It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the ...

It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate

There are 143940 comments on the Asheville Citizen-Times story from Mar 15, 2009, titled It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in evolution debate. In it, Asheville Citizen-Times reports that:

I would like to respond to the letter 'Recent letter offered no examples of Darwinian disingenuousness,' . He responds to an article with, 'He says evolution is 'so riddled with holes,' yet fails to provide a ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Asheville Citizen-Times.

Level 2

Since: Jun 08

Matthews, NC

#99081 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
Perhaps you missed the Canadian meteor crater lake data,
Wait a minute! It didn't have one year resolution!!!! Doesn't that invalidate the findings?? Besides - you have no other corroboration from other crater lakes.
KAB wrote:
the other crater lakes data,
Oh, you mean the Mbalang crater lake which showed

"monotonous sedimentation interpreted as a relatively dry phase"

between 2000 and 7000 ybp?
http://hol.sagepub.com/content/22/1/31.abstra...

That crater lake?? Like I said - no other corroboration makes your Canadian crater lake a regional phenomenon.

And what do you mean by "lakes"???

What other crater lake data did you present??
KAB wrote:
and all the other 4500 ybp timeframe flood data I've provided from around the earth over the past one-to-two years.
All?? From around the earth???

I only saw ONE reference on alluvial flooding which covered 3 flooding events in ONE location - the Sonoran desert (near Phoenix)4100 ybp. Flooding in ONE location hardly constitutes data for a global flood.
KAB

United States

#99082 Oct 3, 2012
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Funny there seems to be an extreme lack of recorded history of this. You know like a note on the side of a pyramid "Continuing construction after a several hundred year delay due to flood"
Who of the 8 survivors would record that history?
KAB

United States

#99083 Oct 3, 2012
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Then why piss and moan about what I said?
You questioned how things got back to normal in a year.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#99084 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Who of the 8 survivors would record that history?
You know, all of those civilizations that never skipped a beat.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#99085 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You questioned how things got back to normal in a year.
And still do.

Level 2

Since: Jun 08

Matthews, NC

#99086 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
Because no such confirming data has been provided.
Confirming data has been provided, repeatedly, which contradicts a global flood

Sedimentary evidence contradicting a global flood.

1. Regional flood evidence found in Black Sea sediment cores at 9400 years - but no flood sediment evidence in the same cores at 4500 years
2. Sedimentary core evidence shows a stable Danube Delta/sea level for the last 6000 years.
3. Paleo-artifacts/sedimentary analysis show lower, and not higher, Atacama lake levels 4500 years ago
4. Statistical assessment of Paleo-Storm Records and sedimentary analysis from coastal lagoon in Puerto Rico finds nothing more substantial than hurricanes during the last 5500 years.
5. Mineralogy, chemical composition and sedimentary facies analyses of the deposits confirm mid-Holocene aridity 6000-3800 ybp in the Southern Chilean Altiplano (Atacama Desert).
6. The mid-holocene tropical African climate shifted towards increasingly drier conditions 6000-4000 ybp. The onset of the transition is marked by a peak in dust content in Kilimanjaro ice cores, changes in geochemical composition of marine sediments and pollen data throughout the region
7. The mid-holocene sediment of the Tibetan Plateau 5.4 to 4.0 ka, showed lower lake levels, a consequence of drier climate. Sediments from 4.0 to 1.4 ka reflects the driest periods recorded with lake shrinkage and salinization.
8. Pollen analysis of the mid-holocene sedimentary record from Lake Ugii Nuur in central Mongolia, shows a prolonged dry climate between 58303080 14C BP,
9. Geochemical and mineralogical analyses, radiocarbon dating and magnetic susceptibility of the Holocene sediments of the Mbalang core were marked by a monotonous sedimentation interpreted as a relatively dry phase, from 2000-7000 ybp.
10. Comparative sedimentary analysis of major Chinese deserts found there was no common wet period throughout the Holocene record.
11. The "discontinuity" at Volo Bog evidenced by an increase in prairie grass pollen 4500 years ago, indicating oak woods and savanna with increasing prairie.
12. Collapse and emptying of Glacial Lake Missoula formed immense ripples, channels, etc., in Eastern Washington state; the outline of the flooded area still obvious with nothing washed away.
13. No discontinuity at 4500 BP in Illinois. The environment has been drying out since the end of the Ice Age.

