It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

Full story: Asheville Citizen-Times

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

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KAB

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#110229
Feb 14, 2013
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
And is your understanding greater or less than that of the experts in the field? Why should you trust YOUR understanding and not that of people who have devoted, collectively, tens of thousands of years studying and learning about this very subject? I'm not saying to blindly accept, but you do recognize that the odds of the ignorant being right about something about which they are ignorant versus the odds of the expert being right about something about which they are expert are inversely proportionate, yes? You don't go to a doctor, ask him what he thinks, and then compare that with your personal understanding of disease/injury/etc. and decide if you're going to overrule his judgement, do you? You might seek out another expert, but would you simply allow yourself to use your own ill-informed understanding to trump the expert opinion of someone educated in that field, much less a few, much less hundreds, much less tens of thousands? The odds of you being right and them being wrong are so preposterous that you must be wildly delusional to give it a modicum of consideration. That you think you should accept your own ignorance over the knowledge of the world says a lot about your standards of evidence. Once again, it's "whatever I say must be true until someone proves me wrong." That's invalid reasoning. You should always begin with the premise that your personal understanding is wrong. As soon as you begin doing that, you'll stop being such a horse's ass.
It's the experts' info that I have related. I do that since I'm not an expert in the field. For that matter, what is the expert source of your "tens of thousands" of experts in this field reference? Also, what multitude of experts has been provided stating that there could not have been a bottleneck 4500 years ago? For my part, I'm going to withhold judgment until I review the experts' data as I always do. You might want to try this approach, but presently I doubt it.

BTW, I have on occasion opposed doctors after assimilating their expert info and advice, and it has proven to be the wise course. In case you're interested, the appropriate process is to gather expert info, then reason thru it and draw your conclusions, which may not be the same as theirs, yet still supported by their data.
KAB

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#110230
Feb 14, 2013
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
So the Data says it would have taken longer. But you assert that it would not have taken as long.
And a cheetah is one of your best case examples.
Is 3529 greater or less than 4500?

As to the cheetah being best case, didn't I ask "What's next"?

“I am Sisyphus”

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#110231
Feb 14, 2013
 

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KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Not without confirming data. You can state anything you want, but can you confirm it as true?

Yep.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer

" Carter, Robert A. and Philip, Graham Beyond the Ubaid: Transformation and Integration in the Late Prehistoric Societies of the Middle East (Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Number 63) The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (2010) ISBN 978-1-885923-66-0 p.2, at http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/... ; "Radiometric data suggest that the whole Southern Mesopotamian Ubaid period, including Ubaid 0 and 5, is of immense duration, spanning nearly three millenia from about 6500 to 3800 B.C."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu

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#110232
Feb 14, 2013
 

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KAB wrote:
<quoted text> BTW, I have on occasion opposed doctors after assimilating their expert info and advice, and it has proven to be the wise course.

My daughters mother-in-law did this too. She is now dying.

[QUOTE who="KAB"]<quoted text> In case you're interested, the appropriate process is to gather expert info, then reason thru it and draw your conclusions, which may not be the same as theirs, yet still supported by their data.

No, you have to have a reason to question an expert. The legitimate reasons to do so are certainly quite numerous. Base incredulity is not one of them, however.

“I am Sisyphus”

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#110233
Feb 14, 2013
 
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Is 3529 greater or less than 4500?
As to the cheetah being best case, didn't I ask "What's next"?

As you failed with the Cheetah data we would most enjoy continuing to rub your nose in it till you change the subject.

Did you take all the dates as equal or did you pick the one you liked?

Did you note the different methodology for the dates or did you just pick the one you liked?

Level 5

Since: Apr 12

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#110234
Feb 14, 2013
 
I found the passage which you are referring to.
However, it goes on to say "Because demographic considerations would make the survival of a few individuals from such a catastrophe unlikely, a series of less severe bottlenecks spread over time and over geographic space is more realistic."

Here are some quotes from the article:

"The back calculation ... supports the placement of the bottleneck on the order of the end of the Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago."

"The results support an ancient bottleneck 6000-20,000 years before the present."
KAB

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#110235
Feb 14, 2013
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
" Carter, Robert A. and Philip, Graham Beyond the Ubaid: Transformation and Integration in the Late Prehistoric Societies of the Middle East (Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Number 63) The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (2010) ISBN 978-1-885923-66-0 p.2, at http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/... ; "Radiometric data suggest that the whole Southern Mesopotamian Ubaid period, including Ubaid 0 and 5, is of immense duration, spanning nearly three millenia from about 6500 to 3800 B.C."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu
That's not data. It's a reference to data, and even then the data is only credited with suggesting, not confirming.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#110236
Feb 14, 2013
 
