It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ... Full Story

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#113815 Apr 10, 2013
Allow me to summarize.
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
theological train wreck.
Water is wet.
KAB

United States

#113816 Apr 10, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No KAB. Every faith has its scripture denouncing other faiths as false paths, with the possible exception of good old Buddhism.
Alluding to my point - you have no empirical DATA to support your faith or your faiths contention that the others are wrong. All you have is prediction that some guy will come along pretending to be God And some prediction that a great city/empire will be brought low.
If I tell you "Lo and Behold, you will see a Red Car on a Rainy Day", am I a great prophet?
The description of the man posing as God could fit anyone from Louis 14th to Stalin to the Korean Kims to Genghis Khan to Augustus, Nero, and Caligula. Maybe even the Beatles.
As for the destruction of Babylon, that could mean just about anything. I think by the time of writing, men had enough historical experience to see apparently fabulous and invincible cities and empires come crashing down. Its another Red Car Prophesy (a term I just made up) that can be used by anyone to apply to anything and anywhere at any time.
Science on the other hand makes falsifiable predictions, not vague ones of the: "this can apply to anything anywhere anytime and never be proven wrong by any evidence" kind.
And that is why new empirical evidence enables scientists to come to agreement over previous points of contention. That is why scientific knowledge can grow while religious dogma merely gnaws at its own intestines endlessly.
A great prophet must first be a demonstrated reliable source. You are not.

A comprehensive knowledge of the Bible would pare down your "man posing as God" and "Babylon" possibilities lists considerably.

The Bible is falsifiable on many fronts. All you need is one confirmed error. Please provide a specific candidate for consideration/analysis/scrutin y. If it can stand the heat, you'll have a winner.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#113817 Apr 10, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
A great prophet must first be a demonstrated reliable source. You are not.
A comprehensive knowledge of the Bible would pare down your "man posing as God" and "Babylon" possibilities lists considerably.
The Bible is falsifiable on many fronts. All you need is one confirmed error. Please provide a specific candidate for consideration/analysis/scrutin y. If it can stand the heat, you'll have a winner.
So who was a "reliable prophet" in the Old Testament?

Surely not Ezekiel. Zeke blew the Tyre prophesy big time. The attempt to shift the goal posts to the invasion and defeat of Tyre hundreds of years after the fact is no more amazing than Chimney1's prediction that you would see a red car on a rainy day. The hard part would be to find a city that had not been defeated in hundreds of years in that part of the world. Tyre was also supposed to be defeated so badly that it would be never inhabited again and that it would be a bare rock where fisherman spread their nets to dry.

You better not tell that to the inhabitants of Tyre today:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113818 Apr 10, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
A great prophet must first be a demonstrated reliable source. You are not.
You mean like the reliable source of the WatchTower cult. You want to review their failed prophecies?

I didn't think so, Mr. Chickenfeces.

Or how about the NWT which you have proven inept and incompetent at defending?

Ah,... not up for it, eh?

I am not surprised.


KAB wrote:
<quoted text> A comprehensive knowledge of the Bible would pare down your "man posing as God" and "Babylon" possibilities lists considerably.
A comprehensive knowledge of the Bible also makes the JW cult followers look like morons.




KAB wrote:
<quoted text> The Bible is falsifiable on many fronts. All you need is one confirmed error. Please provide a specific candidate for consideration/analysis/scrutin y. If it can stand the heat, you'll have a winner.
So we have already won. We have pointed out many errors and you have been reduced to a babbling fool in trying to defend it. Sloshing mud around in a bucket is not a defense. Demonstrating pi=3 would be better. But what I rEALLy want to see is you explain how the Egyptians never even noticed the flood and continued building pyramids and expanding their civilization.

Keep cowering. I don't expect an answer because you can never seem to provide any.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113819 Apr 10, 2013
FAILED Jehovah Witness Prophecies Part 1

1877-1888

1877 'The End Of This World; that is the end of the gospel and the beginning of the millennial age is nearer than most men suppose; indeed we have already entered the transition period, which is to be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation Dan. 12:3." (N.H. Barbour and C.T. Russell, Three Worlds, and the Harvest of This World, p. 17).

