It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 161438 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#113926 Apr 13, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I notice you didn't use the scriptures to confirm your assertions, such as clearly, only, and without any other possible understanding, menitoning only the island city.
BTW, keep in mind that what's amazing is in the specific details, not exactly "red car" and "rainy day" calibre.
What specific details? Tyre is still there, it was never scraped into the sea. Do you really want the specific verses quoted to you to show how terrible this prediction was?
KAB

Lexington, NC

#113927 Apr 13, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
And yes, Tyre was supposed to be never occupied again. You can read this treatment of the subject:
http://www.theskepticalreview.com/tsrmag/992t...
The king of Tyre who the prophesy was aimed at was not destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. He gave Tyre quite a bit of trouble but he fell short of the prophecy.
Apologists try to shit the prediction to Alexander the great, but as I said, that was 300 years after the fact and that someone finally defeated Tyre after a period of 300 years of warfare back and forth across the region is no great prophesy at all.
Your reference acknowledges that the prophecy states that many nations would give Tyre trouble, and that many nations did. Everyone is entitiled to his own apologetics, but "multiple nations" partnering together is not the same thing as a single empire which includes multiple ethnicities, an equivalence your reference tried to draw. There are additional difficulties with your reference, but this is sufficient to undermine its credibility.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#113928 Apr 13, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reference acknowledges that the prophecy states that many nations would give Tyre trouble, and that many nations did. Everyone is entitiled to his own apologetics, but "multiple nations" partnering together is not the same thing as a single empire which includes multiple ethnicities, an equivalence your reference tried to draw. There are additional difficulties with your reference, but this is sufficient to undermine its credibility.
The biggest problem for the Tyre prophesy is that the king of Tyre was not defeated and routed totally by Nebuchadnezzar. Tyre was defeated three hundred years later by Alexander the Great. Wrong ruler, wrong time, totally unrelated to the prophesy.

“It's over 9000!”

Level 1

Since: Mar 09

somewhere in the desert

#113929 Apr 13, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I am sure parts of it were horribly repetitive, as these arguments do have ways of going around in circles...
I know a few times I thought if I saw MM in a ALL CAPS RAGE yell "crack its outta here" one more time i was going to either fling my computer across the room or fly from Japan to NC and beat him with my computer. Such nonsense. Made quite a few laugh with the oak trees logic :) Looking forward to (hopefully) helping the debate along even if I am a lowly airplane mechanic XD

“It's over 9000!”

Level 1

Since: Mar 09

somewhere in the desert

#113930 Apr 13, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I have. That is how I proved that JWs are liars, distorters, spinners, murders, adulterers and bearers of false witness.
Just keep tipping your hand. It's working nicely so far. However, I'm sure we are reaching the point of diminishing returns with regard to any objective observers. Except where I think there's something new and meaningful likely to be gained, you won't be getting responses. You have shown clearly that your assertions are consistently incorrect, so at this point there's generally nothing compelling a response no matter what you assert.
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Another lie. You are on a roll again. You JWs have no morals.
You need to read through the list again. These were INTENDED as PROPHECIES when they were written. I know the JW cult has been trying to spin them for decades and have give up shooting themselves in this particular foot.
How do you feel about the Watchtower going back and editing old versions of their literature to take out damaging text? Don't you think that is dishonest?
How do you feel about settling lawsuits for millions of dollars to keep from having to deal with publicity in their wrongful death suits and child molestation cases?
If you were the only watchtower cultist I knew, what would my opinion about the morals of watchtower cultists be?
Rem: I consider lying to be immoral.
Hey Dogen, I did want to get your opinion of this page I came across when I googled "bible scholars and the NWT" after following alot of your conversation with KAB on the subject. What were your thoughts about the scholar quotes at the top of the page? It has a nice list of verses and how they were changed and why.
(The design of the webpage itself sucks so beware lol)
Thanks for taking a look!
LowellGuy

Salem, MA

#113931 Apr 13, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You have not confirmed that the worldwide flood timeframe sediment in the Northern Canada global scale flood gauge could not be from a worldwide flood. Thus, it constitutes evidence for a worldwide flood.
Just because it isn't disqualified doesn't make it qualified.

I haven't been proven to have a lifespan of more than 200 years, so that is evidence that my lifespan is more than 200 years.

What's wrong with that logic is what's wrong with your logic.

If you need to invent your own version of logic to make your religion and reality agree, you have conceded that your religion does not agree with reality.

Your shitty logic, your problem.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113932 Apr 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
The NWT explanation of the use of brackets is clearly given in, of all places, the explanatory material in the volume. Go figure! Why didn't you mention that?

I DID mention that. Why didn't you READ that? Because your cult does not allow you to think for yourself or to truly understand! Go figure!

The NWT explanation of the use of brackets is clearly given in, of all places, the explanatory material in the volume.

Here it is again. Lets see if you can catch it this time. I won't hold my breath.



