It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 164269 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

KAB

United States

#120599 Aug 7, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing honest in anything you say.
I notice you avoid all reference to the Watchtower cult since I gave you a theological spanking some time ago. Your silence is nice confirmation that you cannot support your beliefs and that you live in fear that I can crumble your whole world with nothing more than facts.
All Watchtower cult members are like you. Spineless. Ignorant. Fearful.
What do you fear the most, the Watchtower, Yahweh, Satan, death.... or this question?
I can't think of a thing in the sense in which you seem to intend it.
KAB

United States

#120600 Aug 7, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No you are still not seeing it. I didnt say a new hap would be launched every 6 generations. I said the first mutation would appear probably by the 6th generation based on n=2 and doubling. In fact once the population gets high there will be some hap mutants in every generaton.
As it happens Kong offered 0 1% as science's curent estimate and I have no reason to question that.
Now return to the dispersal issue. For a new hap to replace the existing one we go back to the extremely low odds of it happening as discussed earlier. If the pop is 1000 its a 1 in a thousand chance and takes many generations. If the pop is higher it takes longer and if the pop is doubling every gen it cannot happen.
You need to think thebproblem through for yourself instead of continually getting what I say wrong.
As for the 0.1 % long term growth rate, its not really an issue in the context whether we say 0.1% or 1% or what ever. I mean a long term rate way below doubling every generation. Even if you believe as you do, a rate as high as doubling could only have applied on occasion in history or the population by now would outweigh the whole planet.
At least you acknowledge that doubling every generation for 4500 years is not even needed to achieve the present population.

Also, why do you insist that a new hap must replace an existing hap? Just let them coexist and not necessarily equally.
KAB

United States

#120601 Aug 7, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
There is confirmed reason it couldn't be [the fact that it isn't true and we have done enough genetic studies to know that]
There is no demonstrated reliable source recording any evidence counter to the genetic record.
I tire of your pretend play. If that is your game get yourself a sand box and a beach Barbie.
You are correct about the source not countering the genetic record.
KAB

United States

#120602 Aug 7, 2013
OOOOObama wrote:
To be honest, I don't know why we need a space program. There's nothing out there, and nobody exists besides humans and our bio-diversity here on Earth. If they DID exist, we humans still reign supreme because clearly WE would be the ones to contact THEM, and not the other way around. If "extraterrestrials" were so "advanced" then WHY haven't they contacted us yet? And if anyone had any faith at all, they would realize that NOTHING is going to come and end the world until God decides it, and even THEN the world will never be destroyed utterly -- just the non-believers. After all, "the meek shall inherit the Earth" and Jesus will reign as King. Also, why do so many planets CONTINUOUSLY get hit with meteors and asteroids while we just "happen" to get lucky, with maybe an occasional meteoroid grazing or hitting land (Which is probably a warning from GOD anyway)? If any one of you is a scientist or a "logical" atheist who believes science is everything, then try to answer these questions. This is my challenge to all of you. If you can give me an intellectually honest, serious, well-thought-out response that DOESN'T merely have to do with childish insults and name calling, I will then re-consider everything I once thought I knew to be the truth.
Read and think carefully about your statement,

"If they (extraterrestrials) DID exist, we humans still reign supreme because clearly WE would be the ones to contact THEM, and not the other way around."

Do you really think this is a logically valid statement? If so, we have a lot of work to do to help you with logical reasoning, but it's worth an attempt if necessary.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#120603 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
At least you acknowledge that doubling every generation for 4500 years is not even needed to achieve the present population.
Also, why do you insist that a new hap must replace an existing hap? Just let them coexist and not necessarily equally.
Of course, doubling is simple arithmetic and every poster here already knew that a doubling in every generation from then to now would lead to impossibly large numbers. That was never the objection.

But you forget that we have evidence of cultures before and after your supposed flood that show continuity of culture and no evidence of a dramatic decline, and it would take more than 450 years doubling every generation (25 years) to get the population back to a million starting with n=6.

