Yes, I was looking for the punch line too. I hope someone eventually comes up with a good oneliner for it.<quoted text>
I thought you were starting to tell a joke.
Should evolution be taught in high school?
Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...
"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand." Full Story
“Don't get me started” Since: Jul 09 4,907 Minneapolis 
#155850
Oct 2, 2013

“I am Sisyphus” Since: Nov 07 51,298 Location hidden 
#155851
Oct 2, 2013
Interesting. Nice dinner conversation topic. But what relationship to the chimera topic? 
“Think&Care” Since: Oct 07 22,212 Location hidden 
#155852
Oct 2, 2013
You just got to love the 'Belly Button Biodiversity Project'! 
“I am Sisyphus” Since: Nov 07 51,298 Location hidden 
#155853
Oct 2, 2013
To put this in laymans terms to test my understanding. Essentially, even if you look at a mountain from a number of different perspectives you still don't get a comprehensive view (understanding) of the mountain. And since most of nature consists of mountains (in this metaphor. or literally nonequilibrium thermodynamics) then we are left with limited understanding of how these systems work in real life. So, applying a single formula as UC is attempting to do is really trying to fit a hypercube "peg" into a nsphere "hole". 4th Dimensionally speaking, of course. 
Since: Aug 07 12,216 
#155854
Oct 2, 2013
No Chimney. You math is wrong. And you are using the wrong application of entropy. The formula does not consider any specific quantity of heat its calculation, Boltzmann's entropy is a function of the constant K *(Do you know what a constant is? It's a fixed value used in a formula.), log, and the number of equivalent microstates. We are calculating the change in entropy, not K or its dimensions. Botlzmann's Entropy formula DOES NOT calculate J/K anything! It calculates S, Entropy! This is Boltzmann's entropy. Again, "This postulate, which is known as Boltzmann's principle, may be regarded as the foundation of statistical mechanics, which describes thermodynamic systems using the statistical behaviour of its constituents. It turns out that S is itself a thermodynamic property, just like E or V. Therefore, it acts as a link between the microscopic world and the macroscopic." The number, Boltzmann's constant is used in the Boltzmann's formula but it doesn't have any dimensional use  it is just a constant; just a number to be plugged in. I think you know this. This is just your attempt to create confusion and doubt so nobody will believe that entropy affects things like everything in nature including evolution! 
“I am Sisyphus” Since: Nov 07 51,298 Location hidden 
#155855
Oct 2, 2013
http://books.google.com/books... "The general struggle for existence of animate beings is not a struggle for raw materials – these, for organisms, are air, water and soil, all abundantly available – nor for energy which exists in plenty in any body in the form of heat, but a struggle for [negative] entropy, which becomes available through the transition of energy from the hot sun to the cold earth." Ludwig Boltzmann Gibbs Free energy rules. 
“Think&Care” Since: Oct 07 22,212 Location hidden 
#155856
Oct 2, 2013
No, he is actually correct here. You are the one that is applying the equations incorrectly. *sigh* The Boltzmann constant has units J/K, so the entropy also has such units. Next, if you want to use the microcononical ensemble, which is appropriate for the entropy representation, you need to have you main variables be the total energy U, the volume V, and the number of particles N. Also, these need to stay constant during your calculations. In this representation, the temperature, T is given by 1/T=dS/dU. In other words, an increase of internal energy by dU produces an increase of entropy of dU/T. And it is a dimensional constant with dimensions J/K. So the entropy will have units J/K. This is good because it gives the link between the statistical mechanics variable W (or M, or Omega) and quantities like temperature, pressure, and energy that we can actually measure. The confusion isn't Chimney's. It is yours. So, now, how exactly do you calculate the number of microstates to get your conclusions? 
“Think&Care” Since: Oct 07 22,212 Location hidden 
#155857
Oct 2, 2013
This analogy works to some extent, yes. Well, it is even worse because UC doesn't even apply that formula correctly. he starts out fine, but then goes rapidly off the deep end. 
Since: Aug 07 12,216 
#155858
Oct 2, 2013
It's not an actual calculation of each atom in a house. If something is arranged in a very specific particular order it is going to have fewer equivalent microstates than something that is just at random. I supposed you need a much simpler example to put actual numbers on it. But the author, Creager, gives several examples with heating and cooling and the simplest case, and also the construction materials. It works with just about any thing you can think of. And you guys still have not shown where any of the math is wrong and give no examples were it fails. You know what this means, right? The initial energy applied to genomes is causing the entropy of the genome to increase confirming Sanford. But we already knew that. 
