Math Professor destroys Atheist
HillStart

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#44 Jan 22, 2014
[continued]
I also thought it might be interesting to actually think your thought experiment through. It's really very strange.
Firstly, you suggest that each student across the country should receive one of these textbooks. That's roughly 4,000,000 students. Each book contains errors at the same rate as we observe in humans. If we assume 1,000,000 characters per book, at an error rate of 3.0x10^-8 mutations/nucleotide/generatio n (this is the error rate given in the paper you referenced), and that the errors occur according to a Poisson process, we would expect over 97% of books to be perfect copies. Less than 3% would have a single incorrect letter. It is highly unlikely (<0.04%) that there would be any more than one error per book.
Then you decide to keep only books belonging to the students with the best 100 scores. That's the same as eliminating 99.9975% of the population - it would reduce the human population from it's current size of over 7 billion, down to about 180,000, smaller than the population of Knoxville, Tennessee. This just doesn't make any sense!
My only conclusion is that this thought experiment is not, in any way, analagous to evolution. I don't find any value in it whatsoever.

If you choose to present this document to your students, you should hope that none of them care enough to critically examine it. If one of them does, they will embarrass you.
HillStart

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#45 Jan 22, 2014
Hmm, Topix has made one of my posts vanish...(Or I've done something stupid).

I'll try reposting. Please ignore my previous message.
HillStart

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#46 Jan 22, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> No. You can't cope with me trumping your unattained high standard. I taught physics for three years and stepped up from my professorship to teaching high level math at a Christian high school. The state of Texas requires mathematical modeling in its Algebra II guidelines so I'm going to introduce my students to these mathematical challenges:
http://everythingimportant.org/relativity/spe...
http://everythingimportant.org/genome.pdf
Let's see if you can pass my high school Algebra II class.
I've taken a look at your genome document. It's interesting, but you're missing some very important pieces of information. I'll post this in two parts.

You fail to mention that the language of DNA has a great deal of redundancy built into it. It is read in triplets, called codons, and transcribed/translated (via RNA) into chains of amino acids that make up proteins. There are 64 possible codons, but only 20 amino acids. This gives some protection against mutation. In fact, just over 23% of mutations in a coding region will result in exactly the same protein being produced. These mutations have no effect at all.

You refer to the fact that there are regions within DNA, computer code and books where changes probably don't make any difference. That's true. In humans, 98% of the DNA is non-coding. In fact, if we take this, and the redundancy of DNA into account, 200 mutations in a generation corresponds to about 3 slightly different proteins. Even if all of these happened in a single typical protein containing 300 amino acids, that would represent a 1% change in a single protein. We have 250,000 - 1,000,000 proteins in each cell.

Perhaps I should also mention that there are large regions of every protein where the amino acid sequence actually doesn't matter very much. If a mutation affects one of these regions, it is unlikely there will be any phenotypic change.

So, we accumulate mutations, but we do it slowly enough that natural selection has time to operate on them. Very bad mutations are removed from the population quickly. The rest float around in the population. It is often said that "good" mutations will spread through a population. Actually, it's probably better to think of it the other way around: Those mutations that spread through the population can be characterised as "successful".

If you're wondering whether this mutation rate is too low now... well, mutation is just one way of introducing variability into our genomes. Crossover during meiosis, inversion of DNA sequences, nasty viruses, etc. help with this.
[to be continued]
HillStart

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#47 Jan 22, 2014
[continued]
I'd also like to point out that the thought experiment you reference isn't valid, and the reason is right there in the text: "there will be no meaningful correlation between the subtle differences in the textbooks and a student's grade". If this is true, then it is a fatally flawed analogy. For evolution to work, there must be a correlation between what is inherited (DNA) and the likelihood of the individual to produce offspring, as we observe when we examine living things. For this reason, this thought experiment has nothing to say about evolution.

