Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 180300 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

Since: Nov 07

St. James, NY

#175657 Jun 22, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
Well, not literally a monkey either, for crying out loud...digging the hole deeper aren't I.
Sometimes I find it helpful to take a breath a take a half second before hitting that Post Comment button.

“Merry Christmas”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#175658 Jun 22, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
Or, maybe you just found some humility or recall what childlike faith is all about!
I never had child-like faith. I always questioned what I was taught about the Bible and the answers most often came up short. It isn't arrogance to try and understand the world around us, but it is to ignore the facts and hide behind ignorance and fear while trying to disguise that ignorance and fear as something else.

“Merry Christmas”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#175659 Jun 22, 2014
One way or another wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that film transparent? Is it in color or black and white? How far away from the wall is the film? How far behind the film is the light? How far away is the wall from the film?
Did I not say that some of the light passes through? It doesn't matter if it is color or black and white in order for an image to be projected. So by way of an answer I get silly questions. Again, the distance of the light from film will affect how bright the image is to a point where it is too far back that it is no longer capable of projecting an image on the film. The distance from the wall will affect whether the image is focused. None of your questions indicate that you have an answer and I am surprised it took one of the worlds great thinkers so long to come up with such pointless and trivial questions.

Lets make this easy for you. A standard projector and a reel of Big Jake. The light has cast an image of John Wayne on the wall. How is it doing that?

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#175660 Jun 22, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
A person who chooses faith in God does not have to deny scientific evidence.
I think it is when you ridicule the Bible that we take literally ( because we believe that God created everything and therefore is not limited by the physical or natural realm we can see) that is when the problem begins.
Maybe God "smiles" when we take The Bible literally, when it makes no sense to our natural mind. Just like the childlike faith He says we must have to believe. If God is God He is not limited by time or space or our ability to understand (science, for example).
If God had wanted to teach us a lesson using flying pigs, God could make pigs fly! That is what choosing FAITH in a Creator gives us, childlike faith. You can't have childlike faith without humility, even though it is in The Creator of the Universe (and beyond). The creator of what we can see and understand, and what we cannot see nor understand.
If there is a God, and he created this universe, then HOW He did it is revealed in the clues He made available in the universe itself, and He gave us eyes and brains to figure it out. On the other hand, if you prefer to think of yourself as a silly kitten giving God warm fuzzies because you cutely insist on believing a bunch of fairy stories about Him that were written by some ancient semitic tribes...then go for it. Frankly to me your attitude shows no respect for God or the truth, you are an idolater of ancient scripts.

You do not have to deny science to believe in God, but you have to deny scientific evidence to believe in ancient Biblical fairy stories as anything more than allegories.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#175661 Jun 22, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't need apologetics or invented stories to know the difference between the Israelites and Al Qaeda. Nor, do either of us know how God will ultimately judge any individual.
And, again, you have to go back to the Old covenant/Old Testament to justify your arrogance toward God. Those were ancient times , ancient customs, Old Covenant ways of dealing with blasphemy, idolatry, immorality, etc. Today, we need to remember the and appreciate the Old and understand how it applies to the New. But, we have also chosen to accept Jesus Christ as the one who came to Earth in the form of a man so that we could understand the true nature of a God.
If you don't choose to believe in Christ, then what you say makes sense. I do choose to believe that Christ was who He said He was. Therefore I see god the way Jesus showed Him to be. Compare the Quran and the New Testament. End of story! Peace!
Nobody here is really arguing about the New Testament. It makes a bunch of claims that you either believe or do not, with little bearing on the conclusions of science.

The Old Testament is a different story, specifically Genesis, whose myths directly conflict with the evidence of the world around us.

