancient world? The NT is by far the best attested work in the ancient world. Nothing comes close in comparison. Scholars are quite confident that with the thousands of copied manuscripts they have 99.9999% of the original.
The Scriptures are rich in telling us how we are to live. It gives principled warnings of what to avoid and exhortations and teachings to follow. Only the Scriptures are the Word of God.
Prayer is important. So is repentance. You need to repent of your engagement of homosexual practices that are destroying you. The Scripture is clear that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. it is you who is completely on the wrong track.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1086 Jan 27, 2013
"If Jesus ever said anything about homosexuality, it is not recorded in the Bible, even mistranslated. He did, however, speak extensively on God's unconditional love. Yet instead of dwelling on biblical love, Christians have historically been more concerned with obscure passages of Levitical cleanliness codes and Paul's misunderstood comments in Romans. Instead of focusing on the incredible injustice and hatred demonstrated by Christians and others, tying to deny homosexuals even basic civil rights, people appear more concerned with the specific homosexual acts between consenting adults who are naturally have a homosexual orientation. As James B. Nelson notes, the Bible more clearly advocates a "love ethic" rather than a "sex ethic."

I Cor 6:9, no way refers to homosexuality. The original Greek word often quoted as sexual immorality, Paul used was "porneia" which means "a harlot for hire". In Corinth in the temples of Venus, the principal deity of Corinth, where Christians went to worship, a thousand public prostitutes were kept at public expense to glorify and act as surrogates for the fertility Gods. This sex with the pagan Gods is what Paul was talking about - fornication is an admitted mistranslation and has nothing to do with gays or singles sex. This rendering reflected the bias of the translators rather than an accurate translation of Paul's words to a culture of 2000 years ago worshipping pagan sex gods.

Romans 1:26-27 mentions homosexual acts performed by people who are clearly described as heterosexual. The men in the NT patriarchal culture exerted dominance not only over women, but over younger males as well. The nature of homosexual acts in the Bible are so very different from what we know as homosexuality today that the passages have no application to today's homosexuality. Such practices as in NT times simply no longer exist. Alleged references to homosexuality in I Corinthians and I Timothy are the inventions of anti-gay translators. They are not in the original Greek texts." (Rev.Dr. Mel White)

The word "homosexual" wasn't even invented until 1869. When you see it in the bible, you know it is a modern mistranslation and misinterpretation of the original texts.

"What the Bible forbids is acts of lust, rape, idolatry, violation of religious purity obligations, or pederasty, but no condemnation of homosexuality in relationships of mutual respect and love. "On the other hand, the Bible pointedly celebrates instances of same-sex emotional intimacy, a fact often overlooked by fearful homophobic readers." James B. Nelson, Professor of Christian Ethics, United Theological Seminary

Yet Jesus told us:

John 13:34: A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

John 15:12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

Luke 6:37: "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Matthew 7:12: So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

Meanwhile, a few mistranslated verses continue to b used to justify ignoring the Gloden Rule, causing needless suffering and death, here and around the world.

Since: Jun 11

AOL

#1087 Jan 27, 2013
Fear of the unknown is a powerful tool, used by those who want to maintain otherwise scientifically unsupportable prejudices.

No religious groups are required to recognize marriage equality or even accept gay people in their congregations. They can discriminate any way they choose, and they do.

This first amendment principal has been upheld by the courts and is so old, it is settled law.

Yet some of the states that have passed equality, have restated that principal in the law and made it clear no religious group has to perform same sex marriages. Recently, a church in the south refused to allow a black couple who were members of their congregation to get married in their own church. No legal problem. No law was violated.

But religious groups that do recognize marriage equality are restricted from practicing their religious beliefs as they see fit, by laws that restrict marriage equality. No religious groups are harmed acceptance of equality, but only by denial of equality.

“equality for ALL means ALL”

Since: Jan 07

Fort Lauderdale FL

#1088 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you realize there are no ancient original manuscripts for any work in the ancient world? The NT is by far the best attested work in the ancient world. Nothing comes close in comparison. Scholars are quite confident that with the thousands of copied manuscripts they have 99.9999% of the original.
The Scriptures are rich in telling us how we are to live. It gives principled warnings of what to avoid and exhortations and teachings to follow. Only the Scriptures are the Word of God.
Prayer is important. So is repentance. You need to repent of your engagement of homosexual practices that are destroying you. The Scripture is clear that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. it is you who is completely on the wrong track.
Yes, that is my point. There are no original manuscripts.

So you know nothing. You really want to go by "close enough" when talking about the Word of God?

Don't you want to be absolutely certain you are doing what He wants? You claim to want that, yet, you suspend all logic and worship a book as an idol instead. There is absolutely no evidence that any version of a bible on earth is the 100% intact, perfectly translated Word of God.

