It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 167941 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

MMLandJ

Charlotte, NC

#127696 Mar 17, 2014
KAB wrote:
Thanks for providing confirming data showing the flood did not represent evil drowning spiritual life.
It's unfortunate that you are so willing to misrepresent what I stated about the parable of Noah's flood. Do you really think this is wise?

Let's review my actual statement:
"This parable [Noachian Flood] has to do with the way God protects mankind when the mind is flooded with the falsities of evil, which threaten to drown out and extinguish all spiritual life."

As can be seen in this statement, it is the "mind being flooded with evil" and NOT " a flood representing evil." Remember, a parable is an allegorical story and not a literal one. It seems as if your literalness is constraining your ability to understand this parable.

Some additional data confirming the parable of the flood:

"And God looked upon the world and saw how degenerate, debased, and vicious it was, for all humanity had corrupted their way upon the earth, and lost their true direction." (Amplified Bible, Gen. 6, verse 12)

MMLandJ

Charlotte, NC

#127697 Mar 17, 2014
KAB wrote:
It's unfortunate you're so willing to accept something as correct just because it's been stated. Do you really think that is wise?
Could not the same be said of you? Perhaps you can flood my mind with data which shows Noah's flood actually happened.
MMLandJ

Charlotte, NC

#127698 Mar 17, 2014
KAB wrote:
Why did you choose to refer to drowning in conjunction with the flood?
A parable is an allegorical story. "Drowning" and "flooded" are terms that can refer to things other than water. That is the point of allegory.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#127699 Mar 17, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
It's unfortunate that you are so willing to misrepresent what I stated about the parable of Noah's flood. Do you really think this is wise?
Let's review my actual statement:
"This parable [Noachian Flood] has to do with the way God protects mankind when the mind is flooded with the falsities of evil, which threaten to drown out and extinguish all spiritual life."
As can be seen in this statement, it is the "mind being flooded with evil" and NOT " a flood representing evil." Remember, a parable is an allegorical story and not a literal one. It seems as if your literalness is constraining your ability to understand this parable.
Some additional data confirming the parable of the flood:
"And God looked upon the world and saw how degenerate, debased, and vicious it was, for all humanity had corrupted their way upon the earth, and lost their true direction." (Amplified Bible, Gen. 6, verse 12)
That does not "hold water." Inevitably, innocent, virtuous and honorable people would also have perished wholesale and unjustly in the mythological cataclysm - for God so loved/loathed the world. Then it would go on to be repopulated with the same degenerate, debased and vicious humanity that it contained before - sometimes with full approval and support of Yahweh Himself. There is no lesson in that. Da Flud is not literal and not a parable, it is simply a myth.
KAB

Scottsdale, AZ

#127700 Mar 17, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Nice try, a bit pathetic. I have given you examples of why some regions would be conserved compared to others. Its about the degree of specificity required in the proteins generated or the control regions for those proteins. Its about the fact that certain parts of say cytochrome-C are highly specific and other parts are not. As was explained clearly.
Therefore, knowing some regions change more quickly than others, and knowing why this can happen, as we do...
....when you attempt to time the regions that reveal the nested hierarchy of descent, you must time the rate of change on THOSE regions. To try to gauge the rate of change on those regions by looking at different, hypervariable regions, is either stupid or dishonest.
You take your pick among those two choices for the creationists who tried this on. I am going with dishonest. They are simply liars, as you are. You have been given ample explanation, repeatedly, but refuse to accept a conclusion you cannot refute, a conclusion that is not even difficult to understand once you have a basic knowledge of the issues which, thanks to me, my patience and forbearance, you should have by now.
I notice you still haven't identified the location(s) of the highly conserved parts of human mtDNA. As a starting reference, I remind you that control and coding are two major regions.
KAB

