“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#522 Nov 19, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
I've often wondered if creationists are all secretly atheists. After all, they all lie their azzes off and have a bad habit of ignoring God's Commands.
To be honest I don’t actually know an atheist who deliberately lies. I believe that many think the same way as me, I see no need to lie, lies upset me and I can’t imagine deliberately upsetting myself.

I do know several “theists” and being on topix I know ‘of’ many more who willingly lie for their god. They do not see the hypocrisy in their lies because they imagine god is on their side so they must be right.

Take away the babble, qur’an, tanakh etc and the great majority of reasons to lie goes with it.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#523 Nov 19, 2012
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
And liar for Jesus reality-denying YEC who abuses his thermo creds to promote GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC. He's also on tape saying Bible first, science second. Dork can be dismissed.
Hey The Dude, where've you been?
Some evo-god worship seminar? Learning how to tilt at windmills maybe?
So, the next time I'm in the UK would you like me to facilitate a meeting with the esteemed Prof?
I could swing by Birkenhead, pick you up, off to Leeds, and in less than two hours, you can tell him to his face..."Cretard" followed by how he's a liar and a dork. Then, present him with your evidence for evolution, "Mutations done it," followed by, "Dead bird".
He's quite an affable bloke, and I promise I won’t let him hurt you physically. AND, special treat. Tea and scones at Leeds castle afterwards, on me...
Yes, don’t say I don’t look after you.
Subduction Zone, THAT'S a YouTube clip I'd gladly watch.
No problem - after all he is responsible for a number of lying for Jesus websites and is ON CAMERA as being a reality-denying Goddidit with magic YEC. And that as he is not qualified he knows JACK about biology, and that he HASN'T been able to falsify evolution in the ONE place where it counts - the scientific community. Then all I need do is present the same evidence I gave you back on page 1 to demonstrate that his claims re thermodynamics are NOT adequate enough to prevent "macro"-evolution BECAUSE HE ALSO ADMITS that they are not adequate to prevent "micro"-evolution. He therefore requres a COMPLETE AND FUNDAMENTAL restructuring of ALL scientific rules of the universe to happen at some point between now and 6,000 years ago - something which he has NO evidence for. Ultimately this will lead him back to nothing more than his own incredulity towards biology and his insistence that evolution did not happen because in the end he is of the personal opinion that the universe was created in a much different manner by an invisible magic Jewish wizard. At which point we can even pretend evolution is wrong and I can still beat him by saying I can still fix everything with magic and my magic is stronger than his magic so there.

He can't demonstrate his case. And he's an actual scientist. What chance did you think YOU had, Russ?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#524 Nov 19, 2012
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing from Readers Digest?
Ask Norman Geisler.

HAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#526 Nov 19, 2012
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
So a quote from Maxwell offended your refined scientific sensibilites?
Well, let's see...
Well let's see, you quoted a few guys opinions NOT from any peer-reviewed scientific papers. We could quite easily do the same going the other way by evolutionary biologists, but then what would be the point? As none of it would actually be dealing with the evidence.

THAT'S what's important. THAT'S what has been provided. And THAT'S what you can't address or falsify.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#527 Nov 19, 2012
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
asking for links to referenced work, tsp, tsp.
I am already spoon-feeding you, but that's not good enough?
You want to be drip fed.....
Well, it's not going to happen Bud
So you're not going back up your bullshit. Figures. And expected. OK, into the liar bin you go.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#528 Nov 19, 2012
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
To be honest I don’t actually know an atheist who deliberately lies.
I do. His name's Skippy the 'Skeptic'. He's a fundamentalist atheist.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#529 Nov 19, 2012
So Russ! After all these weeks and 26 pages, still no falsification of evolution, still no "scientific theory" of creationism and still no attempt to address any of our posts. Why's that then?

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#530 Nov 19, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
I do. His name's Skippy the 'Skeptic'. He's a fundamentalist atheist.
Don’t think I know him.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#531 Nov 19, 2012
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Don’t think I know him.
Fortune smiles upon you.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#532 Nov 19, 2012
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Kong, Kong
Don't embarrass yourself, mate
C'mon man, don't beg for drip feeds.
I like Man Vs Wild
This forum is like Man vs marshmallows
Russel, Russell, Russell....

I notice that you failed to back up your former post.