Somehow you have to spread them over the world and have them magically pick up where everyone drowned left off...but the Chinese show no evidence of a cultural leap to "middle eastern" values and traditions at that time. Nor does India. Nor does Mesoamerica. Nor do the Polynesians or the Australian Aborigines or the Africans.

You also cannot get around the inbreeding problem that would make it fail. And we did learn, if you will recall, that Otzi, the 5000 year old poor fellow dead in a bog in Switzerland, was found to have genetic defects leading to heart problems, so we cannot assume that individuals around Noah's time were genetically near perfect as would be required for breeding from your tiny n=6 population.

But that is another question.

Regarding the Haps. If you look into the haplotype tree, you will see not only new variants but variants of variants of variants. The means a layering of one haplotype dispersing through a population, then one of its offspring mutating again and dispersing, then another again. etc.

In the geographic distribution if these haplotypes, we see that in some regions there must have been a total displacement of the "original" haplotype with another, and then another appearing in a daughter population and becoming widespread there, while yet a different one dispersed through another population.

Our little n=1000 example should have been enough to show you how unlikely an event that is. Not one that can be repeated iteratively over a mere 4500 years. And to remind you that this was for a tiny n=1000 population anyway, and we have examples of dispersal on a much larger scale.

Its really just amusing that you can still play this game when the science has reached a point of matching these haplotypes to both major and minor migrations, pinpointing the timings of these and finding that they match archeological evidence as well. For example the "seven daughters of Eve", poetically named but representing seven waves of European colonisation over tens of thousands of years.

Now, instead of asking questions, try reconstructing your own tree based on your own assumptions in a way you think can match the haplotype data. Lets see what assumptions you have to bend to make it work. Warning in advance: none of your literal genesis cohorts have managed to do it, so they generally just try to ignore this inconvenient evidence.

KAB

United States

#120604 Aug 7, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I have already confirmed good reasons why it could not be so re haplotypes. So have others, on this and other evidence, regardless of whether you are able to understand it or not.
I think God himself could confirm it to you and you would call God a liar! Not surprising as its obvious you are an idolator of books written by men, not a lover of God.
You have provided nothing to confirm there could not have been less deleterious gene content in the past. Now prove, not just assert, me wrong.
KAB

United States

#120605 Aug 7, 2013
Mike wrote:
If humans came from apes, why are there still apes? LMAO!!! Doesn't get any more real than that. Common sense. All evolution is, is willful ignorance.
What logic requires that if B arises from a member of a population of A, that the remaining population of A must now cease to reproduce and become extinct? Please think about it and get back to us.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120606 Aug 7, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
You're the one who's saying it's impossible for such evidence to exist, which means you must therefore be omniscient.
Whoopsie, you're a liar. Or delusional. Your pick.

False dichotomy.

I vote delusional liar.
KAB

United States

#120607 Aug 7, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, because we're all too busy dealing with your blatant dishonesty (lies of omission are still lies), refusal to use valid logic, and reliance on your own subjective interpretation of an ancient text as justification for a shifting of the burden of proof. Your delusions fool YOU, but not us. The brain is very good at convincing us that we're right, and when we're proven wrong, the brain's first recourse is to double down on the wrong rather than admit the error. Your behavior is predictable, but that still doesn't change the fact that you're wrong, you're dishonest, and you employ dishonest and logically fallacious methods to bolster your delusions.
So you don't have the proof to confirm that your statement about the 0.1% was a lie!

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120608 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
"Lie of ommission" is a label, and you know me and labels. If you want to talk specific content, I'll be pleased to oblige.

Dodge and smokescreen.

So, you implicitly admit to committing the fallacy.

I just would like all the invisible and voiceless multitude out there reading this to recognize what KAB is doing.

Hello.

Invisible multitude?

Hello.

Is this thing on.....?

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120609 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever since you thoroughly discredited yourself with multiply readily demonstrated incorrect posts, anything you post unaccompanied by confirming data is of interest only to those who don't care about their sources of info.

Who are you talking to when you do that?



Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
But you are a JW cult member. You guys follow the WatchTower (tm) and not the Bible is just a toy for the WatchTower to manipulate it's puppets with. It has no interest for the WatchTower except to to solidify its ranks behind it's supremacy.
The WT come out with any end-of-the-world predictions lately. Seems I have not heard one in weeks.
By the way, Ephesians 6:11-17 says nothing about telling lies. Do you think you can build the Watchtower's grandeur up by using an instrument of Satan (the "father of lies")?
Well, that does seem the intention.
Has your cult threatened its members with lies?
Has your cult ever advocated lying in court?
Does your cult lie to its membership per the testimony of a member of the governing body (since disfellowshiped)?
Does your cult admit who wrote their "bible" and what their agenda was (multiply attested).
I have about 7 million more. Not that you have the wisdom to heed my warning.



Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
But you are a JW cult member. You guys follow the WatchTower (tm) and not the Bible is just a toy for the WatchTower to manipulate it's puppets with. It has no interest for the WatchTower except to to solidify its ranks behind it's supremacy.
The WT come out with any end-of-the-world predictions lately. Seems I have not heard one in weeks.
By the way, Ephesians 6:11-17 says nothing about telling lies. Do you think you can build the Watchtower's grandeur up by using an instrument of Satan (the "father of lies")?
Well, that does seem the intention.
Has your cult threatened its members with lies?
Has your cult ever advocated lying in court?
Does your cult lie to its membership per the testimony of a member of the governing body (since disfellowshiped)?
Does your cult admit who wrote their "bible" and what their agenda was (multiply attested).
I have about 7 million more. Not that you have the wisdom to heed my warning.



Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
But you are a JW cult member. You guys follow the WatchTower (tm) and not the Bible is just a toy for the WatchTower to manipulate it's puppets with. It has no interest for the WatchTower except to to solidify its ranks behind it's supremacy.
The WT come out with any end-of-the-world predictions lately. Seems I have not heard one in weeks.
By the way, Ephesians 6:11-17 says nothing about telling lies. Do you think you can build the Watchtower's grandeur up by using an instrument of Satan (the "father of lies")?
Well, that does seem the intention.
Has your cult threatened its members with lies?
Has your cult ever advocated lying in court?
Does your cult lie to its membership per the testimony of a member of the governing body (since disfellowshiped)?
Does your cult admit who wrote their "bible" and what their agenda was (multiply attested).
I have about 7 million more. Not that you have the wisdom to heed my warning.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120610 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever since you thoroughly discredited yourself with multiply readily demonstrated incorrect posts, anything you post unaccompanied by confirming data is of interest only to those who don't care about their sources of info.

Anybody ever remember KAB discrediting me on anything more significant than a spelling error?

Oh, and I would like to invite ALL the lurkers (YOU KNOW YOUR NOT OUT THERE) to respond as well.

Not only have I demonstrated your cult to be a lying sham, but I have done so with demonstrated reliable sources.



----

If Jesus was resurrected as an invisible spirit, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Jesus say he was going to raise his physical body from the dead (John 2:19-22)?


If Jesus, the man, ceased to exist at his death and was raised from the dead as Michael the Archangel, why did Michael deceive the apostles into believing that they were witnessing Jesus in a resurrected physical body (Luke 24:39)?


If Jesus is now living in heaven as an invisible spirit creature, like the Watchtower teaches, why did Paul write many years after the ascension of Christ that he is dwelling in heaven in a physical body (Colossians 2:9)? Note: The Greek word, somatikos, means physical, tangible body.


If Jesus is now Michael the Archangel, why does 1 Timothy 2:5 say that the mediator between God and men is the man, Christ Jesus, and not the spirit, Michael the Archangel?


Can you show me a verse in the bible that clearly says Jesus is the Archangel Michael? How can Jesus be Michael since Hebrews chapter 1 stresses the superiority of Jesus over the angels and that all the angels worship him? Why would Jehovah command that the entire angelic realm worship another angel? Note: The Watchtower bible changes the word worship, in Hebrews 1:6, to “do obeisance to”. However, see section below on the New World Translation.


