ADL Denounces Ben Stein's 'Expelled'

[saviorself]

MIDutch wrote:

<quoted text>
Madame/Mr. Saviorself, pardon me for asking, but on what EVIDENCE do you base this assertion? Would you have in your possession secret personal writings by Hitler which basically say, "you know, that Darwin guy was right.'Evolution' says that we have the right to kill anyone who isn't an Aryan German"? Do you have such papers?
Many of Hitler's words are VERY well documented. His writings, his speeches and images (where we can see him praying in church) are readily available to anyone with an internet connection. Heck, I just typed Hitler speeches into the youtube.com search engine and came up with 812 hits. If you understand German you, too, can hear EXACTLY what he says.
So UNLESS you have access to his PERSONAL words and writings, your assertion that "Hitler's actions [should be blamed] on Hitler's interpretation of Science" and that "anybody who truly believes Hitler was a theological person [is] duped by the historical perception of Hitler" is merely your UNSUPPORTED opinion which flies in the face of the available EVIDENCE.

Ms./Mr. Dutch. Quite obviously your interpretation of theology is different than mine. I have never stated once that in humanities history religion has NOT been used as justification for various atrocities, I have states numerous times that the implemented POLICIES of the Nazis regime were not in keeping with a Christian doctrine. In your blind hatred for religion, you will apparently attribute ALL human evil to it. I am willing to play this game, sure. O.k. then, you have managed to explain the mass murder of millions of people in pursuit of a eugenic philosophy as somehow inspired by the bible (you have'nt really, but let's pretend it is so.) So, do you ALSO blame the nighmare of 6 to 12 million dead by the hand of the Khymer Rouge on Christianity? Would you place the blame of 10 million dead during the Chinese purges of Mao Tse TOng on Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism? Would you put the estimate 40 million killed during the Stalinist purges of Stalin on the same somehow? A bit off-topic perhaps, but being as you find it threatening somehow to your beliefs that the Nazis may have had anything OTHER than a religious agenda at the heart of their pursuit for a "perfect society" I am curious as to what other forms of thought may be offensive to apparently deeply entrenched conceptions in regards to the OTHER societies attempts to build the "perfect society" by slaughtering others.

[Wayne]

MIDutch wrote:

<quoted text>
Madame/Mr. Saviorself, pardon me for asking, but on what EVIDENCE do you base this assertion? Would you have in your possession secret personal writings by Hitler which basically say, "you know, that Darwin guy was right.'Evolution' says that we have the right to kill anyone who isn't an Aryan German"? Do you have such papers?
Many of Hitler's words are VERY well documented. His writings, his speeches and images (where we can see him praying in church) are readily available to anyone with an internet connection. Heck, I just typed Hitler speeches into the youtube.com search engine and came up with 812 hits. If you understand German you, too, can hear EXACTLY what he says.
So UNLESS you have access to his PERSONAL words and writings, your assertion that "Hitler's actions [should be blamed] on Hitler's interpretation of Science" and that "anybody who truly believes Hitler was a theological person [is] duped by the historical perception of Hitler" is merely your UNSUPPORTED opinion which flies in the face of the available EVIDENCE.

Do YOU have his personal papers to prove otherwise? Then shut up.

[saviorself]

Feklahr wrote:

<quoted text>
"Evolutionarily speaking", evolution by itself does not call for a "superior" species to "supplant" an "inferior" species.
A large chunk of what is evolutionary science is study within a species of traits that develop that give a species it's own best chance at survival.(Curved beaks, opposable thumbs, etc.)
Furthermore, "survival of the fittest" isn't the black and white issue that some paint it to be. In the wild, a herd of horses do not trample an older, lame horse to death by virtue of it being old and lame. However, in the wild, a slower horse is more likely to be caught by predators and be killed.*That* is Natural Selection.
What Hitler practiced was obscene, and against the laws of nature. Pinning the blame for the actions of a madman on science would be like blaming Edison for Frankenstein's Monster.

out of everything I would like to respond to here, I think I'll stick to, "Frankenstein" was a novel. That means "not real", like the Klingon version of the devil you have here. The Holocaust was very real. Your analogy does'nt impress me as much as some of your more cogent arguments.