Since: Mar 12 12,280 Dubai, UAE 
#155859
Oct 2, 2013
Heheh. K is not "a constant". Its a variable, temperature, HELD constant in isothermic and equilibrium examples. And in the case of Boltzmann's formula, where the system is at EQUILIBRIUM, then of course temperature is not changing. But its a variable sitting at a particular level, eg 298 K, NOT a physical constant, which is a different beast entirely. Boltzmann's constant on the other hand IS an actual physical constant, always, expressed in the UNITS J/K and it was added to provide the link between number of microstates (a pure number) and ENTROPY, which is a quantity based on J/K. That is WHY Boltzmann added it! Its a conversion factor turning "number of microstates" into "quantity of entropy", expressed as J/K. S (entropy) IS J/K, and its explained statistically by the fact that a high entropy state is a probabilistically more common state than a low entropy one. Why? Because there are far more possible microstates of the system that make no difference to the macrostate in high entropy than in low entropy. But after all that, its STILL true that adding energy to a system  no matter how "ordered" the energy is, can not reduce the system's entropy. Go ahead, hold K (temperature) constant. That can ONLY happen 1. if the energy transformation is perfect (no gain or loss of entropy) OR 2. the heat energy created is being carried off as fast as its generated (heat is created but siphoned off out of the system). Now we get to the crunch. You can hold entropy constant by siphoning off the waste heat out of the system. You can also LOWER entropy by doing the same thing. And ONLY by doing that. To reduce entropy, you have to suck some energy out of the system. Creager does not even consider the energy leaving the system. He talks about the "entropy of the energy applied" which is nonsense, both in the mangling of units and in the fact that a net gain in energy cannot ever lower total entropy. Boltzmann, Clausius, makes no difference in this respect. 
“ The Lord of delirious minds.” Since: Dec 10 30,973 Location hidden 
#155860
Oct 2, 2013
Not much really it's just what I said though, that we really are a collection of organisms in a symbiont and parasitical relationships. Though considered a single organism. I was wrong however saying a chimera is two organisms , it is however a single organism with the parts of more than one merged together in a symbiont relationship. But the fact humans and all animal life are really a collection of different ones , in symbiosis is also a truth. We cant live without a collection of bacterias and enzymes, etc. But we also have parasitical creatures we don't really need but they don't go away. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9049991 
Since: Aug 07 12,216 
#155861
Oct 2, 2013
No. That's why it is called Boltzmann's principle. We can apply it to statistics such as the tossing of dice. If we calculated the W of the dice toss, would it make sense to you to give the probability in J/K? Come on man! 
“I am Sisyphus” Since: Nov 07 51,298 Location hidden 
#155862
Oct 2, 2013
As the genome has been evolving and doing just fine for probably 2 billion years this issue seems comical. And you do know that an exploding house is in no way comparable to genomic evolution. And Sanford was already refuted before his book even hit the shelves. Modern science is very efficient. 
“ The Lord of delirious minds.” Since: Dec 10 30,973 Location hidden 
#155863
Oct 2, 2013
LOL grossology 
Since: Mar 12 12,280 Dubai, UAE 
#155864
Oct 2, 2013
Sorry, but the concept of "entropy of energy" used in thermodynamics is a basic violation of unit consistency, and all that follows in Creager's paper is pure nonsense because of that. That IS the math. In physics, equations always relate to units of something, not just pure numbers. A "unit inequality" is just as wrong as a numeric one. For example a brick cannot weigh five seconds and the distance to the sun cannot be 93 million tonnes per yen. You cannot stuff up with the units. You cannot have an entropy of energy because energy does not have a temperature and J/K requires a temperature (K!). And you have to understand that the most perfect possible application (addition) of energy cannot ever LOWER entropy, because there are no "negative Joules" and therefore J/K going down can only signal Joules of energy exiting the system, never entering it. Perhaps if I say it five more times this basic stuff will start to sink in. Then you may see why Creager is bunkum. 
Since: Aug 07 12,216 
#155865
Oct 2, 2013
Again, he is using Boltzmann's principle as applied to statistics. When will you realize this? Never I suppose. 
Since: Aug 07 12,216 
#155866
Oct 2, 2013
DO you get an answer in J/K when you calculate the probability of rolling a 6 sided die? 
Since: Sep 08 17,422 
#155867
Oct 2, 2013
Creationists quite often make this sort of mistake. They get outside of their specialty and they make a starting argument that is pure nonsense. For example the many "odds" arguments can almost always be debunked by showing that the presuppositions they are based upon are nonsense. At that point no more math is necessary. 
“Think&Care” Since: Oct 07 22,212 Location hidden 
#155868
Oct 2, 2013
If you want to apply the SLoT, then you need the thermodynamic entropy which has Boltzmann's constant. And the correspondence between this and Carnot's definition is Boltzmann's principle. As you say, come on man! 
“Think&Care” Since: Oct 07 22,212 Location hidden 
#155869
Oct 2, 2013
Boltzmann's principle is a principle in statistical mechanics. And that is part of physics. In particular, it relates the number of available microstates (W) to the thermodynamic entropy (S) by S=k*ln(W) where k is Boltzmann's constant. Because k has units of J/K, so does S, which is required to be the thermodynamic entropy. And if you want to apply the SLoT, then you need to be using the thermodynamic entropy. 
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