It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 165406 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#127776 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no substitution of faith and prayer for transfusions. Refusing transfusions is a matter of obedience to Biblical direction. It is not done with the thought that Jehovah will provide alternative aid.
Silly. The bible forbids the eating of blood. A transfusion is not eating.
KAB wrote:
That being stated, increasing medical experience and research indicates that transfusions cause more deaths than they prevent
Bullshit. Where's your precious data, Word Weasel?

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#127777 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no substitution of faith and prayer for transfusions. Refusing transfusions is a matter of obedience to Biblical direction. It is not done with the thought that Jehovah will provide alternative aid. That being stated, increasing medical experience and research indicates that transfusions cause more deaths than they prevent
It was a dietary rule, not a medical one, ya moron.

"That being stated, cult written completely baseless propaganda bullshit and insanely unconscionable lies."
MMLandJ

Charlotte, NC

#127778 Mar 20, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
Assuming God created the universe is already jumping to conclusions.
Actually, what I am assuming is that God provided the "body containing all mass, energy, and spacetime in the Universe that was compressed to an infinitely dense point resulting in the Big Bang."
From that point on, matter, reacting in accord with the physical and chemical laws, ultimately self assembled into stars, planets, and life on earth.
Chimney1 wrote:
Yes, as can many other texts. The problem starts when one confuses the Bible's use as a springboard for personal meaning versus a literal rendering of events that never happened,
such as a world wide flood 4500 years ago or the literal existence of Adam and Eve.
Unfortunately, the literalists have assaulted Christianity, resulting in the kind of animosity commonly seen on these forums, and the confusion you speak of.
Chimney1 wrote:
But then that is partly the Bible's fault, don't you think? Isn't it the Bible that demands belief without evidence, on pain of eternal torture? Does that sound moral to you?
This is exactly what I alluded to above. The literalists have forced this interpretation on the bible, creating all this contradiction and animosity. The main theme of the bible isn't about going to heaven or hell,
it is about making both yourself and the world better. To put it biblically, bringing the kingdom of God to earth.
Chimney1 wrote:
So is the Quran. So is the Bhagavad Gita. Providing comfort and providing truth are two different things.
I never claimed the bible was the only text to bring spiritual comfort and inspiration to people. That other texts offer the same, does not diminish the bible.

Finally, let me just say that I have found your arguments on mtDNA quite informative and effective. Thank you!

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#127779 Mar 20, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, what I am assuming is that God provided the "body containing all mass, energy, and spacetime in the Universe that was compressed to an infinitely dense point resulting in the Big Bang."
From that point on, matter, reacting in accord with the physical and chemical laws, ultimately self assembled into stars, planets, and life on earth.
I don't assume that, but I grant its possible. Nobody really knows.
Unfortunately, the literalists have assaulted Christianity, resulting in the kind of animosity commonly seen on these forums, and the confusion you speak of.
<quoted text>
This is exactly what I alluded to above. The literalists have forced this interpretation on the bible, creating all this contradiction and animosity. The main theme of the bible isn't about going to heaven or hell,
it is about making both yourself and the world better. To put it biblically, bringing the kingdom of God to earth.
I would like to think that was what Jesus was trying to say. But once you get to Matthew and Revelations - written long after Jesus' death - the message is all about "if you don't believe in Jesus, Son of God, you go to burn eternally in torment. In fact believing in Jesus as the Son of God and repenting to Him is the only pass/fail criterion". Not quite the same thing, is it. Its like the heart of the message got corrupted almost from the start. Submission to the Christ is everything. That is madness.
never claimed the bible was the only text to bring spiritual comfort and inspiration to people. That other texts offer the same, does not diminish the bible.
Seen as a mythical/historical chronicle of the Jews, and as a source of some of the most powerful and poetic literature ever produced, I would never diminish the Bible. But trying to force it on people as an authoritative scientific textbook, I am forced to diminish it.
Finally, let me just say that I have found your arguments on mtDNA quite informative and effective. Thank you!
No worries, thanks. All the best.
MMLandJ

Charlotte, NC

#127780 Mar 20, 2014
ChromiuMan wrote:
No, it is your onus to "prove" your fundamental assertion (Yahweh exists) is correct, else it and every other assertion you make following it is meaningless.
Isn't it your fundamental assertion that God doesn't exist, and yet you have no proof as to where the "it" (before the Big Bang) came from? Are all your further assertions also meaningless?