[saviorself]

Wayne wrote:

<quoted text>
Do YOU have his personal papers to prove otherwise? Then shut up.

He has a deeply held conviction. If that conviction is challenged, it frightens him, and he must demean the challenge, no matter the cost. Religion is evil, anything that might imply something that he has determined should supplant religion as a guideing doctrine of mankind (evolution, earth science, or even a different KIND of religion if he deems it apporpriate) must be attacked and destroyed. It is understandable. Ultra-religious people do it as well.

[saviorself]

Wayne wrote:

<quoted text>
Do YOU have his personal papers to prove otherwise? Then shut up.

os, she has that conviction. whichever is gender appropeiate for her/him.

[Darwins Stepchild]

Wayne wrote:

<quoted text>
Do YOU have his personal papers to prove otherwise? Then shut up.

That's not the way it works, doofus.

A claim can not be made just because there is no evidence against it. Otherwise, I could claim to be the offspring of the first czar and claim the right to rule Russia.

I know you consider your claim of a god valid because there isn't any proof against it. But this is the real world, not Wayne's fantasy land.

You make a claim, it is YOUR responsibility to provide proof. NOT the responsibility of others to disprove it.

[Darwins Stepchild]

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
He has a deeply held conviction. If that conviction is challenged, it frightens him, and he must demean the challenge, no matter the cost. Religion is evil, anything that might imply something that he has determined should supplant religion as a guideing doctrine of mankind (evolution, earth science, or even a different KIND of religion if he deems it apporpriate) must be attacked and destroyed. It is understandable. Ultra-religious people do it as well.

saviorself...

You are doing nothing here but rationalizing. You have made claims you can not back up, and therefore you are claiming you opponents are just angry because you are right...even though you can't back up anything.

Try to be logical, rational for just a moment. I know it is a strain, but try.

Consider the ADL. If ANYONE in the whole wide world are experts on this subject, the ADL are. The whole reason they began was Hitler's atrocities.

Now, what does the ADL say on the subject? "Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler’s genocidal madness." That should carry some serious weight in the argument.

[Fossil Bob]

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
Ms./Mr. Dutch. Quite obviously your interpretation of theology is different than mine. I have never stated once that in humanities history religion has NOT been used as justification for various atrocities, I have states numerous times that the implemented POLICIES of the Nazis regime were not in keeping with a Christian doctrine. In your blind hatred for religion, you will apparently attribute ALL human evil to it. I am willing to play this game, sure. O.k. then, you have managed to explain the mass murder of millions of people in pursuit of a eugenic philosophy as somehow inspired by the bible (you have'nt really, but let's pretend it is so.) So, do you ALSO blame the nighmare of 6 to 12 million dead by the hand of the Khymer Rouge on Christianity? Would you place the blame of 10 million dead during the Chinese purges of Mao Tse TOng on Judaism, Islam, or Buddhism? Would you put the estimate 40 million killed during the Stalinist purges of Stalin on the same somehow? A bit off-topic perhaps, but being as you find it threatening somehow to your beliefs that the Nazis may have had anything OTHER than a religious agenda at the heart of their pursuit for a "perfect society" I am curious as to what other forms of thought may be offensive to apparently deeply entrenched conceptions in regards to the OTHER societies attempts to build the "perfect society" by slaughtering others.

How about just proclaiming that such horrific events... dating back to LONNNGGG before Genghis Khan, Alexander, etc... are the result of some people's personal greed and hatred?

...Rather than trying to blame mass murder on something that you just happen not to approve.

The problem is that creationists\ID folks decided to denounce a science that they couldn't understand (and couldn't contradict!), so they decided to attack it in a oblique way.