The Watchtower Society

Since the Watchtower was wrong in the past about many of its teachings and the light continues to get brighter (Proverbs 4:18), how do you know that the current teachings are correct and won’t change?


Why did the Watchtower magazine (Nov 15, 1981, p. 21) say to “come to Jehovah’s organization for salvation” when Jesus never directed us to an organization for salvation but to him?


When you joined the Jehovah’s Witnesses, did you read information for and against the Watchtower so you could make an educated and well rounded decision based on both points of view?


Has anyone become a Jehovah’s Witness after reading the bible alone without the aid of Watchtower material?


If I were to join the Jehovah’s Witnesses, would it be okay for me to do research into the Watchtower’s past by reading non-Watchtower material?


Since the Watchtower was in error many times in the past, are you obligated to believe that all the current teachings are God’s truth?


False Prophecies

If Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1914, like the Watchtower teaches, why was the Watchtower teaching in 1929 that Jesus’ invisible presence began in 1874? How did they finally figure out that that teaching was false? Reference: Prophecy, 1929, p. 65.


Since the Watchtower claims to be God’s prophet (The Watchtower, April 1, 1972, p. 197) and have falsely predicted Armageddon to occur in 1914, 1918, 1925 and 1975, do you think they meet the criteria of Deuteronomy 18:20-22?


Can you show me in the bible where it says to give false prophets a second or third chance to get it right?


If the Watchtower really is Jehovah’s prophet, like they claim, can you show me anything they predicted that came to pass?


http://www.towertotruth.net/Articles/30_quest...

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120611 Aug 7, 2013
pt. 2

The New World Translation

Why did Hebrews 1:6 in the 1970 version of the New World Translation say,“Let all God’s angels worship him” and not “do obeisance to him” like the new versions say?


Why does the New World Translation insert the word “other” four times into Colossians chapter 1 when it isn’t in the Greek manuscripts at all? Doesn’t this change the meaning of the text?


Why does the New World Translation place the comma in Luke 23:43 in a different location than it does every other time when Jesus says,“Truly I tell you”?


Can you show me a list of Greek scholars who approve of the New World Translation’s New Testament translation?


Can you show me a list of the people who were on the New World Translation Committee along with their credentials in the ancient Biblical languages?


The 144,000

If the Watchtower’s teaching that the 144,000 were filled in 1935 is correct, can you explain how Jesus, his apostles and their immediate followers couldn’t get 144,000 converts in 1800 years, but the Watchtower got 6 million converts in 125 years?


Why does the Watchtower teach that only 144,000 people are born-again when 1 John 5:1 says that everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God?


Why is there only one judgment period from God to test the endurance and worthiness of the 144,000 before they are guaranteed of eternal life, but the other sheep have to endure through this life, the 1000 year millennium plus pass an unknown final test before they are counted worthy of eternal life? Why is salvation so much easier for the 144,000?


If Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not part of the 144,000 with a heavenly hope, why does Jesus say in Matthew 8:11 that they will be in the kingdom of heaven?



Identity of Jesus

According to Jesus in John 17:3, how many true Gods are there? Would you say that whatever is not true is false? Doesn’t the New World Translation call Jesus “a god” in John 1:1? Since there is only one true God and all others must be false, is Jesus a true God or a false god?


If Jesus was God’s Master Worker in creation, why does Jehovah say, in Isaiah 44:24, that He created all things by Himself?


If Jesus is a created being, why does he get twice as much worship, in Revelation 5:12, as Jehovah gets in Revelation 4:11?


If Jehovah created Jesus, why does John 1:3 say that all things came into existence through Jesus and apart from him not even one thing was made? Doesn’t this place Jesus outside the realm of created things?

Miscellaneous

If everlasting life comes by taking in knowledge (John 17:3), how long do I have to study with the Jehovah’s Witnesses to be assured that I have enough knowledge to live forever? 1 year? 5 years?

If we pay for our personal sins when we die, like the Watchtower teaches, how will the great crowd who survive Armageddon pay for their sins since they will never die but go right on living into the millennium?



