Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 179741 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#129497 May 11, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
You wont find a single dinosaur fossil above the Permian Triassic extinction line . You may find places where the crust has been moved and there is no extinction line, or even places where layers are upside down. But it doesn't change the fact all dinosaurs were from before the Permian Triassic extinction line.
Which was 65 million ya, and all modern mammals, including hominids and humans will be above this line.
Got your wires crossed here. The Permian extinction line was 250mya and 20 millions years before the first dinos appeared. It destroyed the trilobites though, along with 90% of all species known at the time.

You are thinking of the Cretaceous extinction, the KY boundary, of 65mya. A milder event, but enough to put an end to the dinos.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#129498 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
The Creation model has man walking with the dinosaurs. Even from an evolution perspective we have human or ape like skull fossils and we have dinosaur fossils. Both categories are found; that is fact. How far away from each other? At what different depth? Not much different. Since all fossils are formed by catastrophy. But what other fossils ARE found right next to dinosaur fossils and dated the same - even by the evolutionist's standards? Furthermore, what fossils have been found right next to dinosaurs and dated the same? Still further, what fossils have been found dated the same as the nearby dinosaurs and appear very similar to a living species? Nearly all of them! To name just a few, lobsters, horseshoe crabs, crayfish, dragonflys, waterbugs, beetles, cockroaches, bees, butterflys, bivalve shellfish, clams, snails, worms, fish, eels, sharks, rays, frogs, alligators, crocodiles, snakes, etc. They all look like the modern living species (even though the evolutionist call them different names because they believe they had to be different due to the assumed time differences). But the question is, how far removed are the human and ape skull fossils found from the dinosaur fossils? And also, how different are they really from the living species given the variation in the species? So is the situation with all those other living fossils found alongside dinosuars really the same with human and ape fossils? I think it is!
I don't know where you get your fairy tale "information" from, but its not supported by actual evidence and you would be forced to claim that the entire scientific establishment across multiple countries for over a century are in on a grand conspiracy, to back your ridiculous claims.

Get over it. The dinosaurs were gone 60 million years before the first hominids walked the earth. Enough of your utter nonsense, thanks.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#129499 May 11, 2013
So we see, the evidence for YEC creationism as expounded by UC and HTS among others boils down to...

A conspiracy to hide fossils that don't fit the pattern of evolution.

A conspiracy to claim that radiometric dating is reliable when used properly.

A conspiracy in biology and geology that cut across all countries, political viewpoints, and religious affiliations for the last 150 years at least. And lest we forget, the astronomers, cosmologists, and physicists are in on it too.

What a joke.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#129500 May 11, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> LOL ok but what ever you want to call them, dinos are between them and not before or after.
Modern mammals are after the K/Pg line and not before.
The point being fossils aren't jumbled together like cowboy says.
To be honest I just learned this new terminology this week. As I said, when I went to school it was still the K/T boundary.

I am just trying to keep everyone "au courant".

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#129501 May 11, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you categorically assume that intelligent design = "magic"?
The conclusion of intelligent design is a logical scientific deduction.
No, ID is merely an argument from ignorance. "I can't think of a way this could happen naturally, therefore *INSERT ENTITY HERE* did it." And, the big problem with ID is that it can be used to explain absolutely ANYTHING. And, a lesser but no less hilarious problem is that you can substitute absolutely ANYTHING IMAGINARY into the entity slot and it doesn't lose any explanatory value. And, the overarching problem is that ID merely posits a "WHO," not a "HOW." Without a mechanism, there is no explanation. "How did the pictures on the Sistine Chapel's ceiling get there?" If you say "Michelangelo," that's the WHO, not the HOW. He had scaffolds, and laid on his back for months at a time painting the shit out of that thing. That's the HOW. ID has NO HOW. ID is not a theory. It is not even a hypothesis. At best, it's a logical fallacy. And, please remind us what cdesign proponentsists are.
HTS wrote:
Do you understand the wave/particle duality of light? No one does. It is an observational fact. Does that mean it's "magic"?
I don't understand how you can be so shit-stupid, but it is an observable fact. I don't think it's magic.
HTS wrote:
I observe that life shows evidence of a higher power of intelligence in its creation.
You assume creation. You're beginning with the conclusion. You have to begin with "X exists." Work from there. Not "X was created." You're introducing bias right from the start, which means everything that follows from that start will be worthless.