The odd thing is...the claim doesn't say evolution is wrong! It just says that it's "bad"!(As if the truth of something was based on whether or not ones LIKES it!)

An utterly bizarre concept!

[saviorself]

Darwins Stepchild wrote:

<quoted text>
saviorself...
You are doing nothing here but rationalizing. You have made claims you can not back up, and therefore you are claiming you opponents are just angry because you are right...even though you can't back up anything.
Try to be logical, rational for just a moment. I know it is a strain, but try.
Consider the ADL. If ANYONE in the whole wide world are experts on this subject, the ADL are. The whole reason they began was Hitler's atrocities.
Now, what does the ADL say on the subject? "Hitler did not need Darwin to devise his heinous plan to exterminate the Jewish people and Darwin and evolutionary theory cannot explain Hitler’s genocidal madness." That should carry some serious weight in the argument.

actually, the anti-defamation league was founded in 1913 in the United States of America, BEFORE the holocaust. You cannot even get your facts straight, but I still applaude your attempt to take me to task. Passion + Ignorance usually leads to such projections as you have attempted to make. Ii actually applaud your effort, but hope sincerely that you can see beyond what is, in all honesty, a rather juvenile attempt to explain an anger at organized religion. Please, get your facts straight though. The ADL was founded in the wake of Hitler's atrocities? Have you ever actually read a book, or do you just parrot everything you see and hear?

[saviorself]

Darwins Stepchild wrote:

<quoted text>
That's not the way it works, doofus.
A claim can not be made just because there is no evidence against it. Otherwise, I could claim to be the offspring of the first czar and claim the right to rule Russia.
I know you consider your claim of a god valid because there isn't any proof against it. But this is the real world, not Wayne's fantasy land.
You make a claim, it is YOUR responsibility to provide proof. NOT the responsibility of others to disprove it.

you certainly have the faith of your beliefs as well though. Neither fact nor common sense is apparently going to get in the way of what you believe, but if you find yourself in doubt, merely sling "doofus" or even better, accuse someone of not being able to examine something as deeply or logically as you can (never mind that your stated facts are completely errorneous.) Excellent barbs though... I appreciate good slander as much as the next guy.

[chipfle]

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
you certainly have the faith of your beliefs as well though. Neither fact nor common sense is apparently going to get in the way of what you believe, but if you find yourself in doubt, merely sling "doofus" or even better, accuse someone of not being able to examine something as deeply or logically as you can (never mind that your stated facts are completely errorneous.) Excellent barbs though... I appreciate good slander as much as the next guy.

I "believe" nothing except through repeated testing and independent confirmation. I accept probabilities based on evidence vs cost. As a working Physicist I can tell you that "common sense" is usually wrong even in mundane events, regarding events outside common experience, it is almost always wrong. Please present a single actual fact supporting creIDism: "Its really complicated and I don't understand it" is not a fact. Your arguments so far are a joke. If decay rates had changed by much less than required t support your fantasy, Earth would still be a cinder. If you want to think everythings jesuuus magik, fine, just stop using any technology I develop.

[MIDutch]

Wayne wrote:

<quoted text>
Do YOU have his personal papers to prove otherwise? Then shut up.

Madame/Mr. Wayne. I hate to have to point this out (again), but the "otherwise" is all of the quotes and videos and pictures that we all have been showing you for the last few MONTHS, you know the stuff you've been IGNORING all this time. ANYONE with an internet connection can find lots and lots and lots of the stuff that Hitler REALLY SAID. INCLUDING his personal papers. What, EXACTLY, do you have other than your fanatical inability to see the EVIDENCE.

As for shutting up, sorry, this is an open forum on which I have just as much right to voice my opinion as you do.

Of course, I don't find the need to insult and condemn to hell everyone who disagrees with me. In that respect, I would like to think that, other than you, most of the posters here would refrain from telling me to shut up.

