Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 180388 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#142566 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
I know you guys wish I would just hop on over to the religion forums. This is so much more fun. Those religious people can be rude!
Understood. I've stuck my nose in those forums from time to time. Left quickly. Do you know Yellow Dog?
Believer wrote:
And, I think I already know most of them ( how they think). Even though I don't understand a lot of the technical stuff, and I do get my feelings hurt from time to time, you guys are a breath of fresh air!
If you need my advice or have any questions for me, I'm here for you. I'm usually napping from 2 to 4, dinner at 6:30, Jeopardy at 7:30, lights out by midnight.
Chill!
Noted.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#142567 Jul 17, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
One of the reasons I started reading and then posting on Topix was to learn.
Exactly. And it has been an education. In more ways than one.
Believer

Manchester, TN

#142568 Jul 17, 2013
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Oddly, I don't. I would argue that you serve a purpose, to me at least. If it wasn't for those like you and KAB on another thread, I wouldn't be exposed to the responses that address posters like you. One of the reasons I started reading and then posting on Topix was to learn. I have been told you can't because it is all a big pissing contest full of trolls who eliminate that possibility. While I don't disagree with that, and have joined in that to some degree, I find in between a lot of worthwhile information, new perspectives and answers I hadn't come to independently.
If it wasn't for the group that knows it all, wants to force their beliefs onto others and to rewrite history, I would be far less acquainted with a body of free thought and information that "true believers" largely ignore or don't understand. Perhaps it is recognized but denied. Purely religious threads belong in more appropriate places, but individual posters expressing their views have stimulated some brisk, but often useful discourse on this thread.
It is probably too much to expect and Dogen may consider me optimistic, but it may be that sometimes this information or a new perspective might bridge across to one of the "knows it all." It is a personal belief with little basis in fact.
Human characteristic, I suppose, but isn't it interesting that to me you are the ones who seem to think they have all the answers for EVERYONE.
I definitely know it is not my responsibility to convince anyone to believe as I do. And, that is definitely not my goal!
Speaking for myself, and I think at least a few other Believers, we don't want to impose anything on anyone, or "guilt" anyone, or think we have any reason to feel superior to anyone.
I'm not interested in "religion." I am interested in not having to hide my faith or be treated as if I should be ashamed of myself because I have chosen faith over science for my "worldview."

One major problem with Topix and blogs, etc. is the lack of body language and voice inflection that could help us better understand one another.
I think there have been times when our comments are taken as sarcastic and critical of someone, when that is not our intention.
And we all obviously do, at times, intend to be sarcastic and critical. Then once we've been offended it is easy to become defensive.
I believe that anyone who enters into these conversation with people we don't have a clue about personally must be someone who like you "who enjoy hearing other viewpoints and engaging in stimulating and brisk discourse."
I suppose it is our passion for the issue that causes us to get a little testy at times. Stupid, idiot, moron is not helpful, but sometimes the name calling is good for a healthy laugh.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#142569 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
I know you guys wish I would just hop on over to the religion forums. This is so much more fun. Those religious people can be rude!
I expect that. They are all pushing personal convictions with no empirical evidence to support one view over another. That is the problem with religious thought. Since there is no evidence, the final settlement is with guns.

You and I argue over whether a brick weighs 5kg or 10kg. Sooner or later, we find a scale and weigh the damned thing. Oh, it was 8kg. Both wrong, but one estimate was closer. End of argument.

That is why science is based on empirical evidence and that is the final authority on any question.

All you guys have are a bunch of old often contradictory texts that can tell you anything you want to hear. Men killed other men in arguments over the shape of Earth based on interpretation of these scriptures. Basing one's views on scriptures is a recipe for mindless destruction, no matter how sweet and pretty they might sound in your heart.
Believer

Manchester, TN

#142570 Jul 17, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Nah. You seem to be self-taught. LG asked you about honor killings. You replied...
<quoted text>
He never said it wasn't evil. You made that up. He asked you for your opinion. Which you seem unwilling to commit to.
Yes, I did make that up. I was pretty sure he was not in favor of honor killings. I was trying to turn the tables on LG because that is exactly what he does 90% of the time when he disagrees with something.
I find him the absolute worse for putting words in the mouths of others, so when someone not familiar with what has already been explained read his reply, they can come away with a total misrepresentation of what I originally said.
I think that is dishonest. And, yes I was being deliberately dishonest in that comment to LG. his tactic, not mine!

