It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 151011 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#105506 Dec 29, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
No, we have evidence of the god claim.
You have evidence for God?? May we see it??

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#105507 Dec 29, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did you get that info? This is a prime example for showing the value of providing, or at least researching confirming data before risking making asinine ass-ertions such as you did in this case. Such fundamental errors would be so easily avoided if you would just discipline yourself to seek confirming data before shooting off your keyboard.
The Catholics came up with that little lie. They're pretty good at reading crap into scripture.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#105508 Dec 29, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
JWs do not believe they have all the answers regarding the Bible and Christianity in general (John 16:12; Matthew 24:36). They only know what has been made known.
They do not believe they will be the only ones to inherit the earth (Acts 24:15)
One does not get disfellowshipped for having doubts about a teaching. Rather he is encouraged and assisted to continue studying, pondering, and prayfully meditating on the data, and beyond that, waiting on Jehovah for updates (Proverbs 2:1-5, Matthew 24:45-47).
Ok, say I'm a JW and I happen to believe (know) that the Noachian flood never happened. When I'm studying with other members I mention this and get into a discussion about the subject and really defend my position...how long do you think it would take for an Elder to corner me? Now I believe this very strongly and I know that my position is right so I tell this to the Elder...what happens? Same goes for Adam and Eve and other things I have mentioned before. How long before I'm disfellowshipped?

Regarding inheriting the earth and having ALL the answers, I know this to be true...at least in 3 halls I am familiar with.

The 144,000 go to heaven as administrators and the earth will be populated by primarily Witnesses.

I have argued all of these to Witnesses and they just don't listen because they 'know they are right' no questions allowed.

By the way I am not a disfellowshipped Witness.

Level 2

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#105509 Dec 30, 2012
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>That is not the question. THe correct question is, "are they doing the CORRECT things?". If you and I were walking together to a common distination, and we came to a fork in the road, you chose to go left. I silently prayed for guidance and chose to go right, and my choice was found to be the only correct choice, was my prayer answered?
why would a god reveal himself to an empty vessel such as yourself, but not reveal himself to honest, moral, persons

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#105510 Dec 30, 2012
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>It is equally ignorant.
I heard an atheist on talk radio last night say that JEsus didn't exist because had there actually been a virgin birth that the female only chromosomes would only allow for a female baby. As if the creator of science must adhere to the rigid limits of his creation!!......lol.
No, the religious exhibit a whole other level of hubris and ignorance. You somehow believe that you know the mind of the creator of all space and time, yet cannot seem to grasp even the most basic flaws of your mythology.
Parthenogenesis is the term for a fatherless pregnancy (literally from Greek meaning "virgin birth"). Males carry both x and y chromosomes, females only carry an x chromosome. In the case of a human single sex pregnancy only the female x chromosome is available for duplication, and the result will be a female child.
This does not at all infer that a man named Jesus did not exist, it merely inflicts (even more) considerable doubt to the validity of the virgin birth story.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#105511 Dec 30, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
First, the list is not mine. It's your side that has alleged it without providing confirming data for even one item on it, and only a few items have even been mentioned. I think it's because most of the participants making those allegations here are actually rather ignorant of the Bible. They only know what others have told them, unconfirmed.
As to your itemized list, by all means go on if it makes you happy. As long as it's dataless it's harmless anyway. Remember, lack of evidence is not evidence of lack, and I have provided supporting physical data from several categories.
If you really want to do something productive and enlightening, research observed mutation rate data and the fossil record progression thru time, versus life's variety and the time available to generate it. Let us know what you find.
The list is entirely yours to provide. YOU are the one making the assertion that tens of thousands of challenges to the Bible have been proven false - you are the AUTHOR of that claim, surely you have the infortmation at your fingertips?
And again and still, I DIRECTLY invite you to provide that information you claim the "Darwin crowd" lacks.

