Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 180369 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#157486 Nov 3, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
And it seems to me that the ideal is to maximise the capacity for people to exercise their own will, balanced with the minimum necessary restrictions that allow a society to function and thrive.
As with so many complex system, the greatest potential lies on the edge of chaos...without falling into it.

Here it is interesting the sociological/cultural differences people have. In the west we are so individual based. In Asia and Africa the prevailing attitude is one of community over individual concerns.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#157487 Nov 3, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
That is more of a restrained freedom or the basis for civilization .... which I don't think should be considered a bad thing.
As for being free despite my circumstances ... I could also convince myself that I am a bunny rabbit despite evidence to the contrary. What would that mean?

A different definition of free was being used than you are using. Certainly a slave can be free in his mind even if his body is in shackles. If he denies that his body is not free then your bunny rabbit scenario comes into play.

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#157488 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
A different definition of free was being used than you are using. Certainly a slave can be free in his mind even if his body is in shackles. If he denies that his body is not free then your bunny rabbit scenario comes into play.
Once the slave has accepted the inevitability of his continued enslavement, he is not free by my understanding. He need not be in actual confinement or real shackles to be so enslaved.

When the mind is free, the body will follow, given the first opportunity.

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#157489 Nov 3, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
I think that is called "self delusion".
Though I lean in the toward the same observation as you have made, I also think there is a very thin line between self delusion and transcending circumstances. One bleeds into the other. It's not always easy to tell which is the most and which is the least.

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#157490 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think denial or delusion is ever freeing.
People are held in the grip of cults by social-psychological reasons. Real freedom in not found in religious associations, even what might be considered pro-social ones. That is not to say the religion cannot be an aid or path to liberation. But merely being a rank and file member offers nothing but psychological satisfaction of the most mundane sort.
/opinion
I think that all associations are equal, religious, political and conceptual. Psychological satisfaction can be both of the highest order and most mundane. We tend to observe others as being deluded when their delusions do not fall in line with our own delusions.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#157491 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
In what way? It is not a denial of the circumstances nor is there a belief that they are ideal.
It is the difference between pain and suffering. No one would choose pain nor is it wise to deny it. Suffering, however, is optional.
It is denial of the fact one is not free to excersize their own will.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#157492 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
A different definition of free was being used than you are using. Certainly a slave can be free in his mind even if his body is in shackles. If he denies that his body is not free then your bunny rabbit scenario comes into play.
Any mind is free to be as deluded as it wishes.

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#157493 Nov 3, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Once the slave has accepted the inevitability of his continued enslavement, he is not free by my understanding. He need not be in actual confinement or real shackles to be so enslaved.
When the mind is free, the body will follow, given the first opportunity.
Yes I must break free of Gravity!
Then I will be a freeman!:)>

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#157494 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
A different definition of free was being used than you are using. Certainly a slave can be free in his mind even if his body is in shackles. If he denies that his body is not free then your bunny rabbit scenario comes into play.
Complete freedom is answering to no one. You(we) have to get permission to drive, work, marry etc etc in the form of a license.

We are never free. Freedom is mentally and physically. Freedom of the mind is imagination and even though imagination can take you any where, in reality you are not there.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#157495 Nov 3, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Once the slave has accepted the inevitability of his continued enslavement, he is not free by my understanding. He need not be in actual confinement or real shackles to be so enslaved.
When the mind is free, the body will follow, given the first opportunity.

So freedom is mental first, then physical?

When the mind is free, physical freedom is still desirable, to be sure.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#157496 Nov 3, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Yes I must break free of Gravity!
Then I will be a freeman!:)>
He did have a conditional statement at the end of his claim. In many ways we are "free from gravity" today. Or at least more free than we were in the past. Almost all of us here have flown in a plane. Something that was "impossible" a mere 150 years ago. A very few of us have gone into space, this does not include me. It is even possible to make a rocket powerful enough to escape the gravitational pull of our Earth forever, and perhaps even that of the Sun, though the astronaut would be long dead before he had escaped the influence of the Sun.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#157497 Nov 3, 2013
appleboy wrote:
<quoted text>
I think that all associations are equal, religious, political and conceptual. Psychological satisfaction can be both of the highest order and most mundane. We tend to observe others as being deluded when their delusions do not fall in line with our own delusions.

I don't think I agree that all associations are equal. I associate myself as a member of the human race. I think that is a better association than associating with the KKK, for examples. There are certainly, as you point out, different levels and types of psychological satisfaction. Your point, if I understand you, is that all associations have the capacity to be self reinforcing and controlling to it's associates. Correct me if I am off base on this.