All I asked you to do was
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
...please go to the actual article you referenced:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/100080685/Levinton-...
...and tell us all where Levinton says that there were no animals(soft-bodied or otherwise) ancestral to the Cambrian organisms.
C'mon, Russell....you can do it!

...no. On second thought, maybe you cannot.
Ron May

Kalispell, MT

#533 Nov 19, 2012
Russell wrote:
It is obvious evolution is a faith, not science. Anyone disagree??
Maybe not faith, evolution science is certainly a world-view more than science.

What Use is the Science of Evolution?

Every day we rely on technologies made possible through the application of scientific knowledge and processes. The computers and cell phones which we use, the cars and airplanes in which we travel, the medicines that we take, and many of the foods that we eat were developed in part through insights obtained from scientific research. Science has boosted living standards, has enabled humans to travel into Earth orbit and to the Moon... But most of these scientific advances haven't had the slightest thing to do with evolution... computers, cell phones, airplanes, and the Moon landings certainly don't!

So... What use is evolution science? Exactly how does society benefit from this knowledge? For the most part, evolution science seems to be solely directed in a negative direction, toward disproving and discrediting God. To do this evolution science needs to piggy-back on the other, beneficial sciences. Just look around... Who, other than the government, provides financial support for evolution science? Is there any kind of product on the market produced by using evolution science? How about teaching? Yes, schools hire evolution science teachers, but they only beget more evolution science teachers.

What benefit is there in teaching our children that they descended from apes? Do our children feel better about that malarkey than understanding they were created by God, who loves them and wants them to be with Him forever? Of course not, the only benefit for the evolutionists is to drive a wedge and separate society from God. That, in turn, leaves the evolutionists with the moral authority to teach and promote anything they want. Abortion, same-sex-marriage, birth out of wed-lock, death panels, and a host of other behaviors that contribute to the moral decay of society.

Even the science of evolution itself is corrupted. They make good, honest observations and measurements, and then jump to erroneous conclusions. For example, the "primordial soup," the goo that all life is supposed to have evolved from? How many times have scientists observed this process, or duplicated it in the lab? Zero, and not from a lack of trying. Even so, they will insist that life "must have" spontaneously emerged. Must have? Why must have? Because that is what they imagine, that is what they want to believe, and that is what they want everyone else to believe.

Think about it, you will be hard pressed to find anything in your everyday life that depends on, or even uses evolution science. So who is supporting this science that has little or no benefit? Just follow the money and you will find that government and public schools are the ones paying for and dogmatically pushing evolution. How many of those evolutionary scientists would be awarded study grants or positions of honor in academia if their studies concluded that there is a creator?

How are our children, our future citizens, responding as the ACLU and evolutionary scientists push God out of our schools and out of our society? Are our children, and society, more polite, better behaved, more respectful, or even better educated when they are told their ancestors were monkeys? In the end, evolution as presented today is baloney, it is a pure and simple power-grab with the government using the paid useful idiots, evolution scientists, to help.

Evolution...
http://beyondthebible.net/bbarticle.asp... \evolution.txt

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#534 Nov 19, 2012
Ron May wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe not faith, evolution science is certainly a world-view more than science.
What Use is the Science of Evolution?
Every day we rely on technologies made possible through the application of scientific knowledge and processes. The computers and cell phones which we use, the cars and airplanes in which we travel, the medicines that we take, and many of the foods that we eat were developed in part through insights obtained from scientific research. Science has boosted living standards, has enabled humans to travel into Earth orbit and to the Moon... But most of these scientific advances haven't had the slightest thing to do with evolution... computers, cell phones, airplanes, and the Moon landings certainly don't!
So... What use is evolution science? Exactly how does society benefit from this knowledge? For the most part, evolution science seems to be solely directed in a negative direction, toward disproving and discrediting God. To do this evolution science needs to piggy-back on the other, beneficial sciences. Just look around... Who, other than the government, provides financial support for evolution science? Is there any kind of product on the market produced by using evolution science? How about teaching? Yes, schools hire evolution science teachers, but they only beget more evolution science teachers.
What benefit is there in teaching our children that they descended from apes? Do our children feel better about that malarkey than understanding they were created by God, who loves them and wants them to be with Him forever? Of course not, the only benefit for the evolutionists is to drive a wedge and separate society from God. That, in turn, leaves the evolutionists with the moral authority to teach and promote anything they want. Abortion, same-sex-marriage, birth out of wed-lock, death panels, and a host of other behaviors that contribute to the moral decay of society.
Even the science of evolution itself is corrupted. They make good, honest observations and measurements, and then jump to erroneous conclusions. For example, the "primordial soup," the goo that all life is supposed to have evolved from? How many times have scientists observed this process, or duplicated it in the lab? Zero, and not from a lack of trying. Even so, they will insist that life "must have" spontaneously emerged. Must have? Why must have? Because that is what they imagine, that is what they want to believe, and that is what they want everyone else to believe.
Think about it, you will be hard pressed to find anything in your everyday life that depends on, or even uses evolution science. So who is supporting this science that has little or no benefit? Just follow the money and you will find that government and public schools are the ones paying for and dogmatically pushing evolution. How many of those evolutionary scientists would be awarded study grants or positions of honor in academia if their studies concluded that there is a creator?
How are our children, our future citizens, responding as the ACLU and evolutionary scientists push God out of our schools and out of our society? Are our children, and society, more polite, better behaved, more respectful, or even better educated when they are told their ancestors were monkeys? In the end, evolution as presented today is baloney, it is a pure and simple power-grab with the government using the paid useful idiots, evolution scientists, to help.
Evolution...
http://beyondthebible.net/bbarticle.asp... \evolution.txt
Wow. Would you like to make a SINGLE argument and discuss it?

