It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 170035 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

mrksman11

Asheville, NC

#126827 Feb 13, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll take your answer to mean you have no evidence that any hominid fossils known today are forgeries.
The real stories..........
Nebraska Man
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_nebras...
"Most other scientists were skeptical even of the more modest claim that the Hesperopithecus tooth belonged to a primate. It is simply not true that Nebraska Man was widely accepted as an ape-man, or even as an ape, by scientists, and its effect upon the scientific thinking of the time was negligible. For example, in his two-volume book Human Origins published during what was supposedly the heyday of Nebraska Man (1924), George MacCurdy dismissed Nebraska Man in a single footnote:
"In 1920 [sic], Osborn described two molars from the Pliocene of Nebraska; he attributed these to an anthropoid primate to which he has given the name Hesperopithecus. The teeth are not well preserved, so that the validity of Osborn's determination has not yet been generally accepted."
"The whole episode was actually an excellent example of the scientific process working at its best. Given a problematic identification, scientists investigated further, found data which falsified their earlier ideas, and promptly abandoned them."
Java Man
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_java.h...
Heidelberg Man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_heidelberge...
etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution
I have no problem with your position, but Piltdown did not help your cause of supporting human from non-human evolution. And it was proclaimed by many scientists and teachers for years as the missing link.

"Whoever perpetrated the crime, it is considered to be one of the most damaging scientific hoaxes of all time, because it set the development of evolutionary theory back for years while researchers labored pointlessly to integrate a fake skull into the fossil record."

http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/pe...

Piltdown was influential because it was taught as a missing link in textbooks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups...

And it also shows that scientific interpretation concerning specimens can be wrong, and be accepted although wrong, for many years.
mrksman11

Asheville, NC

#126828 Feb 13, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
As someone has just pointed out, observing finch beaks, ring species and fruit flies is not observing natural selection or a designer. Forces cannot be observed. One must rely on observing an effect the said force has on the biotic/abiotic environment. The overall pattern of hominid fossils would be an example of an observed effect of human evolution. As such, human evolution is just as observable as micro-evolution.
ok, micro-evolution isn't observable. I have no problem with that.
mrksman11

Asheville, NC

#126829 Feb 13, 2014
MMLandJ wrote:
<quoted text>
If you use "observation by definition," then please tell us what "blood pressure under stress" looks like.
You assumed I was referencing definition #5. I wasn't. I was referencing Definition #1. I'm sorry, I thought that was obvious.
mrksman11

Asheville, NC

#126830 Feb 13, 2014
tangled bank wrote:
<quoted text>

I see you still don't know the significance of the foramen magnum and its location in the various of groups of extinct and extant apes (as well as other anatomical features).
I understand it, and how it defines differing life forms. I don't see how you can take one example, and propose that it was the descendant for another.
mrksman11

Asheville, NC

#126831 Feb 13, 2014
tangled bank wrote:
Please provide the evidence which shows hominid fossils have been fabricated for money.
I didn't say they were. That was Mike. I took his word for it. Ask him.
mrksman11

Asheville, NC

#126832 Feb 13, 2014
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Says the most biased guy on the planet.
I am not biased. Nor am I stupid.
I know you are not stupid. But I also know you definitely are biased.
mrksman11

Asheville, NC

#126833 Feb 13, 2014
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Presented by who?
Dawson
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text> Where?
England
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>When?
dec 18th, 1912
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text> Sorry but I don't take your word for anything besides banjos.
Google works pretty good..... thanks but my knowledge of banjos is limited....:-)
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#126834 Feb 13, 2014
mrksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>GOD didn't create fossils that proved evolution. Fossils don't show organisms changing and adapting.....especially into something different. All a fossil can prove is that something once existed, died, and left an image of itself. THey do not show heritage. That is artistic interpretation.
Funny how that artistic interpretation is capable of predicting what kind of fossils should appear in what strata.

You stopped lying for Jesus yet, Markie? Doesn't look like it.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#126835 Feb 13, 2014
mrksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>Dawson<quoted text>England<quoted text>dec 18th, 1912<quoted text>Google works pretty good..... thanks but my knowledge of banjos is limited....:-)
Lemme guess, Piltdown?

Remind us again why you think it's fake when you reject the science that demonstrated the forgery in the first place.
The Dude

Macclesfield, UK

#126836 Feb 13, 2014
tangled bank wrote:
The following exchange is an almost exact duplicate from Oct, 2012
<quoted text>
Temporal and morphological sequence of progressively modern human features showing intermediate human/ape forms as required by evolution:
http://darwiniana.org/hominid.htm
http://anthro.palomar.edu/hominid/australo_1....
Temporal and morphological sequence of progressively modern human features showing increasing cranial capacity and larger body size as required by evolution:
http://www.pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/f...
http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/09/fun-w...
<quoted text>
Please provide the evidence which shows hominid fossils have been fabricated for money.
Well they did it once!

So if any show evolution then they did it again.

Every single one of 'em!

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#126837 Feb 13, 2014
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Then please point to a specific sample of evidence.

Your chronic lying/self deception.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#126838 Feb 13, 2014
mrksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>Ok, and I can accept that. Then micro evolution is also not observable. Thanks.

It is not that microevolution is not observable. It is that it is much harder to observe than macroevolution.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#126839 Feb 13, 2014
mrksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>GOD didn't create fossils that proved evolution. Fossils don't show organisms changing and adapting.....especially into something different. All a fossil can prove is that something once existed, died, and left an image of itself. THey do not show heritage. That is artistic interpretation.

