Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 180382 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#131538 May 27, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
See, that's where you're mistaken. You could easily change my beliefs, and those of subduction zone and just about any of the rest of us if you did one little thing: presented empirical evidence and logical arguments supported by it. That's all we have ever asked for, and we've been pretty explicit over the years that if someone did that, it would be impressive and appreciated.
But, in all this time, not a single creationist has ever done this one thing. Meanwhile, we do it constantly, and, you're right, we'll never change the beliefs of the creationists. Creationists don't care about evidence. That's WHY they're creationists.
If evidence mattered, they'd understand how science works, and they'd stop making bullshit arguments and pretending that science is nothing more than a global atheistic anti-Bible conspiracy perpetrated by people who are dogmatically bound to Darwin and too incompetent to do proper science, while only fundamentalists Christians are capable of doing it.
There are psychological reasons for your refusal to allow your beliefs to change. You may not understand them or even be aware of them, but that doesn't change the fact that there are. Likewise, your ignorance of how science works doesn't change the fact that science works. The universe isn't beholden nor obliged to conform itself to the ignorance of any particular person or people. You are simply not that significant.
To put it bluntly: creationism is dishonest stupidity, your support of it is dishonest stupidity, and everyone who supports it is dishonest and stupid. It's a willful and concerted effort to maintain more profound ignorance as our understanding of the universe expands. That is the stupidest thing any grown adult human being without severe traumatic brain injury could do with their intellectual abilities. And, I say that with all due respect.
Bold faced lies. Pure bigoted hooey. You got nothing.

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#131539 May 27, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
See, that's where you're mistaken. You could easily change my beliefs, and those of subduction zone and just about any of the rest of us if you did one little thing: presented empirical evidence and logical arguments supported by it. That's all we have ever asked for, and we've been pretty explicit over the years that if someone did that, it would be impressive and appreciated.
But, in all this time, not a single creationist has ever done this one thing. Meanwhile, we do it constantly, and, you're right, we'll never change the beliefs of the creationists. Creationists don't care about evidence. That's WHY they're creationists.
If evidence mattered, they'd understand how science works, and they'd stop making bullshit arguments and pretending that science is nothing more than a global atheistic anti-Bible conspiracy perpetrated by people who are dogmatically bound to Darwin and too incompetent to do proper science, while only fundamentalists Christians are capable of doing it.
There are psychological reasons for your refusal to allow your beliefs to change. You may not understand them or even be aware of them, but that doesn't change the fact that there are. Likewise, your ignorance of how science works doesn't change the fact that science works. The universe isn't beholden nor obliged to conform itself to the ignorance of any particular person or people. You are simply not that significant.
To put it bluntly: creationism is dishonest stupidity, your support of it is dishonest stupidity, and everyone who supports it is dishonest and stupid. It's a willful and concerted effort to maintain more profound ignorance as our understanding of the universe expands. That is the stupidest thing any grown adult human being without severe traumatic brain injury could do with their intellectual abilities. And, I say that with all due respect.
You can call me stupid or dishonest all you want to. It won't matter same as I can call you the same but I choose not to. I come to talk, not act like a child. But you just continue on and you can surely find someone with your tactics that you can force your belief down. lol
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#131540 May 27, 2013
*** Reasons Why Evolution Never Happened ***(Part 1)

YOUNG AGE INDICATORS: Spiral galaxies young and not yet “wound up”; Type III Supernova remnants “missing”; Comets (Jupiter Family) maximum lifespan 10,000 years; Moon orbit recession rate limits Earth’s maximum age; Saturn ring / moon system upper age limit 10 million years; Absence of Pop. III stars refute BB theory; Discovery of blue stars in Milky Way Galaxy refutes old age; Faint Young Sun Paradox; Polonium-halos in granite rock; C14 in “ancient” samples; Youthful age of cavern speleothems (Carlsbad, Sequoyah); Natural gas seepage rate; The Dead Sea and it’s salt clock max 13,000 years old; Net sodium increase/Ocean salt clock; Amount/depth of ocean floor sediments; Manganese sea nodule size, growth rate, and depth; Rate of diminishing earth geo-magnetic field strength; Atmospheric helium buildup rate; World population growth rates; The world’s oldest living thing; Oldest historical records 5,000 years; Biblical genealogy of the patriarchs; Mitochondrial Eve 6,000 years ago; Insufficient time/generations to account for 60 million (98%) mutations selected makes human-chimp evolution impossible;