Mutation rates hinge greatly on environmental factors. Take for example the increased lung capacity of highland humans, such as in Peru, New Guinea, the Great Rift Valley. Some researchers suspect that adaptation occurs in bursts, while others hold that it is a slower, more steady process.
In either case, can evolution account for the planet's diversification of life in a mere 4500 (flood) to 6000 (Eden) years? Nope. Does that by necessity indicate divine manipulation? Nope. Is a few billion years enough time to develop the biosphere to its current complexity? Yup.

“See how you are?”

Level 5

Since: Jul 12

Earth

#105512 Dec 30, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Where did you get that info? This is a prime example for showing the value of providing, or at least researching confirming data before risking making asinine ass-ertions such as you did in this case. Such fundamental errors would be so easily avoided if you would just discipline yourself to seek confirming data before shooting off your keyboard.
Confirming "data" such as? What proof do you have that Mary was a virgin? Is there some odd long forgotten Jewish tradition that prevented Joseph and Mary from consummating their marriage on their wedding night? Is there any written record of Joseph, Mary or Jesus contemporary to Jesus' lifetime? Some graffiti on a wall, a Roman census, tax record or pertinent commentary about the tumultuous happenings of the day? Do you somehow believe that a guy who walked on water and fed 5,000 people with a few fish and pieces of bread would not have been a remarkably NOTEWORTHY celebrity until 4 -10 decades later?
Do you actually have any "data" outside of what was written by the followers of Jesus in the decades after the crucifixion? On ANYTHING? Anything at all?

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#105513 Dec 30, 2012
Thomas Robertson wrote:
I used to attend skeptic group meetings. On four occasions, I took on the group single-handed. One member said there was no God. I asked him how he knew. One member said that there was no such thing as magic. I asked him how he knew. One member said that the soul had no pre-existence. I asked him how he knew. One member said that animals had no consciousness. I asked him how he knew.
I declare a plague o’ both of your houses and I attack both of your houses.
Good on you. Too many call themselves skeptics while merely supporting another dogma. A skeptic needs to know when to say "I (we) don't know", and that answer usually should appear within 3-4 recursions of the question "Why?"!

Level 2

Since: Feb 12

Roseville, CA

#105514 Dec 30, 2012
thewordofme wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok, say I'm a JW and I happen to believe (know) that the Noachian flood never happened. When I'm studying with other members I mention this and get into a discussion about the subject and really defend my position...how long do you think it would take for an Elder to corner me? Now I believe this very strongly and I know that my position is right so I tell this to the Elder...what happens? Same goes for Adam and Eve and other things I have mentioned before. How long before I'm disfellowshipped?
Regarding inheriting the earth and having ALL the answers, I know this to be true...at least in 3 halls I am familiar with.
The 144,000 go to heaven as administrators and the earth will be populated by primarily Witnesses.

I have argued all of these to Witnesses and they just don't listen because they 'know they are right' no questions allowed.
By the way I am not a disfellowshipped Witness.
You're gonna be disfellowshipped, depending on where you live. I was raised JW, my dad an elder. My parents found an auction of old Watchtower books from 1880s-1940's, I started reading them when I was 16. I couldn't even get elders to read those books, as they considered what I was doing as borderline apostate, even though they were written by ct russel, rutherford, etc...
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#105515 Dec 30, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
An idiot is someone who refuses to learn, not someone who asks to be taught. You refuse to learn, I seek out more information and learn as much as I can.
Live as if you were to die tomorrow, learn as if you were to live forever.
- Unknown to me, but a great quote that should be repeated.
I admit to not knowing something so someone can present some evidence, that way I can learn about it. You refuse to learn, you refuse to even examine the evidence, you refuse to admit you don't know something. That makes you both an idiot, and a liar.
If you take your last breath today, and in a flash are standing before Almighty GOD, then who is the idiot?
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#105516 Dec 30, 2012
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
So then you oppose other christians, I said your type, not you specifically. My father didn't give me more things because ... well ... I didn't ask for more. Want to know what I wanted when I was 8? I wanted a job, I wanted to earn money and walk into store with hard earned money, money that I earned, and bought something. I was 8 and wanted be more like my dad. He literally gave me everything, and I do mean everything, I asked for. I had a paper route a week later, since that was the only job a child was allowed at the time.
Your god wont even provide jobs for people who want them. But that isn't the worst part, your god screams and cries, rants and raves, about people worshiping it, even threatening with eternal torture, yet won't offer any actual evidence for it's existence. Your god sounds like a toddler who wants a toy for a present but gets something else instead. You rationalize all the failures of your god by saying "it's his will" robotic like as if that somehow actually makes sense. Well it doesn't, if your god was real, and just, and fair, and honest, it would not condemn people for doubting what other people claim without evidence.
So your claims are ALL lies.
You have reached this point....