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142571 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
In God We Trust must have meant something very significant to the founders of our Country.
To compare trusting God to honor killing is a poor argument for the point you are trying to make.
Last time I looked our founding documents don't say anything about honor killing.
If you believe in honor killing, why don't you move to a place that practices it.
Are honor killings evil? Simple question. They either are, or they aren't. Which is it?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142572 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Human characteristic, I suppose, but isn't it interesting that to me you are the ones who seem to think they have all the answers for EVERYONE.
I definitely know it is not my responsibility to convince anyone to believe as I do. And, that is definitely not my goal!
Speaking for myself, and I think at least a few other Believers, we don't want to impose anything on anyone, or "guilt" anyone, or think we have any reason to feel superior to anyone.
I'm not interested in "religion." I am interested in not having to hide my faith or be treated as if I should be ashamed of myself because I have chosen faith over science for my "worldview."
One major problem with Topix and blogs, etc. is the lack of body language and voice inflection that could help us better understand one another.
I think there have been times when our comments are taken as sarcastic and critical of someone, when that is not our intention.
And we all obviously do, at times, intend to be sarcastic and critical. Then once we've been offended it is easy to become defensive.
I believe that anyone who enters into these conversation with people we don't have a clue about personally must be someone who like you "who enjoy hearing other viewpoints and engaging in stimulating and brisk discourse."
I suppose it is our passion for the issue that causes us to get a little testy at times. Stupid, idiot, moron is not helpful, but sometimes the name calling is good for a healthy laugh.
None of us has ever said, or even implied, we have all the answers. We have said that science is the most reliable method of explaining the world around us, but that's hardly the same thing.

As soon as resorting to magic and mysticism brings about useful advances in our understanding of reality, you'll begin to have a point. Let us know when that happens. Thanks in advance for nothing.
Believer

Manchester, TN

#142573 Jul 17, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I expect that. They are all pushing personal convictions with no empirical evidence to support one view over another. That is the problem with religious thought. Since there is no evidence, the final settlement is with guns.
You and I argue over whether a brick weighs 5kg or 10kg. Sooner or later, we find a scale and weigh the damned thing. Oh, it was 8kg. Both wrong, but one estimate was closer. End of argument.
That is why science is based on empirical evidence and that is the final authority on any question.
All you guys have are a bunch of old often contradictory texts that can tell you anything you want to hear. Men killed other men in arguments over the shape of Earth based on interpretation of these scriptures. Basing one's views on scriptures is a recipe for mindless destruction, no matter how sweet and pretty they might sound in your heart.
Ouch! Guns? Most wars are fought over land. But, many are over religion. Only difference is it is usually two different religions. Now we are fighting faith against no faith which makes no sense!
How come you got the ten and I got the five when the answer was ten. See, in my scenario you would have guessed five and I would have guessed eight if the answer was ten.:o ). Does the one who won get to beat the loser over the head with the brick? Or do the shake hands and continue down the road together to find another brick?
You old softy, I know there is a heart in you somewhere. I think it is good to hear that the human race will not just continue down the same path of searching for answers that elude us, mans inhumanity to man, war, murder, child abuse, animal abuse, corruption, greed..... I like hearing that there is an ultimate VICTORY OVER all the evil in the world. And if the spirit does live on after death, we won't have to deal with evil.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142574 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
No, if I believed as you do, I would have no reason to want to escape death.
Why do you think believing in magic is a prerequisite to enjoying life?
Believer wrote:
Since I believe as I do, I can look forward to death. Not suffering, but death.
And, if your belief is nothing more than a delusion designed to quell a natural fear, would it matter to you if your belief were valid or not? In other words, does the end justify the means? Do you care if the things you believe are true?
Believer wrote:
I do not consider you "dishonest" because you choose a different way than I of determining what is fact / truth.
Yes. We base "truth" on things like demonstrable reality. You based it on whatever feels good to you. Which of these has proven more useful in increasing our understanding of reality, which is the most important truth of all?
Believer wrote:
I wish you would not be so presumptuous as to accuse me of being "dishonest." One thing I can assure you is that I am not dishonest about what I believe is truth, any more than you are dishonest about what you believe is fact.
You are intellectually dishonest. When you know your thinking has been forced into self-contradiction, you do not admit it. Instead, you avoid it as much as possible, because honesty isn't as important to you as comfort. You'd rather avoid discomfort than be honest with us and yourself. You can't lie to us without first lying to yourself, and you've got to lie to yourself far more than to us, because we're not always around, but you are.
Believer wrote:
We think differently. That is not being dishonest! That is being human and using our ability to think for ourselves and make personal choices.
Right. You've chosen the "whatever I like must be true" approach. It's bullshit, but that's what you've chosen.
Believer wrote:
I have learned many scientific facts from those of you who have much more knowledge about such things than I have. Much of what you say I accept believing you have stated the facts as they have been presented to you by those who have done the research. When two of you disagree, since I have not studied the "evidence" I have no clue as to who I would consider right on the issue. Personal responsibility!
Did the Noah's ark global year-long flood occur?