1879 "Christ came in the character of a Bridegroom in 1874.... at the beginning of the Gospel harvest." (Watchtower, Oct 1879, p. 4)

1880 "We need not here repeat the evidences that the "seventh trump" began its sounding A.D., 1840, and will continue until the end of the time of trouble, and the end of "The times of the Gentiles," A.D., 1914, and that it is the trouble of this "Great day," which is here symbolically called the voice of the Archangel when he begins the deliverance of fleshly Israel. "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince (Archangel) which standeth for the children of thy people and there shall be a time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation." Dan. xii. 1. Nor will we here, again present the conclusive Bible proof that our Lord came for his Bride in 1874, and has an unseen work as Reaper of the first-fruits of this Gospel Age.(Zion's Watchtower November, 1880 p. 1)

1886 "The outlook at the opening of the New Year has some very encouraging features. The outward evidences are that the marshaling of the hosts for the battle of the great day of God Almighty, is in progress while the skirmishing is commencing.… The time is come for Messiah to take the dominion of earth and to overthrow the oppressors and corrupters of the earth,(Rev. 19:15 and 11:17, 18) preparatory to the establishment of everlasting peace upon the only firm foundation of righteousness and truth." (Zion's Watchtower, January, 1886;Watchtower reprints I, p. 817)

1888 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions." (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113820 Apr 10, 2013
FAILED Jehovah Witness Prophecies Part 2
1889 -

1889 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')

1889 "Here we furnish the evidence that from the creation of Adam to (but not including) A.D. 1873 was six thousand years. And though the Bible contains no direct statement that the seventh thousand will be the epoch of Christ's reign, the great Sabbath Day of restitution to the world, yet the venerable tradition is not without a reasonable foundation." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 39. 1889)

1889 "If, then, the seventh thousand-year period of earth's history be an epoch specially noted as the period of Christ's reign, we shall by showing that it began in 1873, be proving that we are already in it." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 40. 1889)

1889 "In the coming 26 years, all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 98-99, 1889)

1889 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence which indicates that six thousand years from the creation of Adam were complete with A.D. 1872; and hence that, since A.D. 1872 are chronologically entered upon the seventh thousand or the Millennium." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 33, 1889)

1889 "Remember that the forty years' Jewish Harvest ended October A.D. 69, and was followed by the complete overthrow of that nation; and that likewise the forty years of the Gospel age harvest will end October, 1914, and that likewise the overthrow of 'Christendom,' so-called, must be expected to immediately follow." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, p. 245)

1894 "Seventeen years ago people said, concerning the time features presented in Millennial Dawn, They seem reasonable in many respects, but surely no such radical changes could occur between now and the close of 1914: if you had proved that they would come about in a century or two, it would seem much more probable. What changes have since occurred, and what velocity is gained daily?'The old is quickly passing and the new is coming in.' Now, in view of recent labor troubles and threatened anarchy, our readers are writing to know if there may not be a mistake in the 1914 date. They say that they do not see how present conditions can hold out so long under the strain. We see no reason for changing the figures-nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Zion's Watchtower, Can It Be Delayed until 1914? C. T. Russell July 15, 1894, Also in Watchtower Reprints, l894 p. 1677)

1894 "A few more years will wind up the present order of things, and then the chastened world will stand face to face with the actual conditions of the established Kingdom of God. And yet the course of the Church is to be finished within the space of time that intervenes." (Watchtower p. 56, 1894)

1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures - nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower July 15, 1894, p 266; p 1677 reprints)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113821 Apr 10, 2013

FAILED Jehovah Witness Prophecies Part 3
1894 - 1897

1894 "We see no reason for changing the figures nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe, Gods dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble." (Watchtower, July 15, 1894, Reprints p. 1677)

1897 "...this measurement is 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years.... This calculation shows A.D. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble...." (Russell, Studies in the Scriptures: Thy Kingdom Come, Series III, p. 342, 1897 edition [1916 edition changed to read: "We find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years.... Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble...."] note: the measurement was the length of an interior passageway discovered inside the Pyramids. It has no reference in Scripture.)

1897 "Complete destruction of the 'powers that be' of 'this present evil worlds - political, financial, ecclesiastical - about the close of the Time of the Gentiles; October A.D. 1914." (C.T. Russell, Studies in the Scriptures, IV, p. 622, 1897)

1897 "Our Lord, the appointed King, is now present, since October 1874, A.D....and the formal inauguration of his kingly office dates from April 1878, A.D." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol.4, p.621, 1897)

1897 "The distillery, the brewery, the saloon, the brothel, the pool-room, all time-killing and character-depraving business will be stopped; and their servants will be given something to do that will be beneficial to themselves and others. "Similarly, the building of war-vessels, the manufacture of munitions of war and defense will cease, and armies will be disbanded. The new Kingdom will have no need of these, but will have abundant power to execute summary justice in the punishment of evil doers... "The banking and brokerage business, and other like employment's, very useful under present conditions, will no longer have a place; for under the new conditions the human race will be required to treat each others as members of one family, and private capital and money to loan and to be needed will be things of the past. Landlords and renting agencies will find new employment also, because the new King will not recognize as valid patents and deeds now on record. "...namely, that with present conveniences, if the whole people were put to work systematically and wisely, not more than three hours labor for each individual would be necessary." (Studies, Vol. IV, pp. 633-635, 1897)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113822 Apr 10, 2013
FAILED Jehovah Witness Prophecies Part 4