Summary of genetic bottleneck data which contradicts a global flood

1. African Elephant population bottlenecked @ 2ka
2. Masai Mara African Buffalo population bottlenecked @ 7ka
3. Queen Elizabeth African buffalo population bottlenecked @ 3ka
4. Cheetah population bottlenecked @ 3.5, 6, 11.7, and 12.7 ka
5. Human population bottlenecked @ 50 ka and 20 ka.

Additional data which contradicts a global flood 4500 yrs ago

1. Measurements of cosmogenic isotope 21 Ne in quartz clasts in an Atacama Desert river bed shows no water present for the last 120,000 years.
2. Mojave Desert rock varnish documenting a dry period over the last 10 ka
3. Coral core analysis shows corals reefs flourishing 4500 years ago.
4. The settlement complex Caleta Huelen-42 in the Southern Chilean Altiplano, dated to 4780-3780 BP, shows unequivocal evidence of sedentarism associated with a small village of fisher-gatherers.
5. DNA sequences of ancient cattle, as well as cattle living today, found that the DNA differences could only have arisen if a small number of animals, approximately 80, were domesticated from wild ox (aurochs) 10,500 yrs ago
6. Continuous tree ring data going back 11,000 yrs w/no evidence of global flooding 4500 yrs ago.
7. Pyramids built during time of hypothetical global flood

Level 2

Since: Jun 08

Matthews, NC

#99087 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
My recollection is that it was NASA, and the discussion was not about gravity.
The discussion was about Job 26:7

"God stretches the northern sky over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing."

Is NASA on record as saying gravity is nothing?

Level 2

Since: Jun 08

Matthews, NC

#99088 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
Mostly because I tend to stick to the topic, and that's not what was being discussed. You, on the other hand, failed to mention what was directly part of the topic of discussion.
I'm beginning to see a pattern of dodging here.

The topic was about anteaters surviving/finding a food source after a make believe global flood, therefore my response was right on.

<tangled bank wrote>
You didn't mention that data has not been provided showing that anteaters would have survived a hypothetical migration from the Middle East to S. America after a hypothetical global flood when (1) there would have been no "living substance,", i.e., food, left on the surface of the earth (Gen 7:4)(including hard boiled eggs) and (2) there was no "fresh" drinking water available as all streams, rivers, and lakes would have been salinated by the flood.

Why do you suppose that you failed to mention this?"

Level 2

Since: Jun 08

Matthews, NC

#99089 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
As the abstract indicates, be careful what you believe.
And as a literature review bringing together data from over 100 different researchers, the authors noted that:
"... it is hoped that this special issue will improve our knowledge considerably."

Why do you suppose you ignored the part about "this special issue improving our knowledge considerably?"
KAB wrote:
Also, what is the wet/dry transition time resolution of the data?
The wet/dry time resolution was sufficient to see that there was no "common wet period" throughout the entire holocene.
http://igg.cas.cn/xwzx/yjcg/201003/W020100310...

No global flood data
No global flood
KAB

United States

#99090 Oct 3, 2012
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
And the geologists who somehow don't see the global flood in the evidence, and the geneticists who don't see the universal genetic bottleneck 4500 years ago, and the paleontologists who don't see the creation sequence from Genesis in the fossil record...but you see all of those things, because you know how to properly read and interpret scientific research and the evidence it presents. I stand by what I said. You just don't like the way the truth makes you look. Rather than lie about it, stop being such an arrogant bastard.
The issue is not global flood, bottlenecks, and creation sequence. It's what the data shows, and that they do see and understand. You don't.