As for things being different in that time, its a modern arrogance and conceit in the way you claim it. The life of a human being was just as real then as now. Murdering a man then forcibly taking his wife or daughter as property may have been more common then, but we are not talking about what is common, we are talking about what is moral and what you think God actually demanded that these tribesmen should do in His name!!! Because THEY wrote a book claiming it! No, I would say that the ancient Israelites and the Taliban are pretty similar creatures, and both evidently believe(d) they were doing God's work at His command, and have the scriptures to "prove" it.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#175662 Jun 22, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe God "smiles" when we take The Bible literally, when it makes no sense to our natural mind. Just like the childlike faith He says we must have to believe.
And what if was NOT God who claimed we need childlike faith to overcome the deficiencies in these stories? What if GOD did not say that only fools question His existence?

What if, in fact, these were the typical logic loops that Cults usually install in their belief system to prevent their followers from questioning them? Its so much easier than dealing with the questions, right? You do not have to consider anything that a skeptic says. You just have to call him a fool, and arrogant, because according to your magic book, GOD said that they must be arrogant fools. Don't ask these questions, go back to childlike faith.

The words of the Lord and Master and Creator of the Universe? Seriously? You can honestly believe that, or is this more of your childish, sorry, "childlike", faith talking?

Sounds more like the writers of the Bible unable to defend their foolish claims with reason.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#175663 Jun 23, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Do you think it would be a different image if I used film with different pictures on it? If I run images of some dude vomiting backwards do you think it will be funny to see him sucking it back up? Do you have any answer to my query?
Think about it Jimbo. The image is on the film and the light is hitting the film. Some of it is reflected, some absorbed and some transmitted. From all that you get the image on the wall. How did it get there?
Dan, it makes no sense to answer the questions of a troubled mind.
Your answers do not enter a brain with their faculties in a decent fashion, they end up in a pepper mill where they all are ground and pulverized into unrecognisable kibbles BEFORE they enter the equally malfunctioning processing unit, where they are interpreted as salt grains. Then he concludes "see, what a shit, I asked them about pepper corns and I get salt grains" and he turns on his tape-recorder and you are back to level NULL.

I thought, "don't answer troubled minds, ASK them to back up their own stuff" in the vain hope that this will cause some dissonance in his head to reset it by itself. Unfortunately he doesn't answer those, he systematically dodging them.

That closes the case.
Since then I find it rather IMPROPER to keep on stirring the fire.
So now and then I just write "go and seek help".
I really mean that, it is not rhetorical.
One way or another

United States

#175664 Jun 23, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Did I not say that some of the light passes through? It doesn't matter if it is color or black and white in order for an image to be projected. So by way of an answer I get silly questions. Again, the distance of the light from film will affect how bright the image is to a point where it is too far back that it is no longer capable of projecting an image on the film. The distance from the wall will affect whether the image is focused. None of your questions indicate that you have an answer and I am surprised it took one of the worlds great thinkers so long to come up with such pointless and trivial questions.
Lets make this easy for you. A standard projector and a reel of Big Jake. The light has cast an image of John Wayne on the wall. How is it doing that?
Everything depends on everything else just as everyone depends on everyone else. EDEE

That is why Einstein was only partially correct in his assessment of gravity and that is why scientists are on the run wrong track when they claim that greenhouse gases are causing so much destruction today.
TurkanaBoy

Since: May 14

the Earth Clod

#175665 Jun 23, 2014
One way or another wrote:
<quoted text>
Everything depends on everything else just as everyone depends on everyone else. EDEE
That is why Einstein was only partially correct in his assessment of gravity and that is why scientists are on the run wrong track when they claim that greenhouse gases are causing so much destruction today.
See, Dan? Told you.
YOU talked about light properties, ad HE answers "everything depends on everything that's why Einstein got it wrong on gravity and why consequently greenhouse gas is not causing destruction today". In THAT order and coherence.

You provided him pepper corns, he ground it to salt grains and started to talk about sugar (because salt and sugar grains are both white).

GOOD LUCK with him.
NEVER ARGUE with drunk or stupid.

