It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 143948 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#119219 Jul 6, 2013
Charles Idemi wrote:
<quoted text> Sheer ignorance.
Then present it, not just some "it's in the bible" assertions, actual evidence. You have probably never even tried to look for the evidence, so here's your chance to prove you are not completely clueless.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119220 Jul 7, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>How can that be when no such flood ever occurred.
If such a hypothetical event were to have occurred, there isn't enough water in the oceans to accomplish the job as described in the Bible, so those waters could not primarily be in the oceans.
So you lose times two.
You must not be allowing for significant changes in Earth's surface contours likely occurring in conjunction with the global flood.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119221 Jul 7, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I could accept faith, but not the blind stupidity you possess and consider to be faith.
This is a conclusion based on data.
You're entitled to your opinion.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119222 Jul 7, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Bottlenecks line up 4,500 years ago.
Which bottlenecks did I assert line up 4500 years ago?
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119223 Jul 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
There isn't enough water in the oceans. Not much on math, are you?
You must be assuming Earth's surface contours haven't changed much from before to after the global flood.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119224 Jul 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Nah. You're the one who takes things on faith. Take, for example, your mythical flood. You insist it could have happened even though you have admitted you have no proof. THAT is faith.
The rest of us are content to use evidence and logic.
Bible defined faith is based on evidence and logic (Heb. 11:1).
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119225 Jul 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll let our good friend, John D. Morris, answer that for you:
he length of the days of Genesis 1 has been much debated. Are the days of Genesis 1 regular solar days, referring to the rotation of the earth on its axis, or could each day be a long, indefinite period of time, equivalent in total to the vast time spans of geology? Such an interpretation would give solace to Christians who try to harmonize long ages with Genesis.
It is true that the Hebrew word yom,translated "day," can have a variety of meanings. By far its most common is a literal day, but it can mean "age." The question is, what does it mean here? As always for a word with multiple possible meanings, we must let the Scriptural context take precedence in discerning its meaning for a particular usage.
Interestingly, the very first time the word is used, in Genesis 1:5, it is strictly defined as the light portion of a light/dark cycle as the earth rotated underneath a directional light source, producing day and night. It is also true that whenever "day" is modified by a number, like second day or six days, it can only mean a true solar day. There are no exceptions in Hebrew. Any uncertainty is resolved in the Ten Commandments as God commands us to work six days and rest one day just as He worked on the six creation days and rested on day seven (Exodus 20:11).
Now consider that each day in Genesis is modified by the term "evening and morning," both commonly used words in the Old Testament. Can they be referring to indefinite periods of time? Standard Bible study tools define the Hebrew word for "evening" (ereb) as meaning simply evening or night. It is derived from expressions connoting "the setting of the sun or sunset," and associated with evening sacrificial meal and rituals. Often mentioned is the "evening sacrifice" or "returning at evening." Likewise the word for "morning" (bqer) literally means morning or dawn, the breaking through of daylight, and reference is made to "rising early in the morning" or keeping the fire burning until the morning. There is little possibility of translating the word pair as "the end of an age" and/or "the beginning of an age."
The job of both Bible student and expositor is to carefully determine what the Author of Scripture is communicating to the reader. We dare not impose on the straightforward Word of God our own bias. We must stand in submission to Him and His words. Remember, God is all wise and wants to reveal truth to us, things we might not know otherwise. He can also write clearly. He will help us understand even difficult passages if we value His thoughts above our own.
http://www.icr.org/article/3228/
John D. Morris is entitled to his opinion. Unfortunately, his opinion didn't address the consequence of evening being mentioned before morning on the first day, and thus is rendered from an incomplete consideration of the facts.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119226 Jul 7, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
No. Not faith. Confidence based on the evidence. Faith is what you use as an excuse for believing something despite a lack of evidence and/or in spite of contradictory evidence.
EXAMPLE: God exists. You believe this on faith, despite there being no evidence of such a thing (hell, you can't even define what it is to be able to demonstrate its existence).
You're entitled to your opinion. Based on the evidence, I am confident in what I believe.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119227 Jul 7, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
That sound like a reasonable number, though I have not done the math nor do I think such math is likely very valid.
So directly observed mutation rate data doesn't support that everytning else has occurred in much less than 2 billion years and 5 trillion generations.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119228 Jul 7, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Try taking out the spaces. They don't belong.
Alternatively, try this: http://tinyurl.com/kogw5uh
That doesn't work either.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119229 Jul 7, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Context, jackass. Context.
The context confirms that "day" is used to designate various intervals of time, doesn't it?
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119230 Jul 7, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Yes.
To all of the above.
How does calling the light "day" equate to 24 hours?
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119231 Jul 7, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Where are you getting 24 hours out of my posts. I left that bone out on purpose because I know that a dog can't resist chewing on bones.
If you acknowledge the Genesis 1 verses don't have to refer to 24 hour periods, I have no disagreement with you.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119232 Jul 7, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>So you really can't trust the literal meaning of anything written in the Bible. We have told you so all along. Thank you for confirming this.
Who that Dan trusts wants to highlight the logical fallacy here?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#119233 Jul 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You must not be allowing for significant changes in Earth's surface contours likely occurring in conjunction with the global flood.

