Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 | Posted by: Cash | Full story: www.scientificblogging.com

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

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#142584
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Human characteristic, I suppose, but isn't it interesting that to me you are the ones who seem to think they have all the answers for EVERYONE.
I definitely know it is not my responsibility to convince anyone to believe as I do. And, that is definitely not my goal!
Speaking for myself, and I think at least a few other Believers, we don't want to impose anything on anyone, or "guilt" anyone, or think we have any reason to feel superior to anyone.
I'm not interested in "religion." I am interested in not having to hide my faith or be treated as if I should be ashamed of myself because I have chosen faith over science for my "worldview."
One major problem with Topix and blogs, etc. is the lack of body language and voice inflection that could help us better understand one another.
I think there have been times when our comments are taken as sarcastic and critical of someone, when that is not our intention.
And we all obviously do, at times, intend to be sarcastic and critical. Then once we've been offended it is easy to become defensive.
I believe that anyone who enters into these conversation with people we don't have a clue about personally must be someone who like you "who enjoy hearing other viewpoints and engaging in stimulating and brisk discourse."
I suppose it is our passion for the issue that causes us to get a little testy at times. Stupid, idiot, moron is not helpful, but sometimes the name calling is good for a healthy laugh.
It's exactly the text-only medium that makes me demand that you define your terms, so we can all understand what you're talking about. Or, don't you care about us being able to understand what you're talking about? Do you speak just to hear yourself, or do you speak so that you can be heard and understood by others? Define "spirit." Define "spiritual." Define them without resorting to each other or themselves. Circular definitions are invalid.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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#142585
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I did make that up. I was pretty sure he was not in favor of honor killings. I was trying to turn the tables on LG because that is exactly what he does 90% of the time when he disagrees with something.
I find him the absolute worse for putting words in the mouths of others, so when someone not familiar with what has already been explained read his reply, they can come away with a total misrepresentation of what I originally said.
I think that is dishonest. And, yes I was being deliberately dishonest in that comment to LG. his tactic, not mine!
I appreciate your honesty.
Believer

Knoxville, TN

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#142586
Jul 17, 2013
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Are honor killings evil? Simple question. They either are, or they aren't. Which is it?
Yes ,of course honor killing is evil! Now you are going to tell me that God is evil because in the Old Testament God intended for some people to kill other people, animals, children even.

I don't understand that. And, yes, I do question some of the things in the Bible! I don't question that those things happened, I question why they happened. It
It seems very much like what goes on today, except since I am a Christian, I can rest in the fact that God did what He had to do to deal with evil ( maybe fighting evil with evil).

Now, as a Christian I see God in the person of Jesus. I BELIEVE (and there are historical records to support it), that it was God' s supernatural plan from the beginning to she'd his own blood, and die as a man, and come back to life in a way that would prove that He was who He claimed to be.

If you believe that those children were innocent bystanders in the sins of their mothers and fathers, but that to end the abominations committed by the parents, the children had to die as well ( or maybe the humane thing was a quick death for the children rather than being left with no adults to care for them)... If God is the one who created that life, and He has prepared a better place for that little spirit to exist then why should I question how God chose to accomplish His Will among His people.)

If you will notice the Judeo/Christian Faith does not condone honor killing or murder of any kind!
Is that enough information to answer you question, or would you like to hear more?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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#142587
Jul 17, 2013
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
See, Believer? Even batshit insane Jimbo recognizes that you're a liar.
I'm not so sure about that. If Jimbozo calls someone else a liar, I'd need a second opinion.
Believer

Knoxville, TN

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#142589
Jul 17, 2013
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
It's exactly the text-only medium that makes me demand that you define your terms, so we can all understand what you're talking about. Or, don't you care about us being able to understand what you're talking about? Do you speak just to hear yourself, or do you speak so that you can be heard and understood by others? Define "spirit." Define "spiritual." Define them without resorting to each other or themselves. Circular definitions are invalid.
So, you are telling me that you HONESTLY want to understand what I "am talking about."
Have you forgotten calling me an ignorant, naive, moron?
I would not waste my time trying to understand someone I considered an ignorant, naive, moron.
Are you being dishonest again?

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#142591
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes ,of course honor killing is evil! Now you are going to tell me that God is evil because in the Old Testament God intended for some people to kill other people, animals, children even.
I don't understand that. And, yes, I do question some of the things in the Bible! I don't question that those things happened, I question why they happened. It
It seems very much like what goes on today, except since I am a Christian, I can rest in the fact that God did what He had to do to deal with evil ( maybe fighting evil with evil).
Now, as a Christian I see God in the person of Jesus. I BELIEVE (and there are historical records to support it), that it was God' s supernatural plan from the beginning to she'd his own blood, and die as a man, and come back to life in a way that would prove that He was who He claimed to be.
If you believe that those children were innocent bystanders in the sins of their mothers and fathers, but that to end the abominations committed by the parents, the children had to die as well ( or maybe the humane thing was a quick death for the children rather than being left with no adults to care for them)... If God is the one who created that life, and He has prepared a better place for that little spirit to exist then why should I question how God chose to accomplish His Will among His people.)
Wow. Your all powerful, all-knowing god's only way of dealing with his perceived evil was to kill everyone including innocent children. And you're fine with that.