[MIDutch]

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
Ms./Mr. Dutch. Quite obviously your interpretation of theology is different than mine. I have never stated once that in humanities history religion has NOT been used as justification for various atrocities, I have states numerous times that the implemented POLICIES of the Nazis regime were not in keeping with a Christian doctrine. In your blind hatred for religion, you will apparently attribute ALL human evil to it....

Madame/Mr. Saviorself, I'm sorry to have to point out that you are making a HUGE assumption here. You are assuming that I HAVE a blind hatred for religion. Actually, nothing could be further from the truth. I am Roman Catholic, which is, despite Madame/Mr. Wayne's proclamations, a Christian religion. I have a deep respect for religion.

What I I have a blind hatred for is ignorance and "I am holier than thou" arrogance. Unfortunately, "fundamentalist christians" display both in unfathomable abundance.

[Matt from Akron]

Wayne wrote:

<quoted text>
Do YOU have his personal papers to prove otherwise? Then shut up.

Still evading my Hitler quote post, I see. No surprise there.

Do YOU have his personal papers to prove he lusted after evolutionary theory and framed the Holocaust around it, like you say?

No?

Then shut up.

[Darwins Stepchild]

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
actually, the anti-defamation league was founded in 1913 in the United States of America, BEFORE the holocaust. You cannot even get your facts straight, but I still applaude your attempt to take me to task. Passion + Ignorance usually leads to such projections as you have attempted to make. Ii actually applaud your effort, but hope sincerely that you can see beyond what is, in all honesty, a rather juvenile attempt to explain an anger at organized religion. Please, get your facts straight though. The ADL was founded in the wake of Hitler's atrocities? Have you ever actually read a book, or do you just parrot everything you see and hear?

Alright. I admit I was incorrect on the when the ADL was founded. I am not an expert on the ADL, and will freely admit that, too.

However, you did not address the rest of my post. Yes, I didn't have the founding down correctly, however, the ADL is about as much an expert on the Holocaust as anyone. That, I do not think, you can deny.

And...you in no way...not even an attempt...to refute what they had to say on the subject. They have stated publicly that the premise of Stein and Expelled is wrong in relation to Hitler.

Deal with that fact and stop trying to side track the discussion.

[Real]

Matt from Akron wrote:

<quoted text>
Still evading my Hitler quote post, I see. No surprise there.
Do YOU have his personal papers to prove he lusted after evolutionary theory and framed the Holocaust around it, like you say?
No?
Then shut up.

Ditto. Wayne's fetish with Hitler must be a sign of Waynes true mask: a racist, thankfully its all in a subconscious level (for now).

[Darwins Stepchild]

saviorself wrote:

<quoted text>
you certainly have the faith of your beliefs as well though. Neither fact nor common sense is apparently going to get in the way of what you believe, but if you find yourself in doubt, merely sling "doofus" or even better, accuse someone of not being able to examine something as deeply or logically as you can (never mind that your stated facts are completely errorneous.) Excellent barbs though... I appreciate good slander as much as the next guy.

And what, exactly, does this have to do with what I said.

You made a claim.

Wayne then insisted that you didn't have to provide evidence FOR it, that the other person had to provide every shred of possibly non-existent evidence to prove you weren't right.

Sorry, dude, but that is not how claims and evidence work.

As for "doofus", well...there is some history there. Wayne is an obnoxious little fundamentalist that seems to think his god has given him the right to insult everyone. He has been calling any who disagreed with him "stupid" and "illiterate" since he first showed up here.

I tried to get him to agree to stop the insults, to which he personally insulted me. Ergo..."doofus".

You might also note that the term in this case was rather well deserved, for he is completely wrong on the subject.

[Matt from Akron]

Real wrote:

<quoted text>
Ditto. Wayne's fetish with Hitler must be a sign of Waynes true mask: a racist, thankfully its all in a subconscious level (for now).

Real, nice to see you again, I haven't seen you around hardly at all since the demise of that thread where "Chris C." ran rampant. I have learned a helluva lot since that thread died (actually, for whatever reason, it was deleted).

See ya around.