Dogen wrote:
More for KAB to run from:
"The Watchtower Society claims that certain words are inserted with [brackets] within
the New World Translation to make for smoother reading in English. They also claim
these "inserted words" do not change the meaning of the original text. "
RE: New World Translation.Colossians 1:16,17
The verses here from Colossians
are a striking example of the
Watchtower Society's intentional
alteration of the actual Greek
Scriptures. The word [other] was
inserted four times to make it
appear that Jesus was created
first by Jehovah, and then Jesus
was used by Jehovah to create all
other things in the universe. This
is of course to support their
unorthodox teachings that Jesus
was merely a created being and
not God."
"Interestingly, within the Watchtower Society's own
publication (The Kingdom Interlinear Translation
of the Greek Scriptures) the word "other" does not
appear within the actual Greek translation of
Colossians 1:16 and 17."
"How can the Society acknowledge the original Greek text, yet insert a word that clearly
does not belong? The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (the
above publication that all Jehovah's Witnesses should spend more time reading)
includes an appendix for the reader to understand why the Society interprets the
Scriptures the way they do. However, the Society's translation of these particular verses
from Colossians do not contain an explanation of the insertion [other]. The reader is
simply cross-referenced to the verses at Luke 11:41,42, where they will also see the
word [other] erroneously inserted with no explanation as to why?"
http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com/neww ...

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113933 Apr 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You have not confirmed that the worldwide flood timeframe sediment in the Northern Canada global scale flood gauge could not be from a worldwide flood. Thus, it constitutes evidence for a worldwide flood.

You have not confirmed that the worldwide flood NOR time frame are even possible. The global scale flood gauge exists only in the mind of one warped individual. Thus you have no evidence of a global flood. Further you cannot answer the following questions. I wonder why that is?!


1. Where did the water come from?

2. Where did the water go?

3. How did civilizations continue through this period, unaffected?

4. How did fragile items survive?

5. Why is there not water damage inside of all older structures (great pyramid)?

6. How did water soluble "paint's" used in cave and cliff paintings manage to survive?

7. Why is there absolutely no tangible evidence of a global flood to be found?

8. Why are there no modern fish fossils on dry land?

9. How did animals get from their homes to the Ark?

10. How did animals get from the ark back to their homes?


That should give you a start.

Where do you want to cherry pick? Or will you just evade the entire issue (again).

Dishonest much?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113934 Apr 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
If Jesus quoted the Hebrew scriptures repeatedly without actually quoting them (i.e., substituted "Lord" for "YHWH" for example), then you have a point. What would be the chances of that happening?

PUT THE GOAL POSTS,.......BACK!

Here again you are trying to use deception, deceit, smoke and mirrors while you run away from the issues.


http://www.soundwitness.org/jw/a_glaring_exam...

IFF the link was ONLY talking about Jesus quotes of OT scripture then you have a point. What would be the chances of that happening?

Here is another example of where your dishonesty, lack of knowledge and programming will not allow you to actually address issues.

So craven.

So cowardly.

So sad.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113935 Apr 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I notice you didn't use the scriptures to confirm your assertions, such as clearly, only, and without any other possible understanding, menitoning only the island city.
BTW, keep in mind that what's amazing is in the specific details, not exactly "red car" and "rainy day" calibre.

It is funny to watch you pretend to answer questions that you can not actually answer. SZ just ripped you a new one and you just gloss over it and pretend it did not happen.

and I notice you didn't use the scriptures to confirm your assertions.



Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
The error is on your part. The Tyre prophesy always referred to the island city. Not the smaller less important land based city.
Conflating the two like the authors of that article have is the same as conflating Newark, New Jersey for New York, New York.
Plus Alexander the Great was the wrong conqueror. He was about 300 years too late. The conqueror who never defeated Tyre, and yet was supposed to was Nebuchadnezzar. Earlier Chimney1 used the example of predicting that you would see a red car on a rainy day. Trying to stretch out Zeke's prediction that long in a war torn area is on the same order as Chimney1's prediction. The fact that it came true is not surprising at all.
So the city of Tyre is still alive and healthy. The hamlet that was scrapped was never the city of the prophecy. That is a doub

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113936 Apr 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Your reference acknowledges that the prophecy states that many nations would give Tyre trouble, and that many nations did. Everyone is entitiled to his own apologetics, but "multiple nations" partnering together is not the same thing as a single empire which includes multiple ethnicities, an equivalence your reference tried to draw. There are additional difficulties with your reference, but this is sufficient to undermine its credibility.

Translation: Blah, blah, blah, blah, I can't answer, blah, blah, blah, blah [I wonder how long I have to doubletalk so they don't notice I am not saying anything], blah, blah blah blah blah.....

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113937 Apr 14, 2013
air force grl wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Dogen, I did want to get your opinion of this page I came across when I googled "bible scholars and the NWT" after following alot of your conversation with KAB on the subject. What were your thoughts about the scholar quotes at the top of the page? It has a nice list of verses and how they were changed and why.
(The design of the webpage itself sucks so beware lol)
Thanks for taking a look!