Sorry but my morality says that's flat out wrong.
Believer wrote:
If you will notice the Judeo/Christian Faith does not condone honor killing or murder of any kind!
I believe you just did.
Believer wrote:
Is that enough information to answer you question, or would you like to hear more?
We've heard it all before but do carry on.
Believer

Knoxville, TN

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#142593
Jul 17, 2013
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would we assume there's such a thing as "supernatural?"
I would not expect you to assume anything you don't already think you know.

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#142594
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes ,of course honor killing is evil!
That only took 3 days. Now, why are they evil when other cultures disagree with you? Why are YOU right and THEY wrong? Please construct your answer without resorting to logical fallacies.

By the way, if you think I'm dishonest, you don't know what dishonest is. I've broken bigger liars than you.

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#142595
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes ,of course honor killing is evil! Now you are going to tell me that God is evil because in the Old Testament God intended for some people to kill other people, animals, children even.
I don't understand that. And, yes, I do question some of the things in the Bible! I don't question that those things happened, I question why they happened. It
It seems very much like what goes on today, except since I am a Christian, I can rest in the fact that God did what He had to do to deal with evil ( maybe fighting evil with evil).
Now, as a Christian I see God in the person of Jesus. I BELIEVE (and there are historical records to support it), that it was God' s supernatural plan from the beginning to she'd his own blood, and die as a man, and come back to life in a way that would prove that He was who He claimed to be.
If you believe that those children were innocent bystanders in the sins of their mothers and fathers, but that to end the abominations committed by the parents, the children had to die as well ( or maybe the humane thing was a quick death for the children rather than being left with no adults to care for them)... If God is the one who created that life, and He has prepared a better place for that little spirit to exist then why should I question how God chose to accomplish His Will among His people.)
If you will notice the Judeo/Christian Faith does not condone honor killing or murder of any kind!
Is that enough information to answer you question, or would you like to hear more?
Look at all the words you put in my mouth. Liar AND hypocrite.

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#142597
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
So, you are telling me that you HONESTLY want to understand what I "am talking about."
Have you forgotten calling me an ignorant, naive, moron?
I would not waste my time trying to understand someone I considered an ignorant, naive, moron.
Are you being dishonest again?
You're ignorant about certain things. So am I. So is everyone. Calling you out on your ignorance is not an insult, unless you think yourself omniscient. Get over yourself.

Are you na´ve? Yes, about certain things. So what? Again, get over yourself.

Are you a moron? Frequently. So what? Get over yourself.

You think you know something worth knowing. If you don't make it understandable, then you're just preaching into the woods. If you think what you know is worthwhile, you have to put it in terms that anybody can understand. You have refused to do that thus far. I think it's because the second you define your terms, that makes you beholden to that definition, and if that definition can be invalidated, it weakens your position. The longer you refuse to define your terms, the more it shows that I'm right.
Believer

Knoxville, TN

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#142599
Jul 17, 2013
 
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. Your all powerful, all-knowing god's only way of dealing with his perceived evil was to kill everyone including innocent children. And you're fine with that.
Sorry but my morality says that's flat out wrong.
<quoted text>
I believe you just did.
<quoted text>
We've heard it all before but do carry on.
It is not your morality that concerns me. And I guess you did not understand that God dealt with sinful people and immorality differently before He came to die! We now live under the blood sacrifice and grace of Christ.
Even the Old Testament law forbade murder. You must try to understand that the Old Testament was written by people in a particular time and culture to people of many different lifestyles at that time.
It is impossible to stamp out Truth. Truth prevails and overcomes adversity.
Science continues to make great discoveries and new technology every day. But, science is not Truth!

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#142600
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
I would not expect you to assume anything you don't already think you know.
Still can't bring yourself to deal with the fundamentals, eh? You find it more comfortable arguing details. I want to argue the root, the basis of the ideas you claim to believe. Others might avoid shooting for the bullseye to try to get points around the edges. I'm not wasting my time. If you can't say what you believe and why, then we have no reason to take your arguments seriously. You need to be willing to subject your ideas to scrutiny. You need to be willing to test them by fire. Faith untested is meaningless. Are you willing to test your faith by putting your beliefs up for scrutiny? If so, define "spiritual." Define "spirit." Define "supernatural." Define "God."