“Merry Christmas”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#175666 Jun 23, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
Dan, it makes no sense to answer the questions of a troubled mind.
Your answers do not enter a brain with their faculties in a decent fashion, they end up in a pepper mill where they all are ground and pulverized into unrecognisable kibbles BEFORE they enter the equally malfunctioning processing unit, where they are interpreted as salt grains. Then he concludes "see, what a shit, I asked them about pepper corns and I get salt grains" and he turns on his tape-recorder and you are back to level NULL.
I thought, "don't answer troubled minds, ASK them to back up their own stuff" in the vain hope that this will cause some dissonance in his head to reset it by itself. Unfortunately he doesn't answer those, he systematically dodging them.
That closes the case.
Since then I find it rather IMPROPER to keep on stirring the fire.
So now and then I just write "go and seek help".
I really mean that, it is not rhetorical.
I agree completely and anymore I usually treat Jimbo as off limits, but I was reading one of his posts and wondered how he would handle the question of movie film. He seems to be getting progressively worse, but he isn't completely unaware. He will no doubt respond about how you and I are talking about him and as you say, he shows deliberate intent in dodging things he doesn't like. I actually feel bad for the guy. He does seem interested in science, but it is obvious he has neither the education nor the clarity of mind to have any meaningful discourse.

I and others post similar comments to him, but like everything else, it is ignored. With regards to science, debating someone like Jimbo is counter productive, but I often wonder if completely ignoring a person so lost yet hungry for attention and recognition is better or worse.

Anyway, I note your point and agree while considering the fact that this is an open forum and Jimbo is as available for response as anyone. That he is more profoundly troubled by what probably is a concrete and diagnosable, if not easily treatable, problem, urges limits to responding, but I don't see it as completely precluding me from response. I also don't expect any serious reply.

Bottom line is that he needs help. He should seek help. But I don't think, borrowing direct intervention from someone that can make that happen, he will go of his own accord.

I like the pepper mill metaphor. It is very apt in regards to a number of the anti-science crowd and FFC's on this forum. I seems you and I agree that there is a difference between those that end up with a pepper mill through no choice of their own or those that seek out a pepper mill even when they have the faculties to avoid it.
Ima Bach

Knoxville, TN

#175667 Jun 23, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
If there is a God, and he created this universe, then HOW He did it is revealed in the clues He made available in the universe itself, and He gave us eyes and brains to figure it out. On the other hand, if you prefer to think of yourself as a silly kitten giving God warm fuzzies because you cutely insist on believing a bunch of fairy stories about Him that were written by some ancient semitic tribes...then go for it. Frankly to me your attitude shows no respect for God or the truth, you are an idolater of ancient scripts.
You do not have to deny science to believe in God, but you have to deny scientific evidence to believe in ancient Biblical fairy stories as anything more than allegories.
What I don't understand in the Bible, I don't make fun of. I don't pick and choose what I will believe. Jesus spoke in parables and if God used allegories that required simple faith on our part to accept and not question Who am I to question.
Even the most brilliant minds a few hundred years ago would not have had your evidence and technology you have today.
Can you imagine a message from GOD explaining evolution? Or the biology etc. that would explain our physical bodies and how our minds (brains) work to control our physical bodies
What I heard in Sunday School as a child to what I believe today, my faith tells me that God entered something called time ( or began time as we know it) and God created MAN in His image with a body, mind, AND SPIRIT. For a specific purpose and with ultimate victory of good over evil.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#175668 Jun 23, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't know who Ken and Co are. But no quandary here. You see the belief that there is an all-knowing, all-powerful Creator of the universe is very liberating. I don't have to concern myself with what you think of me or what "Ken and Co" think of me. And, it is not my place to judge them or you.
And this isn't judging?
Ima Bach wrote:
Of course people pray who don't truly believe. Unless they have reached a point of blaspheming God to the point they can no longer feel the need or desire to pray,
How do you know that some people who pray do or do not believe? Seems rather judgmental to me.
Ima Bach wrote:
None of us are even close to being perfect, and we all make many of the same mistakes in life. Lots could be said and questioned about why some seem to have it easier than others...but, if you think about it, many who have faced the greatest trials and hardship have turned out to be the most compassionate and giving. There are as many stories and as many reasons and as many excuses as there are humans who have ever lived.
Not sure what this has to do with anything under discussion.
Ima Bach wrote:
Are you perfect?
Of course not.
Ima Bach wrote:
If not, why do you judge me so harshly?
I'm not trying to be harsh. I just find your beliefs to be very selective and, at times, naive.