FINE TUNING/DESIGN INDICATORS: Fine tuning of solar system and earth-moon system; Sun’s perfect size, mass, temperature, & distance; Solar eclipse perfect, unique; Moon perfect size and distance for tides / seasons; Perfect placement of solar system in galaxy (Goldilocks Zone); Physical laws, constants, and parameters fined-tuned; Atomic design; Perfect expansion rate of universe; Perfect amount of strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, & force of gravity; Neutron vs. proton mass; Number of electrons equals number of protons; Atmosphere has correct mixture of gases; Perfect tilt of earth; Perfect amount of surface gravity; Properties of water (H2O); Metamorphosis; Origin of photosynthesis; DNA-RNA-Protein code and programming same in all cells in all living things from the beginning shows that none or more or less primitive or advanced than any other; Genetic programming code exactly same set of rules in every cell on earth; Irreducibly complex biological systems (bacterial flagellum, blood clotting cascade); Designed complexity (giraffe neck, bombardier beetle & trilobite eye); No intermediates between different kinds; Genetic entropy and genetic deleterious mutation rate; Beneficial symbiotic relationship between plants and animals; Navigational/migrational capabilities of animals, i.e., loggerhead turtle, salmon, hummingbird, Monarch butterfly; Biological symmetry/design patterns of plants and animals, Biological anatomical homologies exhibit variation on a theme by supreme intelligence; Very limited variation in DNA sequence in Y Chromosome worldwide; ATP Synthase has no possible forerunner; Biosynthesis/ DNA-ATP-helicase-mRNA-ribosome -tRNA-polymerase: a vicious circle for evolution; Origin of (protein/DNA) homochirality; Redundant organs (lungs, kidneys); Complex defense mechanisms (Giant African Crested Rat); All cells on earth, DNA-mRNA-Protein machinery work the same; DNA error checking & repair process prevents genetic change; Specified complexity; Complimentary food (fruit/vegetables) designed perfectly (size, shape, nutritional content, flavor) for animals/humans; 15. Fractal geometry in nature; 16. Savantism –(math, music, memory) evidence of over-design and running counter to natural selection; 17. Mathematics in nature (Fibonacci sequence, golden ratio, e, Pi);
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#131541 May 27, 2013
*** Reasons Why Evolution Never Happened ***(Part 2)

ASTRONOMY/COSMOLOGY: Universe had beginning; No ET life found; No radio signals detected from outer space (SETI); Inhomogeneity of (bounded) universe;The Horizon Problem; High dispersion velocities of stars in galaxies;

FLOOD GEOLOGY/FOSSILS: Polystrate fossils; Cambrian explosion; Lack of soil layers & lack of erosion between layers; “Missing” age layers; Soft sediment deformation (bent rock);; Non-existent geologic “age” column; “360 Ma” Shrimp (decapods) with no change since; Living fossils from pre-Cambrian (600 Ma Horseshoe Crab); Abrupt appearance of fossils and stasis exhibited in geologic column; Soft/still rotting T.Rex tissue in “old” fossils;; H. Erectus, Neanderthal, H. Habilus, etc., were fully man; Closed-shelled mullusks; Shells found in mountains worldwide;

PHYSICAL PROCESSES: Location of Gold deposits (Au) inconsistent with evolution of molten earth;

BIOLOGY/GENETICS: Extinction of numerous species; Life comes only from (same species) life/biogenesis; Woman from man (X/Y Chromosomes); Chromosome count fixed within species; Chromosome errors cause sterility (mules); No possible evolutionary path of bird from reptile (scales/feathers, bellows lung/avian lung, crawling/flying); Unique properties of humans vs. animals; Telomeres system tightly engineered/extreme sequence conservation and no intermediate/evidence of gradual transition; Single-cell to multi-cell gap; Gene pool (male & female) fixed at parent’s birth/no environmental effect occurs during life of parents; Resistance, i.e., antibiotic or pesticide, does not yield any de novo genes or any complex new functions; Chromosome 2 Fusion Model refuted; All known life only on Earth; Evolution cannot explain origins of sexual reproduction; The myth of vestigial organs; Cold-blooded vs. warm-blooded; Placental vs. marsupial; Egg bearing vs. live birth; Lenski’s E.coli long term Research proves no vertical evolution after 50,000 generations; Cytochrome-C Percent Sequence Difference Equidistant From All Eucaryotes To Bacteria; C-Value Paradox; Epigenetics effects much larger than any possible mutation/selection; No true positive mutations that create new or nascent limb, tissue, organ ever observed;

