Evolution; Theory or Fact
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#42 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
As to the Gilgamesh. Gilgamesh was a decendent of Noah. Where does the bibe say the earth is flat. Back up you statements with evidance.
There is no one passage that says specifically "Yea, I sayeth unto you, the earth is flat," but there are dozens of passages that indicate that the Bible writers believed we lived on a flat disc (with some hills) sitting on pillars and covered over by an attached dome that had lights stuck unto it and holes cut into it through which the rain fell and though which God spied on us as we masturbated and otherwise "sinned", etc.

Here are many of those passages:

http://www.goatstar.org/the-bibles-flat-earth...
Joshua

Durham, NC

#43 Apr 25, 2012
That there is life today is not evidance for evolution.
Joshua

Durham, NC

#44 Apr 25, 2012
The Passover is a seven day event. He died the day before the last day of the passover but he died during the passover
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#45 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
Christianity at its core comes down to faith. So does evolution. It takes a LOT of faith to beileive that.
Takes NO FAITH AT ALL, because we have tons and tons of DNA, geological and fossil evidence.
Joshua wrote:
Did you know there is a 10 to the 120th power chance that evolution even got started. An evolutionist found that out. You, being a smart well informed person are probably aware about the law of probability. This law states that anything over 10 to the 20th power is impossible. Beileiving that takes faith.
More lies form the followers of Jesus. There is no possible way to make such a mathematical calculation because there are far too many factors unknown.

Anyway, the ORIGIN of life is not covered by the Theory of Evolution. It's covered in Abiogenesis, another branch of the life sciences.

HOWEVER life began, it subsequently EVOLVED according to the mechanics of the TOE.
Joshua

Durham, NC

#46 Apr 25, 2012
If there are so many unknowns then beilving that all those unknowns go the way of evolution takes a lot of faith.
Joshua

Durham, NC

#47 Apr 25, 2012
So beileiving in evolution does take a lot of faith.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#48 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
The Passover is a seven day event. He died the day before the last day of the passover but he died during the passover
The gospels contradict themselves. If you READ THROUGH the Mark and John passages, all the while asking yourself "What day is it NOW?" at every point, you will see that in Mark Jesus has a lamb slaughtered (done on the day BEFORE Passover begins), then eats the Passover Meal and is arrested and dies the same day (next morning, i.e. DURING Passover, whatever the length of the feast).

While if you follow JOHN, there is no mention of eating a Passover meal or slaughtering lambs and John EXPLICITLY SAYS "It was the Day of Preparation for the Passover; and it was about noon" (John 19:14).

Two DIFFERENT DAYS. Your Bible CONTRADICTS itself, Q.E.D.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#49 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
If there are so many unknowns then beilving that all those unknowns go the way of evolution takes a lot of faith.
Don't be stupid (I know, it's HARD, isn't it?).

While we don't know EXACTLY ENOUGH how the history of early life on earth came together to do any such mathematical calculation, we DO KNOW so far that life will begin to assemble itself under the right conditions such as most likely prevailed on the early earth. And it will do so according to the laws of chemistry, not through faith or some "Jesus said POOF!" nonsense.

"Scientists Close to Reconstructing First Living Cell
Researchers get genetic material to copy itself in a recreation of a simple protocell that could have existed eons ago"
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm...

"Scientists create tiny RNA molecule with big implications for life's origins"
http://www.physorg.com/news186071435.html
Joshua

Durham, NC

#50 Apr 25, 2012
I have read through Mark and John. And I have read about the Jewish cultrue. Not extensevily but enough to understand the Bible. The Bible was written by Jews except Luke. Bun answer my point. Does it take faith to beileve in evolutin?
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#51 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
I have read through Mark and John. And I have read about the Jewish cultrue. Not extensevily but enough to understand the Bible. The Bible was written by Jews except Luke. Bun answer my point. Does it take faith to beileve in evolutin?
I take that as a concession on your part that you either 1.) acknowledge that the two gospels contradict themselves or 2.) you can't be bothered to research the issue and defend your ridiculous claim that the Bible is without error.

And I have EXPLICITLY told you in several posts that we have EVIDENCE for evolution -- TONS and TONS of it, not to mention the DNA record.