No, that is the weight of the evidence. That is how the scientific method works.

If you understood the scientific method you would know that.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#126840 Feb 13, 2014
mrksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>I have no problem with your position, but Piltdown did not help your cause of supporting human from non-human evolution. And it was proclaimed by many scientists and teachers for years as the missing link.
"Whoever perpetrated the crime, it is considered to be one of the most damaging scientific hoaxes of all time, because it set the development of evolutionary theory back for years while researchers labored pointlessly to integrate a fake skull into the fossil record."
http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/pe...
Piltdown was influential because it was taught as a missing link in textbooks.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups...
And it also shows that scientific interpretation concerning specimens can be wrong, and be accepted although wrong, for many years.

So we should condemn Christianity because some so called Christians have committed awful crimes? What Christians have done through out history is FAR FAR worse than a fossil error.

And if you want to reject Christians that commit these crimes as not really being christians then we can do the same to the fossil hoaxers with a clear conscious.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#126841 Feb 13, 2014
mrksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>I understand it, and how it defines differing life forms. I don't see how you can take one example, and propose that it was the descendant for another.

LOL. It is not ONE example. It is many examples.

“The love of Paleontology:”

Since: Jan 14

Discover, explore, imagine.

#126842 Feb 13, 2014
mrksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>GOD didn't create fossils that proved evolution. Fossils don't show organisms changing and adapting.....especially into something different. All a fossil can prove is that something once existed, died, and left an image of itself. THey do not show heritage. That is artistic interpretation.
But wait a sec...fossils DO prove evolution. There are tons, TONS of fossil of organisms that have changed and EVOLVED to suite their ever changing world. For example Australopithecus to humans: there are so many fossils showing animals in the evolution line between us and Australopithecus. Fossils do show organisms changing AND adapting. Like the fossils of the first fish-like organisms to grow legs, that shows them adapting: evolving lungs, growing legs, and so on. And furthermore fossils show something that existed and died MILLIONS of years ago, long before Noah's Arc was said to have come along. Also, Dinosaurs weren't even in the Bible! Do you not believe in them because the Bible did not mention them?
SupaAFC

Elgin, UK

#126843 Feb 14, 2014
Marksman,

Are you running away again? Are you basically admitting that your side are still waiting for the coming of the evolution-busting messiah because nobody for the time being can remotely refute evolution and get it kicked out of science?

What about your poll? Did you get round to reading the whole page instead of just the bits you like?

In your own time.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#126844 Feb 14, 2014
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#126845 Feb 14, 2014
PaleoGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
But wait a sec...fossils DO prove evolution. There are tons, TONS of fossil of organisms that have changed and EVOLVED to suite their ever changing world. For example Australopithecus to humans: there are so many fossils showing animals in the evolution line between us and Australopithecus. Fossils do show organisms changing AND adapting. Like the fossils of the first fish-like organisms to grow legs, that shows them adapting: evolving lungs, growing legs, and so on. And furthermore fossils show something that existed and died MILLIONS of years ago, long before Noah's Arc was said to have come along. Also, Dinosaurs weren't even in the Bible! Do you not believe in them because the Bible did not mention them?
Oh hai noob! Welcome to teh forum!

;-)

Just to let you know Markie's a chronic liar for Jesus with an extreme case of Black Knight syndrome. Words have as much affect on him as evidence.
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#126846 Feb 14, 2014
PaleoGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Also, Dinosaurs weren't even in the Bible! Do you not believe in them because the Bible did not mention them?
Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about concerning fossils, or the bible. THis was written in Job before anyone ever heard of a fossil.
Job 40 Behemoth
15 Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.
Job 41
1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
2 Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
3 Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
5 Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
6 Shall the companions make a banquet of him? shall they part him among the merchants?
7 Canst thou fill his skin with barbed irons? or his head with fish spears?
8 Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more.
9 Behold, the hope of him is in vain: shall not one be cast down even at the sight of him?
10 None is so fierce that dare stir him up: who then is able to stand before me?
11 Who hath prevented me, that I should repay him? whatsoever is under the whole heaven is mine.
12 I will not conceal his parts, nor his power, nor his comely proportion.
13 Who can discover the face of his garment? or who can come to him with his double bridle?
14 Who can open the doors of his face? his teeth are terrible round about.
15 His scales are his pride, shut up together as with a close seal.
16 One is so near to another, that no air can come between them.
17 They are joined one to another, they stick together, that they cannot be sundered.
18 By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes are like the eyelids of the morning.
19 Out of his mouth go burning lamps, and sparks of fire leap out.
20 Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as out of a seething pot or caldron.
21 His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
22 In his neck remaineth strength, and sorrow is turned into joy before him.
23 The flakes of his flesh are joined together: they are firm in themselves; they cannot be moved.
24 His heart is as firm as a stone; yea, as hard as a piece of the nether millstone.
25 When he raiseth up himself, the mighty are afraid: by reason of breakings they purify themselves.
26 The sword of him that layeth at him cannot hold: the spear, the dart, nor the habergeon.
27 He esteemeth iron as straw, and brass as rotten wood.
28 The arrow cannot make him flee: slingstones are turned with him into stubble.
29 Darts are counted as stubble: he laugheth at the shaking of a spear.
30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.
31 He maketh the deep to boil like a pot: he maketh the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 He maketh a path to shine after him; one would think the deep to be hoary.

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