OTHER/MISCELANEOUS: Bible, Creation, Fall, Flood, Babel, Christ; Duality/human consciousness; Law of cause and effect violated (nothing + nobody = everything premise illogical); Information theory in DNA; Language -unique to humans - became less complex over time in opposition to evolution; Beauty of nature (peacock tail), art, music; Second Law of Thermodynamics (universe & everything in it is “waxing” old (“closed system” myth); Mathematical odds against abiogenesis, left-hand protein, prokaryote to eukaryote, sexual reproduction; Preconditions of intelligibility: laws of logic, absolute morality, & the uniformity of nature; The non-physical, non-material world of literature, art, music, humor, logic and mathematics; Near-death experience data; Organ transplant memory transfer; Placebo, nocepbo effect; Altruism contradicts evolution; Reason incest prohibited;

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#131542 May 27, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
I wouldn't expect you to accept creation now would I? Why is that? Of course it is because you are committed to naturalism/ materialism. It is because you don't believe there is a God nothing was designed and there is no intelligence. So why would you expect any one of the deeply religious Christian founding fathers of science to think like you do? I have been a Christian for about 10 years now and I can't imagine for one second, me looking at the world as anything but intelligently designed by a Creator God. So if I were lucky enough to discover something great, shouldn't the credit go to God? Shouldn't the credit go to God for all the great things the founding fathers of science discovered in His honor? Their science was God's created science.
God has about nothing at all to do with science, which man created to understand the universe. Aside from being an inspiration I would say god was nothing to do with science.

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#131543 May 27, 2013
replaytime wrote:
If micro goes on for a long time then it is no longer micro anymore, for it becomes macro. As they are defined they are different for one is short term and one is long term. Meaning Micro just makes small changes keeping the species while macro makes drastic changes wiping out the species to form new species.
"Micro" is small changes over a shorter time than "Macro". Neither is more "drastic" than the other.
replaytime wrote:
Lets use your analogy of the mile walk. Now if I walk a mile it is only a mile, lets call it a micro-mile. Now lets say I walk 200 miles, I can no longer claim that I just walked a micro-mile for I now have walked 200 miles. 199 miles beyond that micro-mile so now it would be macro-miles. Point being there is a difference. Yes they both evolve walking and miles but one is more extreme than the other.
In your analogy; at what point does "micro" become "macro"? 50 miles? 75 miles? 112 miles? It's purely arbitrary...just like the distinction between "Microevolution" and "Macroevolution".

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#131544 May 27, 2013
replaytime wrote:
My point being is leave the high school kids alone. When and if they go to college then they can pick and choose what the want to learn by what ever they believe in.
Then History couldn't be taught because some student might hear something he didn't believe. Music couldn't be taught because some student might hear music that she didn't like. No Science of any kind because it might contradict someone's interpretation of the Bible. Nothing could be taught because no one should be exposed to ideas that might contradict what they already believe. Right?

Do you think it's wise to postpone Education 'til College when most kids don't go to college?
LowellGuy

Haverhill, MA

#131545 May 27, 2013
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
You can call me stupid or dishonest all you want to. It won't matter same as I can call you the same but I choose not to. I come to talk, not act like a child. But you just continue on and you can surely find someone with your tactics that you can force your belief down. lol
When you stop repeating bebunked apologetics and lies and logical fallacies in your defense of your religious beliefs, and start learning how science actually works, I'll stop calling you and other creationists stupid liars.

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#131546 May 27, 2013
MADRONE wrote:
<quoted text>
Then History couldn't be taught because some student might hear something he didn't believe. Music couldn't be taught because some student might hear music that she didn't like. No Science of any kind because it might contradict someone's interpretation of the Bible. Nothing could be taught because no one should be exposed to ideas that might contradict what they already believe. Right?
Do you think it's wise to postpone Education 'til College when most kids don't go to college?
For one if you believe kids get a good education in Grade school-high school anymore you are naive. All they have to do is participate and show they are trying and most of the time they pass.

