It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 151492 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

KAB

United States

#137964 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Check the 1000 opinions of creationists to the exact meaning of the word "day" in Genesis or the whole bible caboodle for that matter.
Go into conclave and when you reached a verdict about it, inform us about what it is supposed to mean. That will save us, my estimate, until the end of times further claptrap and rubbish about the bronze age mythology book. What a relief this would be.
We could go on unhindered doing real science.
The foundation issue is not what something is supposed to mean, but rather what it can mean. Once that is determined, one shouldn't be dogmatic beyond that.
KAB

United States

#137965 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Something must inspire those goat herders also to write about a talking snake. Or men growing 5 meters or taller. Or men ageing 500 years up to 1200. Etc. etc. etc. etc.
Something must have inspired the Greek to write down THEIR myths about Zeus, Apollo and Athène doing this and doing that.
Something must have inspired the Germanic people to write about Thor, Wodan, Odin and their hassling.
Something must have inspired the Indians writing about Brahma, the Hindu deva of creation, emerging from a lotus risen from the navel of Vi&#7779;&#326;u, who lies with Lakshmi on the serpent Ananta Shesha. Ah the serpent again. But at least the Indians knew how their gods came into being.
Or the Mesopotamians writing in Gilgamesh Epic that many of their ancient kings lived a staggering 30,000 years or older? TOLD you that the bible owes a lot to the older Epic.
What do you think?
What do I think the goat herder inspired to write down his flood myth?
A local flood somewhere in the middle east which left an overwhelming impression of all those that lived there. And his grandpa coming back from Mesopotamia after the exile with tall stories.
Candidates:
- the flooding of the Black Sea due to the breach of the natural dams in the Dardanelles in the aftermath of the last Ice Age due to the rising water level of the Mediterranean Sea (last ice age the sea water level was about 120 metres, see http://www.iceagenow.com/Sea_Level_During_Las... . It extended the Black Sea greatly. But this is stil under great dispute.
- as the biblical myth of Noah's deluge most likely was copied from Gilgamesh Epic, a even more likely candidate would have been the tsunami flooding
- the devastating tsunami after the Santorini volcanic eruption in 1600 BC completely wiped away the Minoan civilization form history. A tsunami of this proportions should have affected the whole of the eastern of the Mediterranean Sea, including Israel. The story of a complete nation being wiped away must have caused an ongoing series of stories told everywhere
- there is growing evidence of Holocene tsunamis in the Indian Ocean due to earth quakes (due to tectonic plate activity and the colliding of the Indian plate) or even an asteroid impact. the Sea coasts of Mesopotamia are those of the Indian Ocean.
The post with the one monster was in a sequence of other biblical features.
IF YOU PLAY FAIR you wouldn't leave out the other monsters of the bible in a SEQUENCE about the impossibilities of the bible.
BTW, talking about fair debate: where are the answer son my unanswered questions?
I generally respond just to the post to which I'm responding.

BTW, enjoy your thoughts. I'll stick with specific data regarding specific individual items, a sound basis from which real progress can be made.
KAB

United States

#137966 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't it clear that Genesis (talking snake) tales were meant literally?
Or, the other way: isn't it clear that the Genesis tale of Noah's deluge wasn't literal?
I asked about author's demonstrated intent. You ask about readers' judgment. Go figure!
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#137967 Aug 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
The foundation issue is not what something is supposed to mean, but rather what it can mean. Once that is determined, one shouldn't be dogmatic beyond that.
What question did you answer here?
NOT one of mine.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#137968 Aug 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked about author's demonstrated intent. You ask about readers' judgment. Go figure!
NOOOOOO I asked about author's demonstrated intent.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#137969 Aug 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I generally respond just to the post to which I'm responding.
BTW, enjoy your thoughts. I'll stick with specific data regarding specific individual items, a sound basis from which real progress can be made.
WE TOO with specific data regarding specific individual items, a sound basis from which real progress can be made.

That made us conclude that the flood never happened.

See? EVERY TIME you are paid back in your own coin.
And STILL you don't get it.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#137970 Aug 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Provide confirming data.
Provide confirming data about your flood.
DON'T demand confirming data when you are not able to provide them yourself.
That is measuring with double standards.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#137971 Aug 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I have no reservations about confirmed conclusions. I provide them regularly.
I didn't notice.
Could you provide us of an example?
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#137972 Aug 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Please provide data confirming the upper limit of variation rate(s).
Chimney, and the whole caboodle of one year is just starting again!
See you next year!
KAB

United States

#137973 Aug 20, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You are just in denial of the logical and scientific implications of those findings.
Because your cult demands is.
Just admit it. You have been duped by people, most of whom are your intellectual inferiors because they told an initially convincing lie.
You are not alone. Millions have fallen for the same lie and have escaped. There is a lot of support out there for recovering JW. Thousands of web sites, books, and even therapists who specialize in your demographic. They all say that life is better outside of the cult. Wonder what they have that you don't have.
The former JWs I have known lack the personal commitment to stick with what they know to be true but isn't easy.
KAB

United States

#137974 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course we need to update your ever failing memory again: the researchers used a detecting technique based on the principle that all chemical compounds and elements emit their own, distinct wavelength signature in the reflected light. This technique reveals all compounds and chemical elements present in a specimen. If they would have detected the particular signature of salts in remarkable quantities, they would have reported it. As a matter of fact, they DID the remarkable LOW concentration of salinity in the lake's water. But they didn't report anything about the salinity of the lake's core.
The reason for that is the enormous amount of chemical compounds and elements. In 2005, a group from the University of Berne, in Switzerland, tried to determine the total number of stable compounds with up to eleven atoms of just carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and fluorine. Their number was just under 18 billion, but a subsequent analysis found they ignored many common chemicals, including many which could be easily ordered online, and the number may have been low by as much as three orders of magnitude. Even looking at just small chemicals, there is still an absolutely tremendous number of variations.
To account for all the compounds NOT found in the chemical analysis of the lake's core would require a listing of some millions of pages.
Hence, the researchers confined themselves to only report the geologically relevant compounds they found. Like the remarkable low saline concentrations of the lake's water.
We did this already, and here you are giving it the ServPro approach, like it never even happened! You have just totally misrepresented the Pingualuit article, again. I think I may be done with you, so if you don't get responses you'll know why. You're not even paying attention.