1900 - 1914


1902 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the kingdom of God, will be accomplished by the end of A.D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand, 1902 edition, p. 99)

1903 "When Uranus and Jupiter meet in the humane sign of Aquarius in 1914, the long-promised era will have made a fair start in the work of setting man free to work out his own salvation, and will insure the ultimate realization of dreams and ideals of all poets and sages in history." (Watchtower, May 1, 1903, p. 130-131; p3184 Reprints)

1904 "According to our expectations the stress of the great time of trouble will be on us soon, somewhere between 1910 and 1912, culminating with the end of the 'Times of the Gentiles,' October, 1914." (The New Creation, Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 6, p. 579, 1904)

1908 "In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the Times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A. D. 1914." (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

1908 "True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved" (The Time Is At Hand; 1889; 1908 ed.; p. 99)

1914 "Even if the time of our change should not come within ten years, what more should we ask? Are we not a blessed, happy people? Is not our God faithful? If anyone knows anything better, let him take it. If any of you ever find anything better, we hope you will tell us." (Watchtower, Dec 15, 1914, p. 376.)

1914 "Studying God's Word, we have measured the 2520 years, the seven symbolic times, from that year 606 B.C. and have found that it reached down to October, 1914, as nearly as we were able to reckon. We did not say positively that this would be the year." (Watchtower, November 1, 1914, p. 325)

1914 "While it's possible that Armageddon may begin next Spring, yet this purely speculation to attempt to say just when. We see, however, that there are parallels between the close of the Jewish age and this Gospel age. These parallels seem to point to the year just before us part particularly the early months." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, Sept 1, 1914, p. 5527)

1914 "There is absolutely no ground for Bible students to question that the consummation of this Gospel age is now even at the door, and that it will end as the Scriptures foretell in a great time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation. We see the participants in this great crisis banding themselves together… The great crisis, the great clash, symbolically represented as a fire, that will consume the ecclesiastical heavens and the social earth, is very near." (Watchtower Reprints, VI, May 1, 1914, p. 5450)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113823 Apr 10, 2013
And they go on for PAGES.....

http://www.bible.ca/Jw-Prophecy.htm

One more:

1995 "Why Awake is Published" [before Nov 8th 1995] Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away." [After Nov. 8 1995 reference to '1914 generation' deleted] "Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.

NOTICE the quote "[After Nov. 8 1995 reference to '1914 generation' deleted]"

You get your deception from the Watchtower.

But the Watchtower only answers to the Father of Lies.
KAB

United States

#113824 Apr 10, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
KAB. We already have gone over why they would be roughly the same as they are today.
You seemed to agree at the time when we covered why the Himalayan mountains were not that different a mere 4,500 years ago.
I have not agreed that the Himilayas were not that different 4500 years ago. You'll have to quote me to prove otherwise, like I so often do with assertions about previous posts from your side.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#113825 Apr 10, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not agreed that the Himilayas were not that different 4500 years ago. You'll have to quote me to prove otherwise, like I so often do with assertions about previous posts from your side.

You don't say much of anything. Avoiding genuine discussion is part of your strategy of deception probably taught to you by your cult overlords.

At least the above does not contain an obvious lie. So,... nice post.
James

Buffalo, NY

#113826 Apr 10, 2013
I do not assume that the Earth's contours were the same now as 4500 years ago, but on good evidence it is clear that Everest was actually about the same height then, as 4500 years is insignificant.

There is also good evidence that the tectonic plates have been moving for billions of years, and that if Everest was not the tallest mountain at the time of the flood (which is unlikely, seeing as the flood happened during the time of human civilisation), then another mountain of a similar height would have been (there are mountains now that are older than Everest that are say 1000 metres high that used to be 10 times higher).

Regardless, the Chinese civilisation has a continuous history of more than 5000 years, and the aborigines of Australia have continuity of 40,000 years - they were not wiped out, and their drawings of their Rainbow Serpent etc. over the years show no breaks.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#113827 Apr 10, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I have not agreed that the Himilayas were not that different 4500 years ago. You'll have to quote me to prove otherwise, like I so often do with assertions about previous posts from your side.
We went through the many facts that showed you were wrong and you did not object at the time. I thought we were finally getting the facts through your pointy little head.

I am not going to waste time looking for the posts that you now say that you ignored.

I do not feel like teaching the same lesson time after time to an idiot who refuses to learn since it goes against his superstitious beliefs.