All in spirited fun. Actually I could answer a few of these for you, but I would rather you speak for yourself.[snicker]

I crack me up

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120612 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
It's already been proven.

I love the audacity of bold, direct, flagrant, bald-faced, lying.
KAB

United States

#120613 Aug 7, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01...
(2nd page, 3rd paragraph):
"Most researchers agree that the population growth during the Paleolithic was very slow. Despite difficulty in estimating Paleolithic and Neolithic population size, there have been a number of reasonable reconstructions. Coale suggests an average growht rate of .015 people per thousand per year for 990,000 years. He estimates that there were 8,000,000 people living in 8,000 B.C., which grew from a THEORETICAL (emphasis mine) two-person population in 1,000,000 B.P. Thsi represents a rate of population growth that is so low that it can be considered zero."
Chimney's reference was to a present large population expected fundamental rate of 0.1% growth per generation.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120614 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
That's what can happen when one goes beyond what the scriptures confirm. It probably also helps account for why you don't tend to see such things anymore (lessons learned).

It took over 100 years for the JW to learn this lesson.

False prophecy is in the blood of mind warping religious cults.

It is closely related to lying which the Watchtower cult continues to corner the market in.

They do occasionally tell the truth, however. On page 25 of the foreword of the New World Translation (1950) of the bible, what does the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society say is the pronunciation of YHWH is the most correct?

Dare you go against your own cult masters?



--------

I enjoy this stuff. Can anyone tell.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120615 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
It's Wednesday here, no doubt about it.


Ever since you thoroughly discredited yourself with multiply readily demonstrated incorrect posts, anything you post unaccompanied by confirming data is of interest only to those who don't care about their sources of info.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120616 Aug 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I can't think of a thing in the sense in which you seem to intend it.

THINK?

"Am I going MAD, or did the word "think" escape your keyboard? You were not hired for your brains," ....[Vizzini - paraphrase]

Anyhoot, no surprise you can't think. You have to give up your brain and your testicles when you join the Watchtower cult. Or in your case your ovaries.

If you had either you might be able to respond to my points.


Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
There is nothing honest in anything you say.
I notice you avoid all reference to the Watchtower cult since I gave you a theological spanking some time ago. Your silence is nice confirmation that you cannot support your beliefs and that you live in fear that I can crumble your whole world with nothing more than facts.
All Watchtower cult members are like you. Spineless. Ignorant. Fearful.
What do you fear the most, the Watchtower, Yahweh, Satan, death.... or this question?

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120617 Aug 7, 2013
Maybe I am being to harsh.

You want to take a shot?


There is nothing honest in anything you say.
I notice you avoid all reference to the Watchtower cult since I gave you a theological spanking some time ago. Your silence is nice confirmation that you cannot support your beliefs and that you live in fear that I can crumble your whole world with nothing more than facts.
All Watchtower cult members are like you. Spineless. Ignorant. Fearful.
What do you fear the most, the Watchtower, Yahweh, Satan, death.... or this question?
KAB

United States

#120618 Aug 7, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I hope you can convince KAB that incredulity is worthless as a logical reasoning position.
Also, I've gone back and checked and found SEVERAL mentions of 0.1% per generation AVERAGE human population growth rate OVER LONG PERIODS OF HISTORICAL TIME. If you know/think otherwise you're welcome to provide the confirming data. I don't think that's going to happen, and we both know why.
"Until the development of agriculture around the 11th millennium BC, it is estimated that the world population stabilized at about three million people,[22] who subsisted through hunting and foraging – a lifestyle that by its nature ensured a low population density. The total world population probably never exceeded 15 million inhabitants before the invention of agriculture.[23] By contrast, it is estimated that around 50–60 million people lived in the combined eastern and western Roman Empire in the 4th century AD.[24]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population...
Calculate your own:
http://www.metamorphosisalpha.com/ias/populat...
Though you can see the .1% per year is an average, the growth rate (Positive ROC) has been increasing:
http://www.jacquesvallee.net/bookdocs/long-te...
You probably didn't notice that the 0.1%/yr you acknowledge equates to about 2% per generation, belying Chimney's assertion.

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