So, in the presence of evidence, NO FAITH is required.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#52 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
That there is life today is not evidance for evolution.
No, but it's good evidence for abiogenesis (although not yet conclusive).

The evidence for evolution is how life has developed according to nested hierarchies over the many millenia, as backed up by both the fossil and the DNA record.

ALL of that evidence conforms to evolution by descent with modification (including gene mutation, genetic drift and genetic recombination during reproduction) PLUS natural selection -- i.e. the Theory of Evolution.
Joshua

Durham, NC

#53 Apr 25, 2012
I have researched what you said but you obviously don't understand what I am saying. If life her is evidance for evolution. Then life here is evidance that God created us and put us here. You say that it does not take faith to beilieve in evolution but you said that there were many unknowns. If there are so many unknowns how can you know for sure that evolution happend. If you cannot be sure that evolution happend then you have faith in evolution and evolution is not a fact.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#54 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
I have researched what you said but you obviously don't understand what I am saying. If life her is evidance for evolution. Then life here is evidance that God created us and put us here. You say that it does not take faith to beilieve in evolution but you said that there were many unknowns. If there are so many unknowns how can you know for sure that evolution happend. If you cannot be sure that evolution happend then you have faith in evolution and evolution is not a fact.
I'm trying to be patient here (and more polite).

Life is here now. Agreed?:)

We have NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE for the existence of God and the creation of the world in one fell swoop by said God. Your Bible doesn't count, scientifically. So the fact that life is HERE does NOT "give us evidence that God created it."

Now we DO have preliminary SCIENTIFIC evidence that life proteins are contained in meteorites and comets (and thus may have showered down on the early earth in very large numbers in the constant bombardments of that period, billions of years ago).

And we DO have experiments that show chemicals assembling themselves into at least the PRECURSORS of full-blown "life" when conditions are right (see links I gave you above, and also the Miller-Urey experiments).

And once again, there is a DIFFERENCE between the ORIGIN of life (Abiogenesis) and the DIVERSIFICATION of species (Theory of Evolution). You are conflating the two unnecessarily.

HOWEVER life began (abiogenesis, alien seeding, Jesus saying "PPOOF!"), we KNOW it subsequently evolved and continues to evolve according to the mechanisms of the TOE.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#55 Apr 25, 2012
As far as "unknowns" and any probability calculation on whether life evolved, I assume you mean whether life AROSE originally -- again, don't confuse abiogenesis with subsequent evolution and diversification of species.

Science is pretty sure of the former and DEAD SURE, i.e. CERTAIN of the latter.

And what I meant is that you cannot make any meaningful probability calculation unless you know such things as :

-- the number of molecules of proto-proteins that were present in any given moment on the early earth

-- the number of trials going on in the early oceans, etc.

Without all of that EXACT information, any math calculation is meaningless BS.

Most of these phony calculation we see on "Christian" websites assume the odds of ONE molecule of life assembling from proteins, and they are indeed high.

But what if you have UNCOUNTED TRILLIONS AND TRILLIONS of such chemical reactions happening at once?

Cuts the odds way down, doesn't it?
Joshua

Durham, NC

#56 Apr 25, 2012
How many times do I have to tell you life being here is not evidance of anything. It is a fact. Evolution is a theory that tries to explain that fact. Creationism is another postulate for why we are here. Evolution is not a fact it is a theory. Unlike gravity, the earth, us being here, and so many other facts of reality, evolution (macro) is just a theory. Evolution is E Plurabus Unum of the many postulutes of how we are here today. A fact is something we can all agree on. Around 10 percent of America beileves in Evolution it does not appear that we all agree upon the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution is not a fact. It is just another theory hence the name. Unless some new evidance has that clearly show that macro evolution is a fact, macro evolution is a theory.

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#57 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
How many times do I have to tell you life being here is not evidance of anything. It is a fact. Evolution is a theory that tries to explain that fact. Creationism is another postulate for why we are here. Evolution is not a fact it is a theory. Unlike gravity, the earth, us being here, and so many other facts of reality, evolution (macro) is just a theory. Evolution is E Plurabus Unum of the many postulutes of how we are here today. A fact is something we can all agree on. Around 10 percent of America beileves in Evolution it does not appear that we all agree upon the theory of evolution. The theory of evolution is not a fact. It is just another theory hence the name. Unless some new evidance has that clearly show that macro evolution is a fact, macro evolution is a theory.
The Theory of Evolution is an explanation for the diversity of life forms that we see on Earth. That explanation is based on mechanisms which are known to exist. No evidence has been found which is inconsistent with the model described by the Theory.