Have you ever read a science book? Other than "Of Pandas and People?" You know, like, an ACTUAL science book?
HTS wrote:
My lack of ability to scientifically explain how such an intelligent force operates and conforms to laws of the universe doesn't suggest that I believe in "magic".
Perhaps, but it DOES mean that you don't have a mechanism for the diversity of life on Earth. I asked you to explain the diversity of life without resorting to religion or supernatural magic. You have yet to do so. Your failure to understand how science works is not MY shortcoming.
HTS wrote:
If you reject intelligent design, you are required to accept even greater "magic" than I do.
Again, at best, ID is a WHO, not a HOW. Explaining biodiversity on Earth requires a HOW, not a WHO. What is the HOW? What is the mechanism? We're already conceding evolution is completely wrong. Just explain the diversity of life on Earth.
HTS wrote:
I've never suggested that a literal interpretation of Genesis can be proven by the scientific method. You have created a false dichotomy. You imply that if you reject evolution, there is only one other alternative.
Who said anything about Genesis? I said that we'll concede, for the sake of argument, that the theory of evolution is completely wrong. Explain the diversity of life on Earth without resorting to religion or supernatural magic. I didn't refer to Genesis or the Bible or anything. Tell us how life came to be so diverse on Earth. Tell us the mechanism.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#129502 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
The Creation model has man walking with the dinosaurs. Even from an evolution perspective we have human or ape like skull fossils and we have dinosaur fossils. Both categories are found; that is fact. How far away from each other? At what different depth? Not much different.
Yeah, what's 63 million years between friends?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#129503 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
If I were to plot on a map the spatial coordinates of all the major dinosaur fossils finds and all the major human and ape fossil finds, what would it look like? All major mammal and bird fossils for that matter! If this were done in a comprehensive manner, what would it reveal?
That land animals live on land?

“e pluribus unum”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

primus inter pares

#129504 May 11, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
To be honest I just learned this new terminology this week. As I said, when I went to school it was still the K/T boundary.
I am just trying to keep everyone "au courant".
Well this shift in terminology may be academically older that it's push to mainstream, I hadn't heard it either. I have read lots about it so a whole lot of websites need to be updated.
But again my point is there are markers in the fossil record and the fossils fall on one or the other side of these markers and show us a wide variation in the time difference these fossils/creatures existed. I know UCB has to be lying when he makes up these creationist claims because he has to know that by now.
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#129505 May 11, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't know where you get your fairy tale "information" from, but its not supported by actual evidence and you would be forced to claim that the entire scientific establishment across multiple countries for over a century are in on a grand conspiracy, to back your ridiculous claims.
Get over it. The dinosaurs were gone 60 million years before the first hominids walked the earth. Enough of your utter nonsense, thanks.
Instead of responding to honest scientific inquiry, you spew out the same old crap. And you wonder why we don't believe you.
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#129506 May 11, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
So we see, the evidence for YEC creationism as expounded by UC and HTS among others boils down to...
A conspiracy to hide fossils that don't fit the pattern of evolution.
A conspiracy to claim that radiometric dating is reliable when used properly.
A conspiracy in biology and geology that cut across all countries, political viewpoints, and religious affiliations for the last 150 years at least. And lest we forget, the astronomers, cosmologists, and physicists are in on it too.
What a joke.
No, what's a joke is "60 million year old" fossils found right next to "1 million year old fossils". The difference being a failed theory.
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#129507 May 11, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text> LOL ok but what ever you want to call them, dinos are between them and not before or after.
Modern mammals are after the K/Pg line and not before.
The point being fossils aren't jumbled together like cowboy says.
Actually, yes, the many creatures I listed as being labeled the same age as the dinosaurs and appearing very similar to the living ones ARE basically jumbled together. I accept that you believe that dinosaurs went extinct some "65 million years" ago. I get that.(Of course I don't believe that.) I am simply making the observation that there are many animal species (like the several I listed above) found alongside dinosaur fossils that appear very similar to the living species.(And I also understand that you have to same them something completely different due to the theory's requirements for age.) Now I am simply taking that just a little further and asking where exactly (spatial coordinates) were all the dinosaur fossils found and where exactly were all the human and ape fossils found? That's all. I know this is line of questioning is sensitive and presses your buttons but it must asked. So far there doesn't seem to be much distance between the two. I wonder what the closest has been, i.e., what is the least spatial distance separating a dinosaur fossil with an ape or human fossil? Good question! An inch? A foot? A meter? Ten meters? I'm going to find out.
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#129508 May 11, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
That land animals live on land?
So you obviously would have no problem knowing that a human skull fossil might be found 1 inch away from a dinosaur fossil? Amazing.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Indianapolis, IN

#129509 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
So you obviously would have no problem knowing that a human skull fossil might be found 1 inch away from a dinosaur fossil? Amazing.
What are you blathering about now?