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Hmm.
6,000 years ago the Sumerian civilization was already at its height.
Ah the Ubaid. Sumerians are presumed to have entered later.
Ubaid later sttled in UVA. uhh...language bump that would be the unified arab emirates.
The only arab country i know that had archeologists scoure the place, insists on C14 dating, and are now proud of their progeny.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#110237
Feb 14, 2013
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
" Carter, Robert A. and Philip, Graham Beyond the Ubaid: Transformation and Integration in the Late Prehistoric Societies of the Middle East (Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Number 63) The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (2010) ISBN 978-1-885923-66-0 p.2, at http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/... ; "Radiometric data suggest that the whole Southern Mesopotamian Ubaid period, including Ubaid 0 and 5, is of immense duration, spanning nearly three millenia from about 6500 to 3800 B.C."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu
Ah jumped the gun.
Execellent.
By 2000 BC the demise of the Sumerian civilisitation set in.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#110238
Feb 14, 2013
 
Suggest, tentatively...and such words are normal in scientific papers.
It is an asknowledgement that their research will be scrutinized again, and someone might falsify it.
So the scientific method in full swing.
The formulation is always carefull.
If you read some of the data we provided you would have been familiar with this practice.

““You must not lose faith ”

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#110239
Feb 14, 2013
 
V.A.E just for that part of the populace that would be from my region.
KAB

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#110240
Feb 14, 2013
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
No, you have to have a reason to question an expert. The legitimate reasons to do so are certainly quite numerous. Base incredulity is not one of them, however.
If your daughter's mother-in-law took her action without understanding the info she was provided, she may have acted unwisely, depending on her objective.

I agree regarding the incredulity. One should be able to use the available data to justify one's conclusion.
KAB

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#110241
Feb 14, 2013
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you failed with the Cheetah data we would most enjoy continuing to rub your nose in it till you change the subject.
Did you take all the dates as equal or did you pick the one you liked?
Did you note the different methodology for the dates or did you just pick the one you liked?
I considered the full range of data along with the explanation of methodology, and objectively realized that the correct answer could scientifically legitimately be 4500 years. How did you decide the correct answer is 10,000?
KAB

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#110242
Feb 14, 2013
 

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MAAT wrote:
Suggest, tentatively...and such words are normal in scientific papers.
It is an asknowledgement that their research will be scrutinized again, and someone might falsify it.
So the scientific method in full swing.
The formulation is always carefull.
If you read some of the data we provided you would have been familiar with this practice.
I am very familiar with the practice, and use it routinely in my own work. It means "this may not be correct, but it's what we think now".
KAB

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#110243
Feb 14, 2013
 
Thomas Robertson wrote:
I found the passage which you are referring to.
However, it goes on to say "Because demographic considerations would make the survival of a few individuals from such a catastrophe unlikely, a series of less severe bottlenecks spread over time and over geographic space is more realistic."
Here are some quotes from the article:
"The back calculation ... supports the placement of the bottleneck on the order of the end of the Pleistocene, about 10,000 years ago."
"The results support an ancient bottleneck 6000-20,000 years before the present."
Those are summary statements. What is the span or possible span according to the actual data?
KAB

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#110244
Feb 14, 2013
 
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you failed with the Cheetah data we would most enjoy continuing to rub your nose in it till you change the subject.
Did you take all the dates as equal or did you pick the one you liked?
Did you note the different methodology for the dates or did you just pick the one you liked?
I don't change subjects until they are either resolved or can be taken no further.
marksman11

Asheville, NC

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#110245
Feb 14, 2013
 
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Good morning, marksman. I hope you and your loved ones are well.
It appears elohim doesn't have the firm grasp of statistical mechanics that you and I share.
God bless you.
oh, he does:-)
marksman11

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#110246
Feb 14, 2013
 
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
<quoted text>
Evolution accounts for consciousness just as Matthew does, just without that blessed confusing layer.
Matthew 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Then please explain the processes in which consciousness evolved! THank you.
marksman11

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#110247
Feb 14, 2013
 
15th Dalai Lama wrote:
Blessed are the confused, for they shall inherit right wing politics.
-- I said that.
no doubt:-)

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#110248
Feb 14, 2013
 
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not data. It's a reference to data, and even then the data is only credited with suggesting, not confirming.


sorry chump. You lost again.

Anyone with a sincere interest in the truth can follow these resources. Since you are unwilling to do that a summary refutation is what you get. But refuted you are, unless you have any data....

Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubaid_period
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumer
" Carter, Robert A. and Philip, Graham Beyond the Ubaid: Transformation and Integration in the Late Prehistoric Societies of the Middle East (Studies in Ancient Oriental Civilization, Number 63) The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago (2010) ISBN 978-1-885923-66-0 p.2, at http://oi.uchicago.edu/research/pubs/catalog/ ... ; "Radiometric data suggest that the whole Southern Mesopotamian Ubaid period, including Ubaid 0 and 5, is of immense duration, spanning nearly three millenia from about 6500 to 3800 B.C."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eridu

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