Or would you prefer instead to remain on your pulpit and preach (as in above)?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#535 Nov 19, 2012
Ron, do you drive anywhere? A knowledge of geology is needed to find oil. And part of the geology needed to find oil is paleontology. You need to know what the age of the rocks that you are drilling into since only rocks of specific ages have been shown to produce oil. To understand paleontology it is very helpful to understand evolution. I suppose you could remember the fossils, but they do not make any sense without the theory of evolution.

Now, you may understand how to tow cars and how to help people who have locked themselves out of their vehicles. That's fine with me. I have even used your services in the past. Leave the science to the scientists and we will leave the towing to the towers:
http://ronmaytowing.reachlocal.com/...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#536 Nov 19, 2012
Ron May wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe not faith, evolution science is certainly a world-view more than science.
What Use is the Science of Evolution?
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA215.h...

Creationist Claim CA215:

The theory of evolution is useless, without practical application.

Response:

1. Evolutionary theory is the framework tying together all of biology. It explains similarities and differences between organisms, fossils, biogeography, drug resistance, extreme features such as the peacock's tail, relative virulence of parasites, and much more besides. Without the theory of evolution, it would still be possible to know much about biology, but not to understand it.

This explanatory framework is useful in a practical sense. First, a unified theory is easier to learn, because the facts connect together rather than being so many isolated bits of trivia. Second, having a theory makes it possible to see gaps in the theory, suggesting productive areas for new research.

2. Evolutionary theory has been put to practical use in several areas (Futuyma 1995; Bull and Wichman 2001). For example:
• Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
• Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).
• Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).
• Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
• Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).
• Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction (Sutherland 2002).

Evolutionary theory is being applied to and has potential applications in may other areas, from evaluating the threats of genetically modified crops to human psychology. Additional applications are sure to come.

3. Phylogenetic analysis, which uses the evolutionary principle of common descent, has proven its usefulness:
• Tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery (Branca 2002; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).
• Phylogenetic analysis is a standard part of epidemiology, since it allows the identification of disease reservoirs and sometimes the tracking of step-by-step transmission of disease. For example, phylogenetic analysis confirmed that a Florida dentist was infecting his patients with HIV, that HIV-1 and HIV-2 were transmitted to humans from chimpanzees and mangabey monkeys in the twentieth century, and, when polio was being eradicated from the Americas, that new cases were not coming from hidden reservoirs (Bull and Wichman 2001). It was used in 2002 to help convict a man of intentionally infecting someone with HIV (Vogel 1998). The same principle can be used to trace the source of bioweapons (Cummings and Relman 2002).
• Phylogenetic analysis to track the diversity of a pathogen can be used to select an appropriate vaccine for a particular region (Gaschen et al. 2002).
• Ribotyping is a technique for identifying an organism or at least finding its closest known relative by mapping its ribosomal RNA onto the tree of life. It can be used even when the organisms cannot be cultured or recognized by other methods. Ribotyping and other genotyping methods have been used to find previously unknown infectious agents of human disease (Bull and Wichman 2001; Relman 1999).

continued...
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#537 Nov 19, 2012
continued...