If so, why do you think you know more about geology than all the geologists around the world?
Believer wrote:
I take responsible for my Faith in God. I have studied, I have experiences that are more than sufficient evidence for my personal beliefs. That is NOT being dishonest!
Is it possible that you're misinterpreting the experiences you've had? Could it be that you're inadvertently guilty of confirmation bias and applying various logical fallacies due to the conditioning you've received and the consistent reinforcement you get from your community and/or family (and to avoid cognitive dissonance rooted in such)? Or, is your interpretation of your experiences infallible?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142576 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Must I look up the references to God that were made by our founding fathers?
Don't you people ever lighten up a little?
If making fun of me gets you guys to smile or laugh, I just consider that my good deed for the day.
BTW, I love the smiley faces ( and all the other goofy faces)! Wish they were available to us here. ;o )
(Like fingernails on a chalkboard to many of you stuffy scientists?)
Yes. While you're at it, find all the references to God that were made in the Constitution, which is the document that is responsible for the nature of the country.

Do you understand the context of the use of God and Creator in the Declaration of Independence? What did Thomas Jefferson's Bible look like and why? What is the Treaty of Tripoli? More to the point: why do you think it's important that Christianity enjoy some sort of privileged position in the American body politic?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142577 Jul 17, 2013
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
What physical evidence of the big bang do you have other than some scientists saying we think it happened that way?
Such a question demonstrates your ignorance. Why not do your own homework?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142579 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
What you will never understand is just because you do not believe honor killing is evil that makes it science instead of supernatural activity.
I'm glad we haven't started teaching honor killing in our public schools. Left to people like you, our kids really are in danger!
Are honor killings evil? Simple question. Either they are or they aren't. Just answer the question.

By the way, please show us all where I said, or even implied, anything about whether honor killings are evil or not. Another example of your dishonesty. You cannot claim to be honest when your words show you to be a liar.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142580 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Why would we use scientific arguments as evidence for a supernatural God?
Why would we assume there's such a thing as "supernatural?"

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142581 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
How about explaining what led up to the Big Bang. And, if you never wondered WHY the Big Bang happened, what difference does it make how it happened?
At least we believe God has existed "from everlasting to everlasting."
And that God had an intelligent plan and purpose in creation.
It takes as much faith to believe in a Big Bang as it does to believe in the Garden of Eden.
Big Bang? Poof! Abrakadabra ! Bippity Boppity Boo!
The universe has the capacity for "life-ing." And you think believers in God are ignorant and living in la la land?
So, you admit that you're satisfied with an argument from ignorance because it removes the discomfort of not having an answer to a big question. Employing logical fallacies is never the best means of increasing one's understanding of reality. Better to say "we don't know, but we're working on it" than to say "we don't know, therefore it must be X." I can just as easily substitute leprechauns for God, and there's equal explanatory power. This alone completely invalidates your God explanation.

What does "reject the greater miracle" mean?

What does "argument from ignorance" mean?