I don't see any references for this '1 inch' assertion.

“e pluribus unum”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

primus inter pares

#129510 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, yes, the many creatures I listed as being labeled the same age as the dinosaurs and appearing very similar to the living ones ARE basically jumbled together. I accept that you believe that dinosaurs went extinct some "65 million years" ago. I get that.(Of course I don't believe that.) I am simply making the observation that there are many animal species (like the several I listed above) found alongside dinosaur fossils that appear very similar to the living species.(And I also understand that you have to same them something completely different due to the theory's requirements for age.) Now I am simply taking that just a little further and asking where exactly (spatial coordinates) were all the dinosaur fossils found and where exactly were all the human and ape fossils found? That's all. I know this is line of questioning is sensitive and presses your buttons but it must asked. So far there doesn't seem to be much distance between the two. I wonder what the closest has been, i.e., what is the least spatial distance separating a dinosaur fossil with an ape or human fossil? Good question! An inch? A foot? A meter? Ten meters? I'm going to find out.
http://strata.uga.edu/

http://www.stratigraphy.org/index.php/ics-cha...
Mugwump

Rochdale, UK

#129511 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
No, what's a joke is "60 million year old" fossils found right next to "1 million year old fossils". The difference being a failed theory.
Can you be specific on the above claim, and provide a reference
HTS

Mandan, ND

#129512 May 11, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course it has. Exactly what you see above is demonstrated in experiments such as Lenski. Not only that, but we have observational evidence, such as the lizards of Pod Mcaru developing a caecum within generations of being transported to a new island with a major change in food source.
We can also see the step by step development of the 3-boned middle ear in the mammal-like reptiles as a perfect example of a new structure developing through the elaboration of existing parts.
We see it even in the gradual changes in the trilobites and dinosaurs in their time on earth, then in the mammals and birds.
You basically couldn't ask for more evidence!
IN any case, you have refuted nothing of my hypothesis at all. So I take it you can accept that in principle, my hypothesis meets logical criteria and therefore your repeated blarney that the proposed mechanism is "mysterious" or "magical" or "unknown" is incorrect. Its perfectly straightforward, and you know it.
Lenski himself believed that his experiment only involved deregulation of a pre-existing citrate utilization system.
Therefore, not new genetic information was acquired.

As far as lizards developing a cecum... A cecum is nothing more than an arbitrarily designated segment of colon. You need to demonstrate in detail and through logic why that is enhanced complexity.
Everything else you stated is raw conjecture.
In actuality, you have nothing but your imagination.
LowellGuy

United States

#129513 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
So you obviously would have no problem knowing that a human skull fossil might be found 1 inch away from a dinosaur fossil? Amazing.
If true, that would be front page news around the world. I don't recall any such news story. Maybe I missed it. Please refresh everybody's memory and cite it in a major newspaper or major peer-reviewed scientific journal.
LowellGuy

United States

#129514 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, yes, the many creatures I listed as being labeled the same age as the dinosaurs and appearing very similar to the living ones ARE basically jumbled together. I accept that you believe that dinosaurs went extinct some "65 million years" ago. I get that.(Of course I don't believe that.) I am simply making the observation that there are many animal species (like the several I listed above) found alongside dinosaur fossils that appear very similar to the living species.(And I also understand that you have to same them something completely different due to the theory's requirements for age.) Now I am simply taking that just a little further and asking where exactly (spatial coordinates) were all the dinosaur fossils found and where exactly were all the human and ape fossils found? That's all. I know this is line of questioning is sensitive and presses your buttons but it must asked. So far there doesn't seem to be much distance between the two. I wonder what the closest has been, i.e., what is the least spatial distance separating a dinosaur fossil with an ape or human fossil? Good question! An inch? A foot? A meter? Ten meters? I'm going to find out.
Why are fundamentalist Christians the only ones who are competent at science?

“Universal Conscious Conscience”

Level 3

Since: Feb 08

Planet Earth

#129515 May 11, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Good one, Infinite Force
Ooogah Boogah
Grow a brain
Thank You Russell!

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#129516 May 11, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
No, what's a joke is "60 million year old" fossils found right next to "1 million year old fossils". The difference being a failed theory.
Found where? In the Smithsonian?

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