Creationism is based on assertions of undetectable, undefined forces (magic). Hardly an explanation of anything.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#58 Apr 25, 2012
>>>Joshua
How many times do I have to tell you life being here is not evidance of anything.

>>>GIllette
It's spelled "evidence." And I just gave you a detailed explanation of why we say this. Got any rebuttal? Or did you not even read it?

>>>Joshua
It is a fact. Evolution is a theory that tries to explain that fact.

>>>Gillette
You are confused as to what facts and theories are. A theory does not grow up to be a fact. It always remains a theory and facts always remain facts.

Theories do not become facts. Theories EXPLAIN facts. Your statement makes it sound like once a theory has enough evidence, it becomes a fact. Not the way it works. Evolution consists of facts, theories, and hypotheses.

Here's a fact: A fossilized bone fragment, K/Ar dated to this age with a margin of error of this much was found at this GPS location on this date. That's a fact. It's not a theory. It's simply a fact.

A theory explains the relationship between groups of facts. A hypothesis proposes a relationship between groups of facts, and is tested.

In scientific terms, a "theory" is not a conjecture or a vague guess. It is a complete, detailed unifying explanation of a large set of facts. "Theory" is as high as it gets in science.

Saying "evolution is just a theory" is like saying "Bill Gates is just a multi-billionaire."

>>>Joshua
Creationism is another postulate for why we are here.

>>>Gillette
A "postulate"? LOL! Creationism is a religious belief dishonestly cloaked in sciencey-sounding language and unsupported by the facts.

It may be a "postulate for why we are here," but it belongs in your Jesus Freak churches, NOT in public school science classes (cf. multiple court rulings from the Supreme Court on down).

>>>Joshua
Unlike gravity, the earth, us being here, and so many other facts of reality, evolution (macro) is just a theory.

>>>Gillettte
Complete nonsense. As well established as the scientific theories of Special Relativity, Gravity, Germ Theory, etc. are, they are far overshadowed by the Theory of Evolution which is the best-accepted and best-supported of ALL the scientific theories or explanations for a large number of facts. The TOE is the backbone of the modern life sciences. "Nothing in biology makes any sense except in the light of the TOE," says a famous biologist.

>>>Joshua
Around 10 percent of America beleives in Evolution it does not appear that we all agree upon the theory of evolution.

>>>Gillette
Science is not decided by popular vote, is it? In the world of the life sciences, there is NO significant controversy over the veracity of the TOE, even as our understanding of some of the specific mechanisms is debated and adjusted as the years go by.

>>>Joshua
Unless some new evidance has that clearly show that macro evolution is a fact, macro evolution is a theory.

>>>Gillette
Only uneducated Jesus Freaks who think they need to oppose evolution because of their quaint and ignorant Bible beliefs think there is a difference between so-called "microevolution" and "macroevolution."

Real scientists, of course, make no such distinction.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#59 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
That there is life today is not evidance for evolution.
Nor is that our claim. It's the components that life carries that is evidence of evolution - comparative anatomy, DNA, ERV',s nested hierarchies - only explainable by evolution. Nothing else so far.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#60 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
I have read through Mark and John. And I have read about the Jewish cultrue. Not extensevily but enough to understand the Bible. The Bible was written by Jews except Luke. Bun answer my point. Does it take faith to beileve in evolutin?
No, it only takes faith to believe it's wrong.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#61 Apr 25, 2012
Joshua wrote:
I have researched what you said but you obviously don't understand what I am saying. If life her is evidance for evolution. Then life here is evidance that God created us and put us here. You say that it does not take faith to beilieve in evolution but you said that there were many unknowns. If there are so many unknowns how can you know for sure that evolution happend. If you cannot be sure that evolution happend then you have faith in evolution and evolution is not a fact.
Except it's NOT the fact that life is here that is evidence for evolution. It's the specific characteristics that life has that's evidence of evolution.

None of it is evidence for God, since God could have done things completely differently, and you would still say Goddidit. It's because evolution makes successful predictions based on observable evidence while creationism does not.

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