• Phylogenetic analysis helps in determining protein folds, since proteins diverging from a common ancestor tend to conserve their folds (Benner 2001).

4. Directed evolution allows the "breeding" of molecules or molecular pathways to create or enhance products, including:
• enzymes (Arnold 2001)
• pigments (Arnold 2001)
• antibiotics
• flavors
• biopolymers
• bacterial strains to decompose hazardous materials.
Directed evolution can also be used to study the folding and function of natural enzymes (Taylor et al. 2001).

5. The evolutionary principles of natural selection, variation, and recombination are the basis for genetic algorithms, an engineering technique that has many practical applications, including aerospace engineering, architecture, astrophysics, data mining, drug discovery and design, electrical engineering, finance, geophysics, materials engineering, military strategy, pattern recognition, robotics, scheduling, and systems engineering (Marczyk 2004).

6. Tools developed for evolutionary science have been put to other uses. For example:
• Many statistical techniques, including analysis of variance and linear regression, were developed by evolutionary biologists, especially Ronald Fisher and Karl Pearson. These statistical techniques have much wider application today.
• The same techniques of phylogenetic analysis developed for biology can also trace the history of multiple copies of a manuscript (Barbrook et al. 1998; Howe et al. 2001) and the history of languages (Dunn et al. 2005).

7. Good science need not have any application beyond satisfying curiosity. Much of astronomy, geology, paleontology, natural history, and other sciences have no practical application. For many people, knowledge is a worthy end in itself.

8. Science with little or no application now may find application in the future, especially as the field matures and our knowledge of it becomes more complete. Practical applications are often built upon ideas that did not look applicable originally. Furthermore, advances in one area of science can help illuminate other areas. Evolution provides a framework for biology, a framework which can support other useful biological advances.

9. Anti-evolutionary ideas have been around for millennia and have not yet contributed anything with any practical application.
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#538 Nov 19, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
No you won't. You're nobody important.(shrug)
Thats not what my Mum says
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#539 Nov 19, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Well if it's that easy to critique then I guess you'll be getting around to that any day now. It's only been 25 pages and about 6 weeks. Or does it just so happen that you have in fact addressed each and every one of our posts with great scientific detail, and not only have the Mods made sure that not only have those particular posts of yours, but also coincidentally not one of us has managed to even see them before the Mods had chance to delete 'em?
Most impressive posts they must have been, especially when one considers your "scientific alternative" is just GODDIDIT WITH MAGIC!
What is your evidence?
If it's so good, how about re-posting?
I swear I'll look at it.

Most of my posts are getting through now.
So I feel safe to say...

MARSHMALLOWS!!
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#540 Nov 19, 2012
Ron May wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe not faith, evolution science is certainly a world-view more than science.
What Use is the Science of Evolution?
Every day we rely on technologies made possible through the application of scientific knowledge and processes. The computers and cell phones which we use, the cars and airplanes in which we travel, the medicines that we take, and many of the foods that we eat were developed in part through insights obtained from scientific research. Science has boosted living standards, has enabled humans to travel into Earth orbit and to the Moon... But most of these scientific advances haven't had the slightest thing to do with evolution... computers, cell phones, airplanes, and the Moon landings certainly don't!
So... What use is evolution science? Exactly how does society benefit from this knowledge? For the most part, evolution science seems to be solely directed in a negative direction, toward disproving and discrediting God. To do this evolution science needs to piggy-back on the other, beneficial sciences. Just look around... Who, other than the government, provides financial support for evolution science? Is there any kind of product on the market produced by using evolution science? How about teaching? Yes, schools hire evolution science teachers, but they only beget more evolution science teachers.
What benefit is there in teaching our children that they descended from apes? Do our children feel better about that malarkey than understanding they were created by God, who loves them and wants them to be with Him forever? Of course not, the only benefit for the evolutionists is to drive a wedge and separate society from God. That, in turn, leaves the evolutionists with the moral authority to teach and promote anything they want. Abortion, same-sex-marriage, birth out of wed-lock, death panels, and a host of other behaviors that contribute to the moral decay of society.
Even the science of evolution itself is corrupted. They make good, honest observations and measurements, and then jump to erroneous conclusions. For example, the "primordial soup," the goo that all life is supposed to have evolved from? How many times have scientists observed this process, or duplicated it in the lab? Zero, and not from a lack of trying. Even so, they will insist that life "must have" spontaneously emerged. Must have? Why must have? Because that is what they imagine, that is what they want to believe, and that is what they want everyone else to believe.
Think about it, you will be hard pressed to find anything in your everyday life that depends on, or even uses evolution science. So who is supporting this science that has little or no benefit? Just follow the money and you will find that government and public schools are the ones paying for and dogmatically pushing evolution. How many of those evolutionary scientists would be awarded study grants or positions of honor in academia if their studies concluded that there is a creator?
How are our children, our future citizens, responding as the ACLU and evolutionary scientists push God out of our schools and out of our society? Are our children, and society, more polite, better behaved, more respectful, or even better educated when they are told their ancestors were monkeys? In the end, evolution as presented today is baloney, it is a pure and simple power-grab with the government using the paid useful idiots, evolution scientists, to help.
Evolution...
http://beyondthebible.net/bbarticle.asp... \evolution.txt
Ron, how nice to hear from you.
What lovely words of truth. At last!
I dont feel so parched anymore on this forum.