Therefore, to claim YOU know what God wants for someone else is arrogance.

And you, of all people, so unintelligent, we're supposed to believe you know what's what? Get real.

You live by fear. I live by faith. Big difference.

And don't dare claim you know what God wants me to do. I am so certain that God put me and my husband together for a reason that I'll accept going to Hell if I'm wrong.

And given that, it makes absolutely no sense that He would want you to interfere in what He orchestrated.

I am not meant to have children. I have no problem with that whatsoever. My husband and I may or may not foster one day. But in the meantime, He has given us great joy in putting us together to take care of each other til death do us part.

There is nothing you can ever say to scare me out of that, because I know better. I am very content and secure in my life, my faith, and my marriage. You can't shake that.

And yet I have to question your bizarre behavior. Because I may be personally against certain things, but I don't feel the motivation to seek those people out and tell them I think what they are doing is wrong. I think there is something wrong with you that makes you do that.

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#1089 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
To say"...I'll let God or whatever Higher Power handle the universe....." does imply God is a "higher power".
Think what would happen if people applied your reasoning to education. We would have all kinds of crazy contradicting ideas presented as truth. There would be no way to have checks and balances to determine what is true and what is not. This is exactly the position you are in. You believe in a fantasy because there is no evidence for it. Its sad.
Don't feel alone though. Tony is in the same boat. He doesn't like it when facts show him to be wrong so he dismisses. Its tragic.
Actually, no it doesn't and if you think that, well, that is your issue!!!

And I NEVER used the word "universe"......mayb e if you'd learn to read instead words posted instead of inject words you think I meant to say......might help you comprehend better!!!

What has my personal religious beliefs have to do with Education? Again, read the words I wrote, you might not look like an idiot!!!

Again, your claims of believing in a fantasy is just that....YOUR CLAIM.......funny how I supposedly believe in a fantasy, but your religions beliefs are fact because you believe the bible is a historical document.........somehow, it seems you are the one believing in fiction!!!

“TAKIA AND TA TONKA”

Since: Aug 08

HAPPY TOGETHER!!!

#1090 Jan 27, 2013
Tony C wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, that is my point. There are no original manuscripts.
So you know nothing. You really want to go by "close enough" when talking about the Word of God?
Don't you want to be absolutely certain you are doing what He wants? You claim to want that, yet, you suspend all logic and worship a book as an idol instead. There is absolutely no evidence that any version of a bible on earth is the 100% intact, perfectly translated Word of God.
Therefore, to claim YOU know what God wants for someone else is arrogance.
And you, of all people, so unintelligent, we're supposed to believe you know what's what? Get real.
You live by fear. I live by faith. Big difference.
And don't dare claim you know what God wants me to do. I am so certain that God put me and my husband together for a reason that I'll accept going to Hell if I'm wrong.
And given that, it makes absolutely no sense that He would want you to interfere in what He orchestrated.
I am not meant to have children. I have no problem with that whatsoever. My husband and I may or may not foster one day. But in the meantime, He has given us great joy in putting us together to take care of each other til death do us part.
There is nothing you can ever say to scare me out of that, because I know better. I am very content and secure in my life, my faith, and my marriage. You can't shake that.
And yet I have to question your bizarre behavior. Because I may be personally against certain things, but I don't feel the motivation to seek those people out and tell them I think what they are doing is wrong. I think there is something wrong with you that makes you do that.
You'd have better luck banging your head on the wall then discussing anything of logic with Jeff.....I mean he believes the bible is an historical document proven true by the bible!!!!
Quest

Woodford, VA

#1091 Jan 27, 2013
Jeff wrote:
<quoted text>
........You need to repent of your engagement of homosexual practices that are destroying you. The Scripture is clear that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. it is you who is completely on the wrong track.
So God creates us as gay, blesses us with all of the same strengths, weakness, desires, and ability and need to love and be loved that he gave everyone else.

Then, you believe that while He smiles upon heterosexuals when but gleefully condemns gay people for loving the soul-mates and families He brings to them?

One big bait and switch GOTCHA!

My God is not such a twisted creature.
Jeff

San Jose, CA

#1093 Jan 27, 2013
Quest wrote:
<quoted text>
So God creates us as gay, blesses us with all of the same strengths, weakness, desires, and ability and need to love and be loved that he gave everyone else.
Then, you believe that while He smiles upon heterosexuals when but gleefully condemns gay people for loving the soul-mates and families He brings to them?
One big bait and switch GOTCHA!
My God is not such a twisted creature.
If God created people homosexuals their sexual organs would complement each other like it does with the male and female.
Its not a question of loving but loving in a righteous way. Not all what is claimed "love" is right. It can be destructive.

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