romans 1
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

28
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not proper;

You can find any reason you want to reject GOD, and even to hate him if you want, but your mind is not clear and has been clouded by your own rejection. I wish there was help for you, but I'm afraid you are past that point. Continue in your bitterness.
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#105517 Dec 30, 2012
ChromiuMan wrote:
<quoted text>
No, the religious exhibit a whole other level of hubris and ignorance. You somehow believe that you know the mind of the creator of all space and time, yet cannot seem to grasp even the most basic flaws of your mythology.
Parthenogenesis is the term for a fatherless pregnancy (literally from Greek meaning "virgin birth"). Males carry both x and y chromosomes, females only carry an x chromosome. In the case of a human single sex pregnancy only the female x chromosome is available for duplication, and the result will be a female child.
This does not at all infer that a man named Jesus did not exist, it merely inflicts (even more) considerable doubt to the validity of the virgin birth story.
I'll say it AGAIN!!! I understand all that, and have for years, but do you really think that if the biblical GOD exists, and is the creator of ALL THINGS, he hasn't the ability for a male child to be brought forth in a virgin birth? For GOD, that is nothing!!!!
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#105518 Dec 30, 2012
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
why would a god reveal himself to an empty vessel such as yourself, but not reveal himself to honest, moral, persons
Because he loves me just as much as he does those that choose to become arrogant.
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#105519 Dec 30, 2012
Thomas Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Then what does I John 4:8 mean?
It says that God is love.
But does it say that is all GOD is? Does it say GOD consists of nothing but love? If he wasn't anything other than love, then maybe all of your claims and excuses to reject him would be valid, but he is much more.
Thomas Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
You probably mean that usually people who belittle the Bible or make fun of God’s Biblical attributes are people whom you are quick to call atheists.
In my experience, Creationists are often quick to slap that label on people.
That is probably because Evolution has favored members who are on the alert for enemies and predators.
But now that we are living in a comfortable lifestyle with no real enemies or predators, we are left with an instinct which we no longer need.
So the Creationists have to vent their adrenalin on an imaginary enemy.
Funny that Creationists declare that Evolution is false, and then turn right around and demonstrate that Evolution is true.
Twisted like a real pro:-)
Thomas Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Anyway, even if there is a God, I don’t see how he could be represented truthfully by any of the world’s major religions.
Even if there is a God, that doesn’t mean that every man who lives a good Moslem life spends eternity with 75 plump and voluptuous prostitutes.
Even if there is a God, that doesn’t mean that Krishna cloned himself and simultaneously danced with every cowmaiden in the countryside.
Even if there is a God, that doesn’t mean that there have been talking snakes and talking donkeys, that Jesus is living somewhere up there in a physical body with no oxygen, or that they had funny-looking circles in Solomon’s time.
I don't think the bible has ever even tried to say that Jesus was living in a physical body without oxygen. Maybe you should get your premises straight before you build these false strwman, and then start beating them up.
Thomas Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Your accusation of spinelessness is unfair. I used to attend skeptic group meetings. On four occasions, I took on the group single-handed. One member said there was no God. I asked him how he knew. One member said that there was no such thing as magic. I asked him how he knew. One member said that the soul had no pre-existence. I asked him how he knew. One member said that animals had no consciousness. I asked him how he knew.
I declare a plague o’ both of your houses and I attack both of your houses.
You are an evolutionist. You say that we as humans are kin to tobacco stalks, how do you know? You say that Jesus is physical and living without oxygen, but how do you know? You don't believe that GOD created living things and you have no scientific alturnative, so how do you know? You say that living things can evolve from one kind of living thing into something completely different over time, but this has never been observed in the history of the planet, so how do you know? You belittle talking animals and infer GOD can't create such, even though birds talk everyday, so....how do you know this never occurred? You say that natural processes that are random, haphazard, without aim or method, produced the most complex thing in the known universe,the human brain, but how do you know? That this kind of complexity is not a product of design, even though a walk through the woods and you can't even find the complexity of a 2 hinged nut cracker without DNA, yet radomness produced the human brain?....so how do you know this to be true? Why do skeptics think there is no reason for others to be skeptical of their silliness?
marksman11