Is it a meaningless statement if I assert that after the big bang, matter, reacting in accord with the physical and chemical laws, ultimately self assembled into stars, planets, and life on earth?
Is it a meaningless statement if I assert that the Noah flood story of genesis did not result in a global flood?
Is it a meaningless statement if I assert that Adam and Eve were not actual people but a metaphor for the human race?
Is it a meaningless statement if I assert that the the Australopiths represent exactly what human evolution predicted, part ape/part human?
ChromiuMan wrote:
Be advised that this viewpoint is the Bible's own viewpoint. There is no other reason given for the human race to exist except to give adoration to God or suffer the consequences.
I see you have bought into the literalists interpretation of the bible.
ChromiuMan wrote:
I truly get tired of saying this. It is not my "interpretation" that any god created the universe. Please >>attempt<< to wrap your mind around that concept.
It is your literalist interpretation of the bible, otherwise you wouldn't have written this:
"You are implying that "it" created the law of physics 13,800,000,000 years ago so that "it" could create the human species expressly for the purpose of worshiping "it" and
throwing the chaff into a burning pit if individuals dare exercise critical thinking or free will."

Your interpretation plays right into the hands of the fundamentalist literalists that you seem to despise. Since you recommended a Hawking book for me, let me return the courtesy by
recommending "Speaking Christian" by Marcus Borg. This book might surprise you.
ChromiuMan wrote:
I have no issue with gleaning wisdom from the Bible or any other source, but as the saying goes, "take what you need and leave the rest."
Good to know.
ChromiuMan wrote:
There is no dignity awarded anyone or anything by cuckoos and space cadets glomming onto mystical fantasies and contrived dogmas.
Why are you so angry?
ChromiuMan wrote:
Do not wish on me the delusional bliss of a religious lobotomy - I do NOT appreciate it.
Is it delusional to want to be a better person? Is it delusional to want to improve the world? Is it delusional to love your neighbor?
Is it delusional to have compassion for the marginalized, even cuckoos and space cadets?

It was not my intent to upset you, and for that I apologize.
KAB

United States

#127781 Mar 20, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Christmas is a traditional time of people getting together, a universal holiday. I would be a hypocrite if I pretended to regard it as any more than that, to me. For most Christians its a time they think about how nice it was that Jesus was born although they know better than to take the date seriously.
Christmas was a mid-winter festival long before Christianity, a celebration that the shortest day was passing. Just because Christianity co-opted an earlier tradition is no more offensive than the fact that they co-opted Roman architecture. Really, I don't know what your fuss is about.
Its also good to be reminded once a year to remember our loved ones and offer them a token of appreciation.
However, having a party anytime is always a good practice.
Are you sure that JW spurning Christmas is not just troublesome begging-to-differ?
Knowledge of the holiday's origins and background is sufficient reason to disconnect from it. If I want a special day I'll formulate it from scratch in harmony with what is not known to be incorrect.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#127782 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Knowledge of the holiday's origins and background is sufficient reason to disconnect from it. If I want a special day I'll formulate it from scratch in harmony with what is not known to be incorrect.
Ironic, since you construct your cosmology and history from what is known to be incorrect.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127783 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for the data ... NOT.

Minion of data that you are.

/sarcasm
(it is a darn shame I have to spell it out).
KAB

Wilson, NC

#127784 Mar 20, 2014
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
Coming from someone who won't give a gift at xmas or let his kid hunt easter eggs or trick or treat?
There's a difference between holiday and Holy Day, Ebenezer Stooge.
I see your point. What relationship could there possibly be between holiday and Holy Day?
Wasn't Scrooge opposed to the meriment rather than the religious trappings of the holyday?

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127785 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Whatever is on the site of the ancient city is nothing like it was, is it?

LOL. Lamest argument ever.

If I could have less respect for you this would have done it.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127786 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I see your point. What relationship could there possibly be between holiday and Holy Day?
Wasn't Scrooge opposed to the meriment rather than the religious trappings of the holyday?

origins of words is only one clue as to their current meaning.

If you were the linguistic expert you portend yourself to be you would known that.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#127787 Mar 20, 2014
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Silly. The bible forbids the eating of blood. A transfusion is not eating.
<quoted text>
Bullshit. Where's your precious data, Word Weasel?
What do you suppose Jehovah found unacceptable about eating blood?