You may be able to redeem yourself by providing quotes from the article showing what they did obtain with the scanner, and any salinity comments they made.
KAB

United States

#137975 Aug 20, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I do not believe it is a misrepresentation of your position. It is the logical consequence of your position, whether you seem to recognise it or not. For evidence based science to have an account so dramatically different from Genesis in so many ways (including the Flood), would require that God has tampered with the evidence so to speak.
Yes, a number of unrealistic assumptions could alter the outcome for the mt-DNA analysis. But we build our understanding on what we observe. We do not simply alter the observed parameters so that science will fit your creation myth. You would not give any regard to a Hindu who did that to make science match the Bhagavad Gita, so why should I give any regard to you doing that?
You're entitled to your beliefs. Such is the stuff from which religions are made. If you want to substantively take issue with something, provide specific data on specific items. Perhaps you can start with a point from Genesis. It isn't required that God tampered with the evidence. You don't know what the rates of variation acqusition and attrition were in the past. You always rely on that when you need to speed up evolution, and slow it down when needed to argue against God's involvement.

If you want to examine Hinduism, provide a specific point, and we can consider it.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#137976 Aug 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
The former JWs I have known lack the personal commitment to stick with what they know to be true but isn't easy.
I think that most former cult dwellers leave their cults because they are fed up with constant indoctrination and the poignant dissonance between their doctrines and the reality around them.

Like this guy: http://old.richarddawkins.net/articles/3198-w...

And WE know this because we hear of their witnesses.
YOU will never hear of them again because you are forbidden to talk with them again.
You are even to abandon your own family.
You will expel them and from that moment on this person will be abandoned as a piece of dirt.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#137977 Aug 20, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually I think effectively we have. Its a big subject and we discussed virtually every aspect of it at some length. What parts would you say are missing?
Do you yet understand HOW a mitochondrial mutation arising in a single female and passed down only through her female descendants gets to propagate through a population? I am not sure you get this basic point. If you want to drag back through this whole discussion again, perhaps we should start there, because I am not convinced you get it (based on several recent questions you have asked).
In your own words, KAB, describe the propagation through the population and how it happens.
The missing part is my agreement at each step.

mtDNA is passed, as is, barring mutation, thru females. An mtDNA mutation is passed by the mutated female to all her offspring, and her daughters pass it on. Thus, if one of her daughters mutates, and is the only one who has daughters, then her mother's type terminates.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#137978 Aug 20, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I disagree. A free force diagram of the issue would clearly show the upward force provided by the base rock, something you simply refused to accept. This along with other factors you simply refused to agree with, in spite of it being nothing but standard physics. So its not likely that anyone is going to agree with your conclusions.
Not only that, but you still fail to recognise that even if the ice cap did not float, the evidence of a Biblical scale flood at the top would be unmistakable. This is why most creationists try to avoid the whole issue by claiming that the ice caps are post flood in origin. Again, once you start claiming that the entire himalayas rose up after the flood, and that God interceded to added variety back into the mt-DNA, then I really do not see the purpose of your program. You can just "magic" anything you like and that makes even discussing the evidence pointless.
Does the upward force provided by the base rock equal the downward force from above, which is why an object on the bottom base rock stops when it gets to the bottom, because the base rock provides whatever force is needed to stop the object from going any further downward?
KAB

Wilson, NC

#137979 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
What question did you answer here?
NOT one of mine.
What question did you ask in the post to which I responded?
KAB

Wilson, NC

#137980 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
NOOOOOO I asked about author's demonstrated intent.
Here's your question,

"Isn't it clear that Genesis (talking snake) tales were meant literally?"

The author is nowhere referenced. Your question is content based.
Unlike Aesop, the author is not in the picture.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#137981 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Provide confirming data about your flood.
DON'T demand confirming data when you are not able to provide them yourself.
That is measuring with double standards.
I don't know of any physical data confirming the global flood.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#137982 Aug 20, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
I didn't notice.
Could you provide us of an example?
Here's a recent confirmation,

http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/TFA...
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#137983 Aug 20, 2014
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey,ya ol hillbilly. Glad to see you're still kickin.
I finally have a patron saint. Saint Maximilian Kolbe, priest and martyr, is the only saint to have held a Ham Radio License, SP3RN. God willing, I'll live to open a bottle of Champagne when I hit fifty years licensed.
What's up with you?
Hey you old flaming liberal you!:-) Congrats on the Ham License! I'm to poor for HAM....I'm just a poor ole CB guy, but did have a cool sign off....

10-4 from malfunction Junction
The state of confusion
Bad luck City
and do not eat chicken on suday
from the back of the shack where it's all at
your number 1 fun in the sun
getting down to the nitty gritty in the big city
The KFM9259...the Carolina banjer man
Lookin mighty pretty
From the upside
the down side
the mountain side
the country side
in the air
in the grass
hit the pedal and hit the gas
on the flip side of the flop
We'll be seein ya, or CBing ya, which ever comes first,
The KFM9259
the one and only
the lover of laughter
slicker and quicker
the pro of the puns
The KFM9259 is East bound and down........

hahahaha.....boy, that was back in the Smokey and the Bandit days.....lol.
Glad you are still kickin!!!

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