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#142601
Jul 17, 2013
 
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Exactly. And it has been an education. In more ways than one.
Without a doubt.
Believer

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#142602
Jul 17, 2013
 

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LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
You're ignorant about certain things. So am I. So is everyone. Calling you out on your ignorance is not an insult, unless you think yourself omniscient. Get over yourself.
Are you na´ve? Yes, about certain things. So what? Again, get over yourself.
Are you a moron? Frequently. So what? Get over yourself.
You think you know something worth knowing. If you don't make it understandable, then you're just preaching into the woods. If you think what you know is worthwhile, you have to put it in terms that anybody can understand. You have refused to do that thus far. I think it's because the second you define your terms, that makes you beholden to that definition, and if that definition can be invalidated, it weakens your position. The longer you refuse to define your terms, the more it shows that I'm right.
As a believer I don't live by defining terms that would satisfy the curiosity of one who admits to being an ignorant, naive, moron. Although it was refreshing to see that you admit you can see your own faults as well as everyone else's!

You can't understand terms that don't make sense to you. Trying to make you understand something you can't grasp wit you mind of flesh and perceived intellect is like talking to a tree.

If my not defining my terms to your satisfaction proves you are right about anything tells me you aren't even close to being right about much of anything. And that is about as far away from scientifically proving anything as you could get.

Circular reasoning?
Believer

Knoxville, TN

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#142603
Jul 17, 2013
 
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Still can't bring yourself to deal with the fundamentals, eh? You find it more comfortable arguing details. I want to argue the root, the basis of the ideas you claim to believe. Others might avoid shooting for the bullseye to try to get points around the edges. I'm not wasting my time. If you can't say what you believe and why, then we have no reason to take your arguments seriously. You need to be willing to subject your ideas to scrutiny. You need to be willing to test them by fire. Faith untested is meaningless. Are you willing to test your faith by putting your beliefs up for scrutiny? If so, define "spiritual." Define "spirit." Define "supernatural." Define "God."
Two perpendicular lines will never meet!

“My DNA tastes like chicken”

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#142604
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Human characteristic, I suppose, but isn't it interesting that to me you are the ones who seem to think they have all the answers for EVERYONE.
I definitely know it is not my responsibility to convince anyone to believe as I do. And, that is definitely not my goal!
Speaking for myself, and I think at least a few other Believers, we don't want to impose anything on anyone, or "guilt" anyone, or think we have any reason to feel superior to anyone.
I'm not interested in "religion." I am interested in not having to hide my faith or be treated as if I should be ashamed of myself because I have chosen faith over science for my "worldview."
One major problem with Topix and blogs, etc. is the lack of body language and voice inflection that could help us better understand one another.
I think there have been times when our comments are taken as sarcastic and critical of someone, when that is not our intention.
And we all obviously do, at times, intend to be sarcastic and critical. Then once we've been offended it is easy to become defensive.
I believe that anyone who enters into these conversation with people we don't have a clue about personally must be someone who like you "who enjoy hearing other viewpoints and engaging in stimulating and brisk discourse."
I suppose it is our passion for the issue that causes us to get a little testy at times. Stupid, idiot, moron is not helpful, but sometimes the name calling is good for a healthy laugh.
We have answers based on facts or try to as much as possible. The facts are the same regardless of who you are, where you are from, how you grew up, what your religion, politics, or orgin is. Science is looking for answers in the real world and has a limited interest in religion at best. It is religion that crosses over into the realm of science most often to assert its preceived authority and not the other way around.

Isn't your goal to witness to us here on this thread. From your posts, I conclude that you consider anyone that supports science and accepts the theory of evolution to be an atheist. That is your faith. It is not the reality.

Growing up in a predominantly Protestant community, with socially conservative leanings, I never saw then nor have I since leaving there seen any Christian persecuted for their beliefs. Disagreed with sure, but not persecuted. That is a fiction created by the fundamentalists because fundamentalists like martyrs and popularizing that perception is good for the cause. It is a twisting of the fundamentalists efforts to force religion past the Constitution and into public institutions.

I wouldn't dismiss the appearance of what seem to be sarcastic or critical responses, but I agree there are certain limits to this form of communication. Some very creative means have been developed and employed to bridge some of the gaps.:)

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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#142605
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
It is not your morality that concerns me. And I guess you did not understand that God dealt with sinful people and immorality differently before He came to die! We now live under the blood sacrifice and grace of Christ.
Why the change of heart? Did god decide that his old ways of dealing with things were not the best? Please explain why an all-knowing god changed his mind.
Believer wrote:
Even the Old Testament law forbade murder. You must try to understand that the Old Testament was written by people in a particular time and culture to people of many different lifestyles at that time.
I thought it was written/inspired by god.{shrug}
Believer wrote:
It is impossible to stamp out Truth. Truth prevails and overcomes adversity.
Science continues to make great discoveries and new technology every day. But, science is not Truth!
Uh-huh. Your truth.