Link please?

p.s. I like "lowly" airplane mechanics. Knowing they know their job lets me fly with confidence!

“It's over 9000!”

Level 1

Since: Mar 09

somewhere in the desert

#113938 Apr 14, 2013
Ah snot I forgot to paste the link... my bad!

http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#113939 Apr 14, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You have not confirmed that the worldwide flood timeframe sediment in the Northern Canada global scale flood gauge could not be from a worldwide flood. Thus, it constitutes evidence for a worldwide flood.
Supporting evidence does not work that way.

A theory, such as "WW Flood in the last 10,000 years", needs only ONE instance of verified falsification, to be fully falsified. If ONE thing shows it could NOT have happened, then it does not matter how many other things say it COULD have happened.

This is true of all theories.

Even if your Canadian evidence was consistent with a WW Flood, it would not prove it because there are other explanations for that evidence. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that shows there CANNOT have been a WW Flood.

So that's it. WW Flood is ruled out.

Scientific theories suffer from this asymmetry always. No amount of evidence can prove them, only support them, but ONE verified piece of evidence can falsify them. That includes the theory of evolution too BTW.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#113940 Apr 14, 2013
air force grl wrote:
Ah snot I forgot to paste the link... my bad!
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm
Blocked in Dubai.

Must be sinister stuff!

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#113941 Apr 14, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because it isn't disqualified doesn't make it qualified.
I haven't been proven to have a lifespan of more than 200 years, so that is evidence that my lifespan is more than 200 years.
What's wrong with that logic is what's wrong with your logic.
If you need to invent your own version of logic to make your religion and reality agree, you have conceded that your religion does not agree with reality.
Your shitty logic, your problem.
But now you have revealed your true identity, I strongly suspect 200 years is just a short nap to you. LG...eureka. LG.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113942 Apr 14, 2013
air force grl wrote:
Ah snot I forgot to paste the link... my bad!
http://www.bible.ca/Jw-NWT.htm

Nothing surprising here. The thing is the watchtower cult members have been so indoctrinated with circular logic that they would dispute everything on the page. At least they would if they were allowed to read it.

This is a beautiful and telling passage:
"1910 "If the 6 volumes of 'Scripture Studies' are practically the Bible topically arranged, with Bible proof-texts given, we might not improperly name the volumes-'The Bible' in an arranged form. That is to say, they are not merely comments on the Bible, but they are practically the Bible itself...Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible itself, but we see also that if anyone lays the 'Scripture Studies'... after he has read them for 10 years-if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone...out experience shows that within 2 years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he has merely read the 'S.S.' with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years." (Watchtower, Sept 15, 1910) "

“It's over 9000!”

Level 1

Since: Mar 09

somewhere in the desert

#113943 Apr 14, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Nothing surprising here. The thing is the watchtower cult members have been so indoctrinated with circular logic that they would dispute everything on the page. At least they would if they were allowed to read it.
This is a beautiful and telling passage:
"1910 "If the 6 volumes of 'Scripture Studies' are practically the Bible topically arranged, with Bible proof-texts given, we might not improperly name the volumes-'The Bible' in an arranged form. That is to say, they are not merely comments on the Bible, but they are practically the Bible itself...Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible itself, but we see also that if anyone lays the 'Scripture Studies'... after he has read them for 10 years-if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone...out experience shows that within 2 years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he has merely read the 'S.S.' with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years." (Watchtower, Sept 15, 1910) "
It is very silly. My old boss was a JW but he was a really decent guy regardless XD. He must have been the worst JW ever cuz even he thought those watchtower tracts were crap. He saw me reading one at work one day and couldn't fathom how i could stand reading it. actually took it from me and threw it away!
But that is pretty funny above.
"Yeah yeah we are based on the bible. No no no...don't actually read the bible but just read our commentary on it."
Like they knew people would see they were full of it. Hmmmmmm.....
KAB

Wilson, NC

#113944 Apr 14, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
You have no data refuting the data.
You are empty.
You are nothing and have nothing.
Testing for future nonexistence?
Note the acknowledgement in the following reference that time determination to the bottom of the ice core is based on a model, not direct observation/measurement.

ftp://ftp.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/da ta/paleo/icecore/antarctica/ep ica_domec/edc3-timescale.txt

"This timescale is based on a snow accumulation / ice flow model, which is further tuned with independent age markers."
KAB

Wilson, NC

#113945 Apr 14, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
You could have used better language. Rainy days and red cars are both fairly common. And the odds of a city being defeated in the Middle East over a period of 300 years in the time before Christ approaches 100%.
What would be difficult to do would be to find a city that was not defeated.
The prophesy applied to the king at that time and Nebuchadnezzar. The prophesy did not come true at that time. So what if it was finally defeated 300 years later. That is a grossly failed prophesy.
It's not a failed prophecy if you, not the prophecy, impose the time constraint.

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