We have tracked the changes in the earths contours for the last billion years. Nothing unusual happened during the time of the mythical flood.

Of course, you already know that. But as your cult requires you to be stupid....


“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#119234 Jul 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You're entitled to your opinion.

He did not render an opinion, but rather the indication of the data.

To whit: "This is a conclusion based on data."


You have enough information to know your cults mandated position is untenable.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#119235 Jul 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Which bottlenecks did I assert line up 4500 years ago?

None. That is the point.

You lose again.

Be not afraid of stupidity: some are born stupid, some achieve stupidity and some have stupidity thrust upon them.(with appologies to Wm. Shakespeare)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#119236 Jul 7, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You must be assuming Earth's surface contours haven't changed much from before to after the global flood.

No global changes in the earth contours can be specifically dated to 4,500 years ago. Not counting pyramid construction, of course.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119237 Jul 7, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't be daft KAB, this refutes nothing I said.
For starters, we are not talking about simply generating a population of 100,000 say out of a single pair, and yes the calcs for that are simple.
We are talking about the unmixed female line disseminating throughout a more or less constant 100,000 in every generation. That is a more difficult problem.
It is not a simple exponential calc but one that relies on the far lower chance of other females reproducing only male offspring and their own mitochondrial line thus stopping. So assuming a constant population, with 2 live offspring per female, one in 4 females will lose mitochondrial representation in the next generation (by having 2 boys). 12,500 women would "lose out" in that generation.
In the following generation, its one in four of the remaining again but this will include the sample. 37,500/4 will lose out.
And so on.
How many generations until you are left with just ONE Mitochonrial line from the original 50,000 women? About 1000 years. But its not that simple.
New haplotypes have to enter the population as fast as they are being removed, or you would end up with only one haplotype world wide, whereas we observe the opposite. New haplotypes are very likely to be removed before they can disseminate anyway, jsut by chance. Periods of population fall and rise will change the rate of dissemination. And so on.
When scientists calculate Y-Adam and Mito Eve, they are factoring all this in as much as possible.
Furthermore haplotypes form nested hierarchies too. So its not a single event fixing, its one, then another, then another etc.
That is how scientists derive the estimate of 200,000 years or so for the mitochondrial Eve pattern based on the haplotypes we find in the world (DATA!)and there is NO WAY to do that in 5000 years.
For Y chromo Adam, the picture is similar in principle.
The number they get is around 200,000 years for mito Eve. Frankly, I would respect their peer reviewed, analysed, argued, logically justified calculations over yours KAB. Even of they were out by a whole order of magnitude which is highly unlikely, 20,000 years would still be far too long ago for your Flood scenario.
You would be better served citing an expert reference to make your case including providing actual data. Your reasoning may or may not be valid/applicable in all its parts, but without more specifics and confirming data it's just your dataless reasoning.
KAB

Phoenix, AZ

#119238 Jul 7, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
What is most telling in your article is how much they emphsise the unusual genetic uniformity of the cheetah compared to most other species owing to this rare recent bottleneck. I am not sure how many times you have to be told this for it to sink in but ALL the animals would show a bottleneck like the cheetah's - actually a more exreme one - if they were global flood survivors on the Ark.
Why not simply choose an animal and provide data confirming it didn't have a bottleneck 4500 years ago?

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