“Merry Christmas”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#175669 Jun 23, 2014
TurkanaBoy wrote:
<quoted text>
See, Dan? Told you.
YOU talked about light properties, ad HE answers "everything depends on everything that's why Einstein got it wrong on gravity and why consequently greenhouse gas is not causing destruction today". In THAT order and coherence.
You provided him pepper corns, he ground it to salt grains and started to talk about sugar (because salt and sugar grains are both white).
GOOD LUCK with him.
NEVER ARGUE with drunk or stupid.
I know he what I was going to get. I was just curious to see how long it would take and in what form it would come. He is a salad bowl of mixed ideas, limited understanding, need for attention and all dressed in a mental illness. As I say, I normally do not engage Jimbo as you may note from the very limited number of posts I have made to him over the last several months, but his points about light brought to mind film and I wanted to see what kind of response he would give.

There is some insight to be gained from Jimbo regarding the minds of those embrace conspiracy thinking as an explanation of the world around us. That such thinking and thinkers are growing in number and actually applying this thinking to real world issues is very troubling to me. The pattern is very much what you see with Jimbo. No realization of the thinkers own limitations. Assembling a hodgepodge of disjointed and unrelated facts and trying to connect them to a significant event. Misunderstanding of these facts. Weaving them into a story that is immediately or eventually accepted by the thinker without any critical thought at all. Publishing (in the shouting on street corners sense) these facts without any external review. All this is happening more frequently and being absorbed and accepted by even the more educated among us as real. Scary shit in my opinion.

I had a recent conversation with an old college friend. He made a comment about the "birther movement" and President Obama's birth records. His comment was around how anyone could miss the use of "African American" in the published records when that term wasn't coined at the time of Obama's birth. He had heard this in the media and accepted it without review, probably because it resonated with his political views and that was a fact for him. He didn't bother to look for himself and find that "African American" is nowhere to be found on the record.

I am concerned that we are now giving too much credence to unqualified, probably mentally ill people, spouting whatever nonsense that rambles through their heads. As a nation and as a world we are switching paradigms and seeking guidance from a minority that has no guidance.

Sorry, a long winded response to your very accurate point.

“Merry Christmas”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#175670 Jun 23, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
What I don't understand in the Bible, I don't make fun of. I don't pick and choose what I will believe. Jesus spoke in parables and if God used allegories that required simple faith on our part to accept and not question Who am I to question.
Even the most brilliant minds a few hundred years ago would not have had your evidence and technology you have today.
Can you imagine a message from GOD explaining evolution? Or the biology etc. that would explain our physical bodies and how our minds (brains) work to control our physical bodies
What I heard in Sunday School as a child to what I believe today, my faith tells me that God entered something called time ( or began time as we know it) and God created MAN in His image with a body, mind, AND SPIRIT. For a specific purpose and with ultimate victory of good over evil.
The components of an allegory or a parable are not intended to be taken literally. It is the message that it conveys for us to receive that is important. Do you really think that Christ tried to stuff an actual camel through the eye of a real needle?