I also thought it might be interesting to actually think your thought experiment through. It's really very strange.
Firstly, you suggest that each student across the country should receive one of these textbooks. That's roughly 4,000,000 students. Each book contains errors at the same rate as we observe in humans. If we assume 1,000,000 characters per book, at an error rate of 3.0x10^-8 mutations/nucleotide/generatio n (this is the error rate given in the paper you referenced), and that the errors occur according to a Poisson process, we would expect over 97% of books to be perfect copies. Less than 3% would have a single incorrect letter. It is highly unlikely (<0.04%) that there would be any more than one error per book.
Then you decide to keep only books belonging to the students with the best 100 scores. That's the same as eliminating 99.9975% of the population - it would reduce the human population from it's current size of over 7 billion, down to about 180,000, smaller than the population of Knoxville, Tennessee. This just doesn't make any sense!
My only conclusion is that this thought experiment is not, in any way, analagous to evolution. I don't find any value in it whatsoever.

If you choose to present this document to your students, you should hope that none of them care enough to critically examine it. If one of them does, they will embarrass you.

Since: Jan 14

Stoke-on-trent, UK

#48 Jan 22, 2014
OK, I don't know what Topix is doing but it's behaving strangely. I'm sorry if my last few posts look odd. I think both parts of my message have appeared now, so I'll stop messing with it.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#49 Jan 22, 2014
HillStart wrote:
OK, I don't know what Topix is doing but it's behaving strangely. I'm sorry if my last few posts look odd. I think both parts of my message have appeared now, so I'll stop messing with it.
Topix says it gives us a 4,000 character posting limit but runs into trouble the closer it gets to 3,500.

Sometimes it takes some minutes to show up, and on occasion they don't show up at all. It's often a good idea to save long posts to be safe and/or split them up into two shorter ones.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#51 Jan 22, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
If a dunce supports a theory, does that have any bearing on the merits of that theory?
Rhetorical question.
If a dunce can be a professor of parasitology and cell biology, serve as dean of a graduate school, and publish hundreds of scientific papers, then I suggest that science has more serious problems.
http://crev.info/...
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#52 Jan 22, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
I do not refute your intelligence and actually find it refreshing in the sea of dullard creatards aligned with you. A pity that your ego and fear has subjugated your obvious intelligence to false and futile alleyways.
I will then strive for greater humility and perfect fearlessness.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#53 Jan 22, 2014
HillStart wrote:
OK, I don't know what Topix is doing but it's behaving strangely. I'm sorry if my last few posts look odd. I think both parts of my message have appeared now, so I'll stop messing with it.
It helps posting in smaller parts. And copy before posting. I discovered that the time taken to compose an Original does not work in favour of it appearing. If it's busy it can take longer or a post can appear and disappear and reappear later.
Nevertheless it can sometimes take upto 8 tries Often the problem is with topix.

You have an interesting and clear presentation.

It's shub's toy of frustration but the genome paper would be the only one presenting the rational for the apocalypse, so i guess the rest is used to his iterated impervious attempt to press it in any nook and cranny.

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#54 Jan 22, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> No. You can't cope with me trumping your unattained high standard. I taught physics for three years and stepped up from my professorship to teaching high level math at a Christian high school. The state of Texas requires mathematical modeling in its Algebra II guidelines so I'm going to introduce my students to these mathematical challenges:
http://everythingimportant.org/relativity/spe...
http://everythingimportant.org/genome.pdf
Let's see if you can pass my high school Algebra II class.
Professorship? Meaning you taught at a University? Yes, a guy taught me physics in high school. He is a pretty smart guy, but I don't take advice on biology from him.

You are skirting around the issue trying to imply you have been a professor in some university science or physics department. That you don't come straight out with it, is because the reality is that you are a high school teacher. There is nothing wrong with that. I don't know why you are so ashamed of one of the most important jobs in education.