What does "cognitive dissonance" mean?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142582 Jul 17, 2013
one way or another wrote:
Too funny, you try to defend yourself to one deceitful person, about another deceitful person.
See, Believer? Even batshit insane Jimbo recognizes that you're a liar.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142583 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Ouch! Guns? Most wars are fought over land. But, many are over religion. Only difference is it is usually two different religions. Now we are fighting faith against no faith which makes no sense!
How come you got the ten and I got the five when the answer was ten. See, in my scenario you would have guessed five and I would have guessed eight if the answer was ten.:o ). Does the one who won get to beat the loser over the head with the brick? Or do the shake hands and continue down the road together to find another brick?
You old softy, I know there is a heart in you somewhere. I think it is good to hear that the human race will not just continue down the same path of searching for answers that elude us, mans inhumanity to man, war, murder, child abuse, animal abuse, corruption, greed..... I like hearing that there is an ultimate VICTORY OVER all the evil in the world. And if the spirit does live on after death, we won't have to deal with evil.
Define "spirit."

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#142584 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Human characteristic, I suppose, but isn't it interesting that to me you are the ones who seem to think they have all the answers for EVERYONE.
I definitely know it is not my responsibility to convince anyone to believe as I do. And, that is definitely not my goal!
Speaking for myself, and I think at least a few other Believers, we don't want to impose anything on anyone, or "guilt" anyone, or think we have any reason to feel superior to anyone.
I'm not interested in "religion." I am interested in not having to hide my faith or be treated as if I should be ashamed of myself because I have chosen faith over science for my "worldview."
One major problem with Topix and blogs, etc. is the lack of body language and voice inflection that could help us better understand one another.
I think there have been times when our comments are taken as sarcastic and critical of someone, when that is not our intention.
And we all obviously do, at times, intend to be sarcastic and critical. Then once we've been offended it is easy to become defensive.
I believe that anyone who enters into these conversation with people we don't have a clue about personally must be someone who like you "who enjoy hearing other viewpoints and engaging in stimulating and brisk discourse."
I suppose it is our passion for the issue that causes us to get a little testy at times. Stupid, idiot, moron is not helpful, but sometimes the name calling is good for a healthy laugh.
It's exactly the text-only medium that makes me demand that you define your terms, so we can all understand what you're talking about. Or, don't you care about us being able to understand what you're talking about? Do you speak just to hear yourself, or do you speak so that you can be heard and understood by others? Define "spirit." Define "spiritual." Define them without resorting to each other or themselves. Circular definitions are invalid.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#142585 Jul 17, 2013
Believer wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I did make that up. I was pretty sure he was not in favor of honor killings. I was trying to turn the tables on LG because that is exactly what he does 90% of the time when he disagrees with something.
I find him the absolute worse for putting words in the mouths of others, so when someone not familiar with what has already been explained read his reply, they can come away with a total misrepresentation of what I originally said.
I think that is dishonest. And, yes I was being deliberately dishonest in that comment to LG. his tactic, not mine!
I appreciate your honesty.
Believer

Manchester, TN

#142586 Jul 17, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Are honor killings evil? Simple question. They either are, or they aren't. Which is it?
Yes ,of course honor killing is evil! Now you are going to tell me that God is evil because in the Old Testament God intended for some people to kill other people, animals, children even.

I don't understand that. And, yes, I do question some of the things in the Bible! I don't question that those things happened, I question why they happened. It
It seems very much like what goes on today, except since I am a Christian, I can rest in the fact that God did what He had to do to deal with evil ( maybe fighting evil with evil).

Now, as a Christian I see God in the person of Jesus. I BELIEVE (and there are historical records to support it), that it was God' s supernatural plan from the beginning to she'd his own blood, and die as a man, and come back to life in a way that would prove that He was who He claimed to be.

If you believe that those children were innocent bystanders in the sins of their mothers and fathers, but that to end the abominations committed by the parents, the children had to die as well ( or maybe the humane thing was a quick death for the children rather than being left with no adults to care for them)... If God is the one who created that life, and He has prepared a better place for that little spirit to exist then why should I question how God chose to accomplish His Will among His people.)

If you will notice the Judeo/Christian Faith does not condone honor killing or murder of any kind!
Is that enough information to answer you question, or would you like to hear more?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#142587 Jul 17, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
See, Believer? Even batshit insane Jimbo recognizes that you're a liar.
I'm not so sure about that. If Jimbozo calls someone else a liar, I'd need a second opinion.

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