You can imagine anything you care to imagine. Maybe the message is coming to you in the form of science. What if ignoring that message puts you against what you believe? Since you don't question, I guess you may never know.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#175671 Jun 23, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
A person who chooses faith in God does not have to deny scientific evidence.
I think it is when you ridicule the Bible that we take literally ( because we believe that God created everything and therefore is not limited by the physical or natural realm we can see) that is when the problem begins.
Maybe God "smiles" when we take The Bible literally, when it makes no sense to our natural mind. Just like the childlike faith He says we must have to believe. If God is God He is not limited by time or space or our ability to understand (science, for example).
If God had wanted to teach us a lesson using flying pigs, God could make pigs fly! That is what choosing FAITH in a Creator gives us, childlike faith. You can't have childlike faith without humility, even though it is in The Creator of the Universe (and beyond). The creator of what we can see and understand, and what we cannot see nor understand.
If ifs and buts were candy and nuts....
Rationalization is bad enough when it is well done. This is not well done.
Literalicy is not mandated nor acceptable to true Christians.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#175672 Jun 23, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't need apologetics or invented stories to know the difference between the Israelites and Al Qaeda. Nor, do either of us know how God will ultimately judge any individual.
And, again, you have to go back to the Old covenant/Old Testament to justify your arrogance toward God. Those were ancient times , ancient customs, Old Covenant ways of dealing with blasphemy, idolatry, immorality, etc. Today, we need to remember the and appreciate the Old and understand how it applies to the New. But, we have also chosen to accept Jesus Christ as the one who came to Earth in the form of a man so that we could understand the true nature of a God.
If you don't choose to believe in Christ, then what you say makes sense. I do choose to believe that Christ was who He said He was. Therefore I see god the way Jesus showed Him to be. Compare the Quran and the New Testament. End of story! Peace!

This is a fairly common pseudo-christian misunderstanding: that we have the new deal and are not fully under the old deal. Even a cursory reading of your Bible (without being indoctrinated by a particular religious system) would clear this up. Reflect on the words of Jesus and believe what he said. He was (and is) the direct source. His words on the law stand to this day regardless of the pablum written later for the 'Greek' masses.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#175673 Jun 23, 2014
One way or another wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that film transparent? Is it in color or black and white? How far away from the wall is the film? How far behind the film is the light? How far away is the wall from the film?

Not relevant based on your own misunderstanding nor to the point being made.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#175674 Jun 23, 2014
Ima Bach wrote:
<quoted text>
A person who chooses faith in God does not have to deny scientific evidence.
I think it is when you ridicule the Bible that we take literally ( because we believe that God created everything and therefore is not limited by the physical or natural realm we can see) that is when the problem begins.
Maybe God "smiles" when we take The Bible literally, when it makes no sense to our natural mind. Just like the childlike faith He says we must have to believe. If God is God He is not limited by time or space or our ability to understand (science, for example).
If God had wanted to teach us a lesson using flying pigs, God could make pigs fly! That is what choosing FAITH in a Creator gives us, childlike faith. You can't have childlike faith without humility, even though it is in The Creator of the Universe (and beyond). The creator of what we can see and understand, and what we cannot see nor understand.
So since the spiritual world has no evidence in the physical world, it can be or demand of us anything you want it to. IC .... interesting .... not!

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#175675 Jun 23, 2014
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
If there is a God, and he created this universe, then HOW He did it is revealed in the clues He made available in the universe itself, and He gave us eyes and brains to figure it out. On the other hand, if you prefer to think of yourself as a silly kitten giving God warm fuzzies because you cutely insist on believing a bunch of fairy stories about Him that were written by some ancient semitic tribes...then go for it. Frankly to me your attitude shows no respect for God or the truth, you are an idolater of ancient scripts.
You do not have to deny science to believe in God, but you have to deny scientific evidence to believe in ancient Biblical fairy stories as anything more than allegories.
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."

Thomas Jefferson
Ima Bach

Knoxville, TN

#175676 Jun 23, 2014
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
And this isn't judging?
<quoted text>
How do you know that some people who pray do or do not believe? Seems rather judgmental to me.
<quoted text>
Not sure what this has to do with anything under discussion.
<quoted text>
Of course not.
<quoted text>
I'm not trying to be harsh. I just find your beliefs to be very selective and, at times, naive.
Is there a difference between naivety and childlike faith?
Everyone who prays does not pray to the same entity.
Beliefs must be selective when it comes to faith.
I'd love more knowledge and understanding of science. What little I do know, I find fascinating. And I admire and respect scientists who do not believe in a creator and do not ridicule those who do.

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