Scottsdale, AZ

#127701 Mar 17, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The objective context i.e what we can glean from historical and archeological records, is a semi-barbarous semitic tribe in the middle east had creation myths cobbled together from surrounding stories and threw in a bit of its own, carried the stories orally until they were written down centuries later, and some of the stories bear some resemblance to some events of the period, while others do not.
The early claims that Yahweh was "their god" evolved into the idea that this was the only God rather later, and the introduction of heaven and hell and clear dualism only emerged and were added to the tradition when the Jews were taken into the Zoroastrian Persian Empire which already had these ideas along with its own version of "one true God".
And now, its objectively obvious that those who reject modern science and cling to these ideas only do so out of fear for their own deaths and the bribe offered by the modern versions of this religion (Christianity, Islam) that if they do what they are told they will escape the finality of death.
So, self deception and fear. Merely an appeal to your lowest impulses dressed up in finery. For which you sacrifice your mind, since your mind knows all too well that there is no evidence on Earth that can save you from your mortality, and you cannot handle that.
Thanks for the data ... NOT!
There's a subtle note of fear in your post. Why is that do you think?
If you weren't on his side, I'm sure Dogen would be declaring projection.
KAB

Scottsdale, AZ

#127702 Mar 17, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Its unreliability has been established. And not just with the Flood fiasco. Even Christian and Jewish scholars of the Bible, who do attempt some real objectivity, accept that. You do not get to be objective just by repeating empty claims that you are.
That's why I provide data (upon request if not initially) for virtually all my assertions.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127703 Mar 17, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I think if you checked you would find that the slough involved loose material up the inside surface of the crater wall.

If that were true then just any ole thing could have caused it. Strong seasonal rains one year.

The crater itself is made of very hard material which has helped in it preservation of its relatively pristine condition.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127704 Mar 17, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I notice you still haven't identified the location(s) of the highly conserved parts of human mtDNA. As a starting reference, I remind you that control and coding are two major regions.

Ah, the sob has spoken.

Please learn some science.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127705 Mar 17, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for the data ... NOT!
There's a subtle note of fear in your post. Why is that do you think?
If you weren't on his side, I'm sure Dogen would be declaring projection.

Why would I be declaring projection when he was simply giving a narrative history?

I would not do that no matter what side I am on. Clearly you do not understand what I am saying at all.

Not that I ever thought you did.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#127706 Mar 17, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
That's why I provide data (upon request if not initially) for virtually all my assertions.

While you have backed off your prior assertion, you have not yet back off enough.

It is a lie for you to claim you always provide data when you go out of your way to provide it.

Remember, you have never provided data on why ice does not float.

Just one example that I like to bring up since you made such a fool of yourself over the issue.

MMLandJ

Hamer, SC

#127707 Mar 17, 2014
ChromiuMan wrote:
That does not "hold water." Inevitably, innocent, virtuous and honorable people would also have perished wholesale and unjustly in the mythological cataclysm - for God so loved/loathed the world. Then it would go on to be repopulated with the same degenerate, debased and vicious humanity that it contained before - sometimes with full approval and support of Yahweh Himself.
There is no lesson in that. Da Flud is not literal and not a parable, it is simply a myth.
The parable of Noah's Flood is about how God can drown out the evil which floods the mind, restoring one's direction (spirituality). As far as the bible is concerned, this is indeed an important lesson. That the story is not literal and therefore must be a parable is realized when one recognizes the incongruity of God and genocide in the flood story, just as you have done here.

There is evidence of a significant Mesopatamium flood around 6000 years ago which most likely inspired the story of Noah's flood. So the story itself has some basis in fact. But it must also be said that there is no evidence confirming an all out global flood.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#127708 Mar 17, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
The parable of Noah's Flood is about how God can drown out the evil which floods the mind, restoring one's direction (spirituality). As far as the bible is concerned, this is indeed an important lesson. That the story is not literal and therefore must be a parable is realized when one recognizes the incongruity of God and genocide in the flood story, just as you have done here.
There is evidence of a significant Mesopatamium flood around 6000 years ago which most likely inspired the story of Noah's flood. So the story itself has some basis in fact. But it must also be said that there is no evidence confirming an all out global flood.
I get it already - people will try anything to legitimize the "divine wisdom" of the "Holy" Bible.
The Noah story was just adopted from earlier Sumerian legends. It is certainly possible there actually was an exceptional local flood at some point that formed the foundation of that legend, but it would have had nothing to do with the book of Genesis and even less to do with Elohim.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#127709 Mar 18, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I notice you still haven't identified the location(s) of the highly conserved parts of human mtDNA. As a starting reference, I remind you that control and coding are two major regions.
More of this red herring. The salient point is that the parts used to provide the nested hierarchy of human ancestry must be the same parts that are used to calibrate timing. You should understand why, by now. I did give you those sequences too, months ago.