Level 2

Since: Jun 08

Matthews, NC

#99091 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
You probably recall that other research actually calculated a bottleneck in the Middle East (was characterized as "leaving" Africa).
at ~50 ka, and another bottleneck @~20 ka (Bearing strait)
KAB wrote:
The European and Asian bottlenecks would then be "expansion" bottlenecks as the population spread.
If the European and Asian populations were descendants of Noah - what happened to the original (ancient) bottleneck genetic signature that should have been found in these populations? Please provided data with your answer.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99092 Oct 3, 2012
marksman11 wrote:
<quoted text>It was around thousands of years ago.

The pyramids were, but the "pyramidiots" (As Zahi Hawass calls you guys) were not. Pyramidiotism is a new age Christian fantasy.
KAB

United States

#99093 Oct 3, 2012
tangled bank wrote:
<quoted text>
Fig. 3 depicts 7 cores from three major deserts in China and 6 diagrammatic representations of wet/dry periods based in part on aeolian and lacustrine sediments from 6 other deserts in China. The combined data, representing ~100 researchers, shows that there was no "common wet period" throughout the entire holocene. This would mean there was no global flood.
http://igg.cas.cn/xwzx/yjcg/201003/W020100310...
No global flood data
No global flood
You apparently will never learn that "no wet period" on these time scales with their associated tens-to-hundreds of years resolutions does not preclude the possibility of there having been a flood (during the dry spell).

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99094 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Yet you insist we have no evidence for a global flood, although we have no precedent for what such evidence would be.

Being disingenuous? Or just a dodge.

We know what flood sediment looks like and we completely lack any such evidence from the time period in question.

We know that civilizations were thriving at that time.

We know there are not 2 individual bottlenecks for any of the species we have examined.

I CAN go on. Do you really need me to? I think not. While you will certainly continue to argue this ridiculous notion, you have not one scrap of evidence that an unbiased examiner would not laugh at.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99095 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
Who of the 8 survivors would record that history?

Gilligan.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99096 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You questioned how things got back to normal in a year.

You suggested repopulating the world in "hundreds of years". That would be back to normal and the Egyptians could resume their pyramid building.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99097 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
The issue is not global flood, bottlenecks, and creation sequence. It's what the data shows, and that they do see and understand. You don't.

And the data in fact shows [envelope please].... It shows that there is not one scrap of evidence of a global flood, that most species have no record of bottlenecks during that period, that NO species has a bottleneck of anything close to 2 individuals AND that the creation sequence is wrong.

You Lose Again. And in grand style.

Don't forget you DO get our home edition...

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#99098 Oct 3, 2012
KAB wrote:
<quoted text>
You apparently will never learn that "no wet period" on these time scales with their associated tens-to-hundreds of years resolutions does not preclude the possibility of there having been a flood (during the dry spell).

Actually, it DOES preclude a global flood that would have left sedimentary evidence as attested to many times before.

Apparently you will never learn that you are a "drooling idiot" even if you are having a dry spell in the fact department.
KAB

Oxford, NC

#99099 Oct 3, 2012
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
So, land doesn't collapse in earthquakes? Really?
So, land doesn't tremble, sway, or become unstable in earthquakes? Really?
So, land doesn't move unsteadily in earthquakes? Really?
Fascinating. Clearly you must be an expert in earthquakes to think these things don't happen.
The earth doesn't collapse to destruction in an earthquake. It just changes shape. The context of the verse addresses the permanence of the earth.
KAB

Oxford, NC

#99100 Oct 3, 2012
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
You never said what all the kinds are. You never said what ANY kinds are. Specifics. Tell us what are and are not kinds. List them.
How can you not know if anteaters are a kind if you have a workable definition of "kind?" Either they qualify or they don't. If you don't know, then your definition is useless.
Anteaters are definitely at least part of a kind, or if you prefer, they belong to a kind. You should have paid more attention to the Venn diagram lesson in grade school.

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