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#142606
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
As a believer I don't live by defining terms that would satisfy the curiosity of one who admits to being an ignorant, naive, moron. Although it was refreshing to see that you admit you can see your own faults as well as everyone else's!
So, you don't admit that you're ignorant of anything, nor that you're na´ve about anything, nor that you're ever a moron about anything. Look at how perfect you are. That's the Christian humility we've come to expect.
Believer wrote:
You can't understand terms that don't make sense to you.
I simply don't know what YOU mean by THOSE words. They are ambiguous words that various people use to mean various things. If you don't define such terms, you're relying on us to assume what you mean. If we assume one meaning and refute that meaning, you'll simply say that's not what you mean, and we're putting words in your mouth. Well, to avoid that, YOU need to define those words. Let's all get on the same page. Are you afraid of us understanding what you believe?
Believer wrote:
Trying to make you understand something you can't grasp wit you mind of flesh and perceived intellect is like talking to a tree.
So, you refuse to define your terms, and by doing so, you ensure that I can't understand, and then you condemn me for not understanding you. That seems totally fair. We define terms ALL THE TIME. Someone asks you to define a couple words, and you get your knickers in a twist. You don't want to communicate effectively. You just want to practice preaching and avoid subjecting your beliefs to scrutiny. Keep proving me right.
Believer wrote:
If my not defining my terms to your satisfaction proves you are right about anything tells me you aren't even close to being right about much of anything. And that is about as far away from scientifically proving anything as you could get.
Circular reasoning?
Weak.

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#142607
Jul 17, 2013
 
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Two perpendicular lines will never meet!
Define "spirit."
Define "spiritual."
Define "God."
Define "supernatural."

Without defining your terms, we can only address our assumptions of what you mean by these ambiguous terms. Do you want to be accurately understood, or do you want us to have to assume what you mean and be wrong about your beliefs? Does it matter to you whether we understand you properly, or do you just want this to be you preaching into the void? You can do the latter anywhere, and you don't need us to do it. If you DO care if we understand you properly, define your terms.

Or, keep proving that you don't want to subject your beliefs to scrutiny and continue avoiding my simple and reasonable requests.
Believer

Knoxville, TN

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#142609
Jul 17, 2013
 

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DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>We have answers based on facts or try to as much as possible. The facts are the same regardless of who you are, where you are from, how you grew up, what your religion, politics, or orgin is. Science is looking for answers in the real world and has a limited interest in religion at best. It is religion that crosses over into the realm of science most often to assert its preceived authority and not the other way around.
Isn't your goal to witness to us here on this thread. From your posts, I conclude that you consider anyone that supports science and accepts the theory of evolution to be an atheist. That is your faith. It is not the reality.
Growing up in a predominantly Protestant community, with socially conservative leanings, I never saw then nor have I since leaving there seen any Christian persecuted for their beliefs. Disagreed with sure, but not persecuted. That is a fiction created by the fundamentalists because fundamentalists like martyrs and popularizing that perception is good for the cause. It is a twisting of the fundamentalists efforts to force religion past the Constitution and into public institutions.
I wouldn't dismiss the appearance of what seem to be sarcastic or critical responses, but I agree there are certain limits to this form of communication. Some very creative means have been developed and employed to bridge some of the gaps.:)
No! I know you can believe in a god without it being the specific God of the Bible. There is a big difference. There is a difference in the Hindu God, the Islam God, the Gods of mythology and on and on.
Since you look to science for all of your answers it appears with no other definition of the God you believe in that Science may be your God. Science can be a God if you make it the source of all that you know and look to for answers. And I don't mean that in a derogatory or disrespectful way at all.
I choose what makes sense to me. You choose what makes sense to you. Personal responsibility.

Now you are probably thinking that I am not being responsible because I am not using my brain to decide what makes sense to my brain. Right?

I am not using my brain.(Be careful, I just left you a whopper of an opportunity to imply that makes me stupid. If you do that it makes you rude and unkind. Frankly, I'd rather be considered stupid.)

For some reason some of us can see the Easter Bunny leaving gifts on Easter morning as a made up fantasy, but see the account of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden as possible. Obviously, because we believe God to be GOD.

GOD did not make rabbits to lay eggs. That is a scientific fact. If you told me you had a rabbit that could lay an egg, I would not believe you.

If Moses (or whoever) wrote a story depicting God creating Adam that made its way into the Bible and has stood the test of ridicule yet believed by millions of rational, intelligent human beings over thousands of years, I think there must be something more going on here than can be discounted so easily because it doesn't make sense in our natural mind.

So, I realize what the Bible also teaches about man being body, mind, and spirit. And, I decide to believe God gave me a spirit and I begin to think that what might not be understood by my mind, might actually be possible with GOD.

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