There are two valid reasons to hold a belief: Evidence or the collective beliefs of others. The later is only valid to the extent it conforms to the first. We have neither the time nor the need to question everything ourselves so we all have some false beliefs. These false beliefs only become delusions when one has attachment to them in spite of the evidence. Lacking contradictory evidence it is reasonable to follow the crowd as they are right about enough to make survival and even thriving more likely.

So there is some difference between how we, myself included, use the word delusion and what it actually means.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#157498 Nov 3, 2013
appleboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Though I lean in the toward the same observation as you have made, I also think there is a very thin line between self delusion and transcending circumstances. One bleeds into the other. It's not always easy to tell which is the most and which is the least.

If one is trapped in a bad situation is it better to accept it or to try to escape it at all costs?



Is that the answer you would give to a slave, an abused wife and a maximum security inmate convicted of multiple murders?

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#157499 Nov 3, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Any mind is free to be as deluded as it wishes.

LOL.

Delusion may not be a choice. There is some choice in maintaining a delusion or delusional system.

The same principles that apply to cognitive dissonance theory in other realms also apply here.

CL vs. CL(alt)

If only logic and evidence were used to make decisions then humans would have fewer delusions. But choices have consiquences.

As one JW said at a conference once said "I would rather be wrong and be inside [the JW] than be outside."

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#157500 Nov 3, 2013
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
Complete freedom is answering to no one. You(we) have to get permission to drive, work, marry etc etc in the form of a license.
We are never free. Freedom is mentally and physically. Freedom of the mind is imagination and even though imagination can take you any where, in reality you are not there.

I will get to work having the word removed from all dictionaries.

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#157501 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think I agree that all associations are equal. I associate myself as a member of the human race. I think that is a better association than associating with the KKK, for examples. There are certainly, as you point out, different levels and types of psychological satisfaction. Your point, if I understand you, is that all associations have the capacity to be self reinforcing and controlling to it's associates. Correct me if I am off base on this.
There are two valid reasons to hold a belief: Evidence or the collective beliefs of others. The later is only valid to the extent it conforms to the first. We have neither the time nor the need to question everything ourselves so we all have some false beliefs. These false beliefs only become delusions when one has attachment to them in spite of the evidence. Lacking contradictory evidence it is reasonable to follow the crowd as they are right about enough to make survival and even thriving more likely.
So there is some difference between how we, myself included, use the word delusion and what it actually means.
I'd have to clarify, that any association that allows us to make a CHOICE is potentially equal. We do not choose to be human, we just are. But we may choose to join or opt out of the KKK or a political party, or a religion, or a conceptual school of thought. And I would agree generally with you that we make these decisions partly because we don't have the time or feel the need to question everything ourselves. But all of those choices have the potential of making us obedient subjects of The Lord Of The Flies.

I remember growing up in a small town in Wisconsin. The prevalent attitudes in that town concerning race, religion, sexuality, etc. were attitudes of that time. It would be difficult for individuals in that time to question those attitudes because they were so prevalent. People still had the choice to opt out of those delusions, but few did. It took a revolution of social ideas during the 60's and 70's to make most people aware that the old ideas were delusional.

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#157502 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
If one is trapped in a bad situation is it better to accept it or to try to escape it at all costs?
Is that the answer you would give to a slave, an abused wife and a maximum security inmate convicted of multiple murders?
I'd say that it is SOMETIMES better to accept a bad situation than try to escape it.

I talked with a friend a few days ago about another friend who had been very physically active for most of her life. In her last few years she developed a lung condition that made her slow down. She could have extended her life much more by doing as much exercise as possible, but instead she just quit trying. My view is that, for her values, she did the right thing by quitting, accepting that her life was worth living as an active person, but not so much worth living as a couch potato.

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#157503 Nov 3, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> Yes I must break free of Gravity!
Then I will be a freeman!:)>
I don't know if you want to break free of gravity and I don't think it would make a difference on the freedom I am talking about.

If you break free of gravity, then you lose the freedom of being attracted by gravity.

“Do not bend, fold, staple or”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

mutilate. Point down range.

#157504 Nov 3, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
So freedom is mental first, then physical?
When the mind is free, physical freedom is still desirable, to be sure.
I think it has to be mental first, but physical freedom is desirable, yes.

If freedom is the ability to think, communicate and act as we want, then it has to start with the mind.

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#157505 Nov 3, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I don't know if you want to break free of gravity and I don't think it would make a difference on the freedom I am talking about.
If you break free of gravity, then you lose the freedom of being attracted by gravity.

Yeah but then I could fly like Superman!:) lol

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