Please be aware that when dealing with marshmallows, don't squeeze too hard. Otherwise, they fall off their evolutionary perches too quickly, and then you know what?
No fun.

Thats just a little joke.
I hope you stay?
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#541 Nov 19, 2012
Truncated
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA215.h...
Creationist Claim CA215:
The theory of evolution is useless, without practical application.
Response:
1. Evolutionary theory is the framework tying together all of biology. It explains similarities and differences between organisms, fossils, biogeography, drug resistance, extreme features such as the peacock's tail, relative virulence of parasites, and much more besides. Without the theory of evolution, it would still be possible to know much about biology, but not to understand it.
This explanatory framework is useful in a practical sense. First, a unified theory is easier to learn, because the facts connect together rather than being so many isolated bits of trivia. Second, having a theory makes it possible to see gaps in the theory, suggesting productive areas for new research.
2. Evolutionary theory has been put to practical use in several areas (Futuyma 1995; Bull and Wichman 2001). For example:
• Bioinformatics, a multi-billion-dollar industry, consists largely of the comparison of genetic sequences. Descent with modification is one of its most basic assumptions.
• Diseases and pests evolve resistance to the drugs and pesticides we use against them. Evolutionary theory is used in the field of resistance management in both medicine and agriculture (Bull and Wichman 2001).
• Evolutionary theory is used to manage fisheries for greater yields (Conover and Munch 2002).
• Artificial selection has been used since prehistory, but it has become much more efficient with the addition of quantitative trait locus mapping.
• Knowledge of the evolution of parasite virulence in human populations can help guide public health policy (Galvani 2003).
• Sex allocation theory, based on evolution theory, was used to predict conditions under which the highly endangered kakapo bird would produce more female offspring, which retrieved it from the brink of extinction (Sutherland 2002).
Evolutionary theory is being applied to and has potential applications in may other areas, from evaluating the threats of genetically modified crops to human psychology. Additional applications are sure to come.
3. Phylogenetic analysis, which uses the evolutionary principle of common descent, has proven its usefulness:
• Tracing genes of known function and comparing how they are related to unknown genes helps one to predict unknown gene function, which is foundational for drug discovery (Branca 2002; Eisen and Wu 2002; Searls 2003).
• Phylogenetic analysis to track the diversity of a pathogen can be used to select an appropriate vaccine for a particular region (Gaschen et al. 2002).
• Ribotyping is a technique for identifying an organism or at least finding its closest known relative by mapping its ribosomal RNA onto the tree of life. It can be used even when the organisms cannot be cultured or recognized by other methods. Ribotyping and other genotyping methods have been used to find previously unknown infectious agents of human disease (Bull and Wichman 2001; Relman 1999).
continued...
It is precisely this type of evo-god rubbish that forces me onto a forum like this. Entirely taking scientific processes, developed entirely with no reference to evolution being paraded as evidence that evolution really really helps us.
No it does not.
I will illustrate this. And address each of your points above and below.
But I need time to do so.

You see, I have a rich and full life.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#543 Nov 19, 2012
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. Would you like to make a SINGLE argument and discuss it?
Or would you prefer instead to remain on your pulpit and preach (as in above)?
Hey, evolution has nothing to do with cell phones. What more do you need?

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