We don't think more or less of you because of your education or job. We think so little of you because of your ego and because you don't have a clue about biology.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#55 Jan 22, 2014
MAAT wrote:
It's shub's toy of frustration but the genome paper would be the only one presenting the rational for the apocalypse,
That is nonsense. The evidence for the apocalypse happening soon is at http://everythingimportant.org , which is completely unrelated to total genomic decay.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#56 Jan 22, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> That is nonsense. The evidence for the apocalypse happening soon is at http://everythingimportant.org , which is completely unrelated to total genomic decay.
Shooob, you do realize that we can tell that you are linking to your own garbage website, don't you?

In other words you are admitting that you have nothing.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#57 Jan 23, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> I will then strive for greater humility and perfect fearlessness.
Then you got a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooong way to go...

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#58 Jan 25, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> That is nonsense. The evidence for the apocalypse happening soon is at http://everythingimportant.org , which is completely unrelated to total genomic decay.
No kidding...that was frankly the only reason i could phantom for you sticking with a paper that has such Obvious flaws!

And i brought that issue of christians .a.o. wanting to kill two thirds of the earth up before when discussing Sanford shooting at Tobacco leaves.
It clearly troubled you then.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#59 Jan 25, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> That is nonsense. The evidence for the apocalypse happening soon is at http://everythingimportant.org , which is completely unrelated to total genomic decay.
It allready happened in the time of the Makkabees and is not at all as chr. make it out to be.
1965 Baumgarten, Schaeder, Koopmans (a.k.a. no sotoriology in the NT) and Hospers.
History avant la lettre a.k.a.'vaticinia ex eventu'.

I do not do torat repeat cycles (and even then it would be different) but love the historic approach.

(that type i like appraoch reminds me of laphraoigh... or some such spelling of an excellent whiskey...yes i read about aminioacids in space again.)
DarwinPaul

Houston, TX

#60 Jan 25, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> No. You can't cope with me trumping your unattained high standard. I taught physics for three years and stepped up from my professorship to teaching high level math at a Christian high school. The state of Texas requires mathematical modeling in its Algebra II guidelines so I'm going to introduce my students to these mathematical challenges:
http://everythingimportant.org/relativity/spe...
http://everythingimportant.org/genome.pdf
Let's see if you can pass my high school Algebra II class.
You tellum Shubee, I bet their knowing that you are teaching is driving them crazy. They need polluted minds to keep their scam going. I applaud you!
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#61 Jan 25, 2014
MAAT wrote:
No kidding...that was frankly the only reason i could phantom for you sticking with a paper that has such Obvious flaws!
Don't flatter yourself. You don't understand it.

“Maccullochella macquariensis”

Since: May 08

Melbourne, Australia

#62 Jan 25, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> Don't flatter yourself. You don't understand it.
I think you just wiped out a whole box of Dude's irony meters.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#63 Jan 25, 2014
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text> No. You can't cope with me trumping your unattained high standard. I taught physics for three years and stepped up from my professorship to teaching high level math at a Christian high school. The state of Texas requires mathematical modeling in its Algebra II guidelines so I'm going to introduce my students to these mathematical challenges:
http://everythingimportant.org/relativity/spe...
http://everythingimportant.org/genome.pdf
Let's see if you can pass my high school Algebra II class.
Sorry, but there is no such thing as 'high level' math at high school. Anything you see in high school is low level. For that matter, the first course in differential equations is low level.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#65 Jan 25, 2014
revolves

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Evolution Debate Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Evolution vs. Creation (Jul '11) 7 min Aura Mytha 220,617
News It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in e... (Mar '09) 9 min Subduction Zone 160,270
News "Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really T... (Jan '12) 28 min Subduction Zone 61,244
News Atheism, for Good Reason, Fears Questions (Jun '09) 46 min Aura Mytha 28,316
News Nonsense of a high order: The confused world of... 11 hr Subduction Zone 2,675
News Book aims to prove existence of God (Nov '09) Thu Regolith Based Li... 99
News Should evolution be taught in high school? (Feb '08) Mar 16 Dogen 180,394
More from around the web