Second I don't ever see a debate over music, history ect ect like what goes on with creation and evolution. But you just go ahead and make a mountain out of that little mole hill if it makes you feel better. LOL

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#131547 May 27, 2013
replaytime wrote:
You know Urban, Sub and I believe completely different but I speak to him as a person, not better than me and not below me, but equal to me. We may have different beliefs but we both are still looking for knowledge, for no one has all the answers. We may not be completely interested in what the other believes but yet I think we are both a little curious and we keep it civil and just debate/talk back and forth. I know I will never change his beliefs and he knows he will not change mine. But it is interesting talking to someone that sees things differently regardless. If you didn't come off sarcastic and hard, you might actually enjoy having a conversation with some people on here.
For sure.

Discussing points with people who disagree is useful in that it can provide insight into others' beliefs as well as helping us to evaluate our own.

Ideologues like Urban Cowboy are somewhat entertaining, but add next to nothing to our collective body of knowledge and understanding.

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#131548 May 27, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
When you stop repeating bebunked apologetics and lies and logical fallacies in your defense of your religious beliefs, and start learning how science actually works, I'll stop calling you and other creationists stupid liars.
Like I said "You can call me stupid or dishonest all you want to. It won't matter same as I can call you the same but I choose not to. I come to talk, not act like a child. But you just continue on and you can surely find someone with your tactics that you can force your belief down".

You believe what you want and I will believe what I want. The biggest difference between you and I is that I don't try to force feed people my belief as you do and call them names when they believe different. Childish grade school crap. Are you going to want my lunch money next? LMAO

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#131549 May 27, 2013
replaytime wrote:
For one if you believe kids get a good education in Grade school-high school anymore you are naive. All they have to do is participate and show they are trying and most of the time they pass.
This response has nothing to do with my post. If you want to have a discussion, you'll need to pay attention.
replaytime wrote:
Second I don't ever see a debate over music, history ect ect like what goes on with creation and evolution. But you just go ahead and make a mountain out of that little mole hill if it makes you feel better. LOL
You can just blow it off and play stupid if it makes you feel better. LOL.

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#131550 May 27, 2013
MADRONE wrote:
<quoted text>
This response has nothing to do with my post. If you want to have a discussion, you'll need to pay attention.
<quoted text>
You can just blow it off and play stupid if it makes you feel better. LOL.
This was your post that I responded to. maybe you need to pay attention.
"Then History couldn't be taught because some student might hear something he didn't believe. Music couldn't be taught because some student might hear music that she didn't like. No Science of any kind because it might contradict someone's interpretation of the Bible. Nothing could be taught because no one should be exposed to ideas that might contradict what they already believe. Right?
Do you think it's wise to postpone Education 'til College when most kids don't go to college"?

“Understand people,”

Level 3

Since: Mar 08

do you.

#131551 May 27, 2013
Do any of you have a job?