If you for some irrelevant and pointless reason wish to know what the most conserved regions are, you can always look it up, for example

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2...

and others, of you really want to go down that route.

But you have not pointed out why naming them matters in our discussion, and obviously you are unable to do so, because of course it does not matter. You are merely grasping at straws.

Similarly the distinction you try to draw between coding and control regions. Its irrelevant. In either case there may be more or less conserved regions depending on the organism's sensitivity to changes in those regions. A region of either coding or control where small differences disrupted function would be highly conserved in either case. And area of either where the changes had little effect on function would not be highly conserved, and might even be hypervariable.

But whether the regions used to determine the nested hierarchy happen to be control, coding, or both, is not relevant.

The fact that the SAME region must be used for time calibration is relevant.

Try to burrow into pointless details if you like, but it wont help you. All that matters is that if different regions vary survivably at different rates (due to the degree of required specificity), and certain regions have revealed the nested hierarchy of ancestry, then we must apply the rate of change found IN THOSE REGIONS and not others, as (lying) creationists have attempted to do in their efforts to discredit the science.
KAB

United States

#127710 Mar 18, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
It's unfortunate that you are so willing to misrepresent what I stated about the parable of Noah's flood. Do you really think this is wise?
Let's review my actual statement:
"This parable [Noachian Flood] has to do with the way God protects mankind when the mind is flooded with the falsities of evil, which threaten to drown out and extinguish all spiritual life."
As can be seen in this statement, it is the "mind being flooded with evil" and NOT " a flood representing evil." Remember, a parable is an allegorical story and not a literal one. It seems as if your literalness is constraining your ability to understand this parable.
Some additional data confirming the parable of the flood:
"And God looked upon the world and saw how degenerate, debased, and vicious it was, for all humanity had corrupted their way upon the earth, and lost their true direction." (Amplified Bible, Gen. 6, verse 12)
What does the flood in the Noachian Flood account represent?
KAB

United States

#127711 Mar 18, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
Could not the same be said of you? Perhaps you can flood my mind with data which shows Noah's flood actually happened.
I don't know of any such flood of data (Hebrews 4:12).
KAB

United States

#127712 Mar 18, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
A parable is an allegorical story. "Drowning" and "flooded" are terms that can refer to things other than water. That is the point of allegory.
To what does the flood in the Noachian Flood account refer other than water?
KAB

United States

#127713 Mar 18, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
If that were true then just any ole thing could have caused it. Strong seasonal rains one year.
The crater itself is made of very hard material which has helped in it preservation of its relatively pristine condition.
Out of 1.4 million years, wasn't the slough day a magical day for rain at the Pingualuit crater?!!
KAB

United States

#127714 Mar 18, 2014
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would I be declaring projection when he was simply giving a narrative history?
I would not do that no matter what side I am on. Clearly you do not understand what I am saying at all.
Not that I ever thought you did.
Oh, perennially inattentive one,
Here's the pertinent part of Chim's post again.

"And now, its objectively obvious that those who reject modern science and cling to these ideas only do so out of fear for their own deaths and the bribe offered by the modern versions of this religion (Christianity, Islam) that if they do what they are told they will escape the finality of death.
So, self deception and fear. Merely an appeal to your lowest impulses dressed up in finery. For which you sacrifice your mind, since your mind knows all too well that there is no evidence on Earth that can save you from your mortality, and you cannot handle that."

Which part of the narative history is that?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#127715 Mar 18, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Out of 1.4 million years, wasn't the slough day a magical day for rain at the Pingualuit crater?!!
No, it was not.

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