Asheville, NC

#105520 Dec 30, 2012
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
why would a god reveal himself to an empty vessel such as yourself, but not reveal himself to honest, moral, persons
Why did GOD reveal himself incarnate to fisherman and the like rather that the religious leaders and politicians, and people like you? GOD works with those who are obedient and love him. He chooses not use those who place themselves above him.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Evolution is true.....

#105521 Dec 30, 2012
Usuallyunique wrote:
<quoted text>
You're gonna be disfellowshipped, depending on where you live. I was raised JW, my dad an elder. My parents found an auction of old Watchtower books from 1880s-1940's, I started reading them when I was 16. I couldn't even get elders to read those books, as they considered what I was doing as borderline apostate, even though they were written by ct russel, rutherford, etc...
Hi Usallyunique, thanks for the reply.

I think I worded that 'not a disfellowshipped witness' wrong. I am not a witness, now or ever, would be better statement.

Like most things I encounter in life...I try to understand and learn about it/them. Jehovah's Witnesses come to my door I invite them in for a little chat..:-)

I have found that for the most part the JW's stick to their own when they make friends, but occasionally they will befriend someone out of the circle. I am one of those people, and I have several Witnesses for friends and I get lots of information about the organization from them...not to use against them, but to understand them better.

I too have found that the Witnesses don't much like to talk about the past of the Organization, as they have had a few missteps that they would just as soon forget. The 'end of the world as we know it' in 1918 and 1976 comes to mind.

In the 1976 one, everyone was totally sure it was going to happen and the Watchtower egged them on. Witnesses were not paying their mortgages or rents, running up humongous credit and credit card bills, saying goodbye to their non-witness friends and family, abandoning everything...just all kinds of stupid things.

The deadline came and went...

The JW's lost about half of their membership...devastating for a relatively small organization.

Level 2

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#105522 Dec 30, 2012
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>If you take your last breath today, and in a flash are standing before Almighty GOD, then who is the idiot?
if pigs could fly

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#105523 Dec 30, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's your statement,
"That's talking about believers doubting."
I just simply provided data confirming you were incorrect. It's as simple as that. The Jews were not believers in Jesus as the Messiah which is the truth the disciples were there teaching them.
So ... you were being dishonest as always. I already stated that.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#105524 Dec 30, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
No, we have evidence of the god claim.
So ... where is it?
KAB

Wilson, NC

#105525 Dec 30, 2012
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
No on both counts. Yet, you demand such a level of evidence regarding your Bible stories being false while not demanding anywhere near that level of evidence regarding them being true. Hypocrisy is the only way the Bible can be true.
If you think there's a chance Earth may be cubic in shape then there's nothing further to be gained from interaction with you.

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