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#131552 May 27, 2013
UnderstandPeople wrote:
Do any of you have a job?
Sure do Under. I work 3 12's and stay there for 12 on call. so basically like 3 24's and have off 4 days. How about yourself?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#131553 May 27, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
*** Reasons Why Evolution Never Happened ***(Part 1)
YOUNG AGE INDICATORS: Spiral galaxies young and not yet “wound up”; Type III Supernova remnants “missing”; Comets (Jupiter Family) maximum lifespan 10,000 years; Moon orbit recession rate limits Earth’s maximum age; Saturn ring / moon system upper age limit 10 million years; Absence of Pop. III stars refute BB theory; Discovery of blue stars in Milky Way Galaxy refutes old age; Faint Young Sun Paradox; Polonium-halos in granite rock; C14 in “ancient” samples; Youthful age of cavern speleothems (Carlsbad, Sequoyah); Natural gas seepage rate; The Dead Sea and it’s salt clock max 13,000 years old; Net sodium increase/Ocean salt clock; Amount/depth of ocean floor sediments; Manganese sea nodule size, growth rate, and depth; Rate of diminishing earth geo-magnetic field strength; Atmospheric helium buildup rate; World population growth rates; The world’s oldest living thing; Oldest historical records 5,000 years; Biblical genealogy of the patriarchs; Mitochondrial Eve 6,000 years ago; Insufficient time/generations to account for 60 million (98%) mutations selected makes human-chimp evolution impossible;
FINE TUNING/DESIGN INDICATORS: Fine tuning of solar system and earth-moon system; Sun’s perfect size, mass, temperature, & distance; Solar eclipse perfect, unique; Moon perfect size and distance for tides / seasons; Perfect placement of solar system in galaxy (Goldilocks Zone); Physical laws, constants, and parameters fined-tuned; Atomic design; Perfect expansion rate of universe; Perfect amount of strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, & force of gravity; Neutron vs. proton mass; Number of electrons equals number of protons; Atmosphere has correct mixture of gases; Perfect tilt of earth; Perfect amount of surface gravity; Properties of water (H2O); Metamorphosis; Origin of photosynthesis; DNA-RNA-Protein code and programming same in all cells in all living things from the beginning shows that none or more or less primitive or advanced than any other; Genetic programming code exactly same set of rules in every cell on earth; Irreducibly complex biological systems (bacterial flagellum, blood clotting cascade); Designed complexity (giraffe neck, bombardier beetle & trilobite eye); No intermediates between different kinds; Genetic entropy and genetic deleterious mutation rate; Beneficial symbiotic relationship between plants and animals; Navigational/migrational capabilities of animals, i.e., loggerhead turtle, salmon, hummingbird, Monarch butterfly; Biological symmetry/design patterns of plants and animals, Biological anatomical homologies exhibit variation on a theme by supreme intelligence; Very limited variation in DNA sequence in Y Chromosome worldwide; ATP Synthase has no possible forerunner; Biosynthesis/ DNA-ATP-helicase-mRNA-ribosome -tRNA-polymerase: a vicious circle for evolution; Origin of (protein/DNA) homochirality; Redundant organs (lungs, kidneys); Complex defense mechanisms (Giant African Crested Rat); All cells on earth, DNA-mRNA-Protein machinery work the same; DNA error checking & repair process prevents genetic change; Specified complexity; Complimentary food (fruit/vegetables) designed perfectly (size, shape, nutritional content, flavor) for animals/humans; 15. Fractal geometry in nature; 16. Savantism –(math, music, memory) evidence of over-design and running counter to natural selection; 17. Mathematics in nature (Fibonacci sequence, golden ratio, e, Pi);
Yes! Yes! I did it!

I know that others helped but I am taking credit for driving Turd and Cowflop to dredge up this hundreds of times nonsense again!

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#131554 May 27, 2013
replaytime wrote:
This was your post that I responded to. maybe you need to pay attention.
"Then History couldn't be taught because some student might hear something he didn't believe. Music couldn't be taught because some student might hear music that she didn't like. No Science of any kind because it might contradict someone's interpretation of the Bible. Nothing could be taught because no one should be exposed to ideas that might contradict what they already believe. Right?
Do you think it's wise to postpone Education 'til College when most kids don't go to college"?
replaytime wrote:
For one if you believe kids get a good education in Grade school-high school anymore you are naive. All they have to do is participate and show they are trying and most of the time they pass.
MADRONE wrote:
This response has nothing to do with my post. If you want to have a discussion, you'll need to pay attention.
Whatever...

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#131555 May 27, 2013
MADRONE wrote:
<quoted text>
Whatever...
Good call.
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#131556 May 27, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> God has about nothing at all to do with science, which man created to understand the universe. Aside from being an inspiration I would say god was nothing to do with science.
Gods' entire universe is scientific and mathematical. Part of being a prophet was to understand science. Daniel 1:4. The Messiah will apply physics to the natural world. God is Energy and the forces in nature. Gravitation, electromagnetism and the nuclear forces. Daniel 11:38. Energy is omnipotent, omnipresent and eternal. It cannot be created or destroyed but can only change form. Hell is a black hole, the absence of Energy, light, and heat.

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#131557 May 27, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
Yes! Yes! I did it!
I know that others helped but I am taking credit for driving Turd and Cowflop to dredge up this hundreds of times nonsense again!
The List DOES seem to serve as his acknowledgement that he's endured a series of ass-whuppins and run out of childish insults. Good work.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Evolution Debate Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News "Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really T... (Jan '12) 7 min Ben Avraham 77,010
News Evolution vs. Creation (Jul '11) 13 min The FACTory 221,987
News Atheism, for Good Reason, Fears Questions (Jun '09) 25 min Into The Night 32,244
News It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in e... (Mar '09) 26 min The FACTory 162,492
News Nonsense of a high order: The confused world of... (Jan '17) 30 min The FACTory 4,317
News Why Atheist Richard Dawkins Supports Religious ... 45 min nanoanomaly 826
Can the universe be God's brain? (Jun '07) Mon The FACTory 101
More from around the web