Just trust me, we showed that you were wrong and why you were wrong.
KAB

Oxford, NC

#113828 Apr 10, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
???? Remember who has to carry the proof ball!? That would be YOU!
There is not enough water no matter what the contours of the earth were. There is only enough water to raise sea level about 240 feet (if you include all of the buried water, ice, snow, and water vapor on earth as liquid water).
Look it up or do the math.
Till you can refute that you don't have an argument.
All these things
I accept your "no matter what the contours" challenge. If Earth's solid surface was smooth, the water presently on the planet would entirely cover it to a depth of over 7,000 feet. Let the argument continue.
KAB

Oxford, NC

#113829 Apr 10, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
I did not request that you nay-say science.
I asked for your source that states that the mountains were thousands of feet lower and the oceans were shallower pre-flood and that they grew by thousands of feet while the oceans deepened by thousands of feet immediately following the alleged global flood.
OBVIOUSLY, you AGAIN CHOOSE to miss the point in what you consider a winning stratagem of dodge, distort, distract.
OBVIOUSLY, my reference was not to the coastal damage and toll of life from the 2004 tsunami, but what a vertical shift of a mere 50' is capable of. You are proposing that seismic events which are many orders of magnitude greater had no effect of the (re)building of civilization.
That's along the line of reasoning that it's harmless to shoot at someone with a howitzer barrage as long as you ALMOST miss them.
What is your source that states that the mountains were thousands of feet lower and the oceans were shallower pre-flood and that they grew by thousands of feet while the oceans deepened by thousands of feet immediately following the alleged global flood?
I am not proposing seismic events orders of magnitude greater than a 50 foot "instantaneous" shift. Why do you continue thinking in terms of such events. Hey, you have at least roughly a year to use. Be creative.
KAB

Oxford, NC

#113830 Apr 10, 2013
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
I did not request that you nay-say science.
I asked for your source that states that the mountains were thousands of feet lower and the oceans were shallower pre-flood and that they grew by thousands of feet while the oceans deepened by thousands of feet immediately following the alleged global flood.
OBVIOUSLY, you AGAIN/STILL CHOOSE to miss the point in what you consider a winning stratagem of dodge, distort, distract.
My source is the lack of confirmation that it couldn't have happened. Perhaps you could provide such confirmation. Didn't someone recently in this forum profess to be a geologist? That could be a good guide to some data.
KAB

Oxford, NC

#113831 Apr 10, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
So who was a "reliable prophet" in the Old Testament?
Surely not Ezekiel. Zeke blew the Tyre prophesy big time. The attempt to shift the goal posts to the invasion and defeat of Tyre hundreds of years after the fact is no more amazing than Chimney1's prediction that you would see a red car on a rainy day. The hard part would be to find a city that had not been defeated in hundreds of years in that part of the world. Tyre was also supposed to be defeated so badly that it would be never inhabited again and that it would be a bare rock where fisherman spread their nets to dry.
You better not tell that to the inhabitants of Tyre today:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon
I don't think the old city has been rebuilt. You can go look at ruins there today. BTW, the prophesy refers to it being scraped bare which is what was done, but then I suppose that's what happened to all cities in that part of the world, right?
LowellGuy

Lowell, MA

#113832 Apr 10, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
My source is the lack of confirmation that it couldn't have happened. Perhaps you could provide such confirmation. Didn't someone recently in this forum profess to be a geologist? That could be a good guide to some data.
You do realize that presuppositional apologetics is inherently intellectually bankrupt, yes?
KAB

Oxford, NC

#113833 Apr 10, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text> You mean like the reliable source of the WatchTower cult. You want to review their failed prophecies?
I didn't think so, Mr. Chickenfeces.
Or how about the NWT which you have proven inept and incompetent at defending?
Ah,... not up for it, eh?
I am not surprised.
<quoted text>A comprehensive knowledge of the Bible also makes the JW cult followers look like morons.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =ur6ffjVsG8UXX
<quoted text>So we have already won. We have pointed out many errors and you have been reduced to a babbling fool in trying to defend it. Sloshing mud around in a bucket is not a defense. Demonstrating pi=3 would be better. But what I rEALLy want to see is you explain how the Egyptians never even noticed the flood and continued building pyramids and expanding their civilization.
Keep cowering. I don't expect an answer because you can never seem to provide any.
Aren't hundreds of years between Egyptian civilization data points in time bridged together only by ancient documents if at all? I know you don't trust those.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#113834 Apr 10, 2013
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think the old city has been rebuilt. You can go look at ruins there today. BTW, the prophesy refers to it being scraped bare which is what was done, but then I suppose that's what happened to all cities in that part of the world, right?
No, it wasn't scraped bare. Where did you get that idea from?

And it was never to be inhabited again, it has always been inhabited.

And worst, the wrong person defeated Tyre. The defeat did not occur until about 300 years after the prophecy. That is not a prophecy at all. It was aimed at the king of the time, not some unknown future king.

The Tyre prophesy is the worst failure of all prophesies in the Bible and it is fun to watch fundies twist and turn in trying to defend it.

If you would admit Zeke effed up we wouldn't be able to constantly laugh at you for this giant faux pas.

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