The following study is a bit dated, but I doubt the results are what you would expect even for back then.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18679112

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127788 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no substitution of faith and prayer for transfusions. Refusing transfusions is a matter of obedience to Biblical direction. It is not done with the thought that Jehovah will provide alternative aid. That being stated, increasing medical experience and research indicates that transfusions cause more deaths than they prevent

Such perversion of what the Bible actually says. The Bible does not address blood transfusions at all.

Also, there is no such thing as a "jehovah". That is literally a made up word that just shoves vowels from one word into another word. In simpler terms it is nonsense. It was made up by a Catholic Priest from Spain (and JWs live in envy of the Catholics) in the 11th century. You worship a made up word in a man made cult that is wrong about far more issues than they are right about.

How very proud you must be.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#127789 Mar 20, 2014
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
It was a dietary rule, not a medical one, ya moron.
"That being stated, cult written completely baseless propaganda bullshit and insanely unconscionable lies."
What's the dietary concern regarding blood?
HTS

Mandan, ND

#127790 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no substitution of faith and prayer for transfusions. Refusing transfusions is a matter of obedience to Biblical direction. It is not done with the thought that Jehovah will provide alternative aid. That being stated, increasing medical experience and research indicates that transfusions cause more deaths than they prevent
You need to be very careful in your interpretation of data. If you lump all transfusions into one category, which includes many terminally ill cancer patients who have bone marrow suppression secondary to chemotherapy, then the benefit of transfusions is not great.

If you isolate a group of patients who receive RBC transfusions for acute blood loss secondary to trauma, then transfusions clearly save lives. The risk of transfusions in the US is very low. Fatal blood group incompatibility is very rare. Infectious disease, particular hepatitis, is a measurable risk, but that risk is far outweighed by the benefits in life threatening trauma.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#127791 Mar 20, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Ironic, since you construct your cosmology and history from what is known to be incorrect.
Perhaps you could cite a specific example. I suggest quoting me would be best. Otherwise, you're almost certain to make a mistake.
KAB

Wilson, NC

#127792 Mar 20, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Such perversion of what the Bible actually says. The Bible does not address blood transfusions at all.
Also, there is no such thing as a "jehovah". That is literally a made up word that just shoves vowels from one word into another word. In simpler terms it is nonsense. It was made up by a Catholic Priest from Spain (and JWs live in envy of the Catholics) in the 11th century. You worship a made up word in a man made cult that is wrong about far more issues than they are right about.
How very proud you must be.
The Bible refers to blood, the principles related to it, and its use at the time.

BTW, I'm extremely gratified to not be you. I couldn't live like that.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127793 Mar 20, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
The Bible refers to blood, the principles related to it, and its use at the time.
BTW, I'm extremely gratified to not be you. I couldn't live like that.

My standing recommendation to you that you actually read posts, comprehend them, and only then respond to them.



Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Such perversion of what the Bible actually says. The Bible does not address blood transfusions at all.
Also, there is no such thing as a "jehovah". That is literally a made up word that just shoves vowels from one word into another word. In simpler terms it is nonsense. It was made up by a Catholic Priest from Spain (and JWs live in envy of the Catholics) in the 11th century. You worship a made up word in a man made cult that is wrong about far more issues than they are right about.
How very proud you must be.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127794 Mar 20, 2014
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to be very careful in your interpretation of data. If you lump all transfusions into one category, which includes many terminally ill cancer patients who have bone marrow suppression secondary to chemotherapy, then the benefit of transfusions is not great.
If you isolate a group of patients who receive RBC transfusions for acute blood loss secondary to trauma, then transfusions clearly save lives. The risk of transfusions in the US is very low. Fatal blood group incompatibility is very rare. Infectious disease, particular hepatitis, is a measurable risk, but that risk is far outweighed by the benefits in life threatening trauma.

Nice post HTS. I give credit when credit is due.

KAB

Wilson, NC

#127795 Mar 20, 2014
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to be very careful in your interpretation of data. If you lump all transfusions into one category, which includes many terminally ill cancer patients who have bone marrow suppression secondary to chemotherapy, then the benefit of transfusions is not great.
If you isolate a group of patients who receive RBC transfusions for acute blood loss secondary to trauma, then transfusions clearly save lives. The risk of transfusions in the US is very low. Fatal blood group incompatibility is very rare. Infectious disease, particular hepatitis, is a measurable risk, but that risk is far outweighed by the benefits in life threatening trauma.
At least I provide data to interpret. I notice that you, not surprisingly, provide none. You just provide dataless assertions.

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