Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 Full story: www.scientificblogging.com 175,357

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand." Full Story

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127408 Apr 19, 2013
Sometimes to protect my brain from extreme idiocy I do not read all of rusty's posts.

For example his "Pompeii/Pompei" nonsense.

Pompeii was not rebuilt because it was turned into a permanent archaeological site. It has more value for the preserved history and as a tourist attraction than it would have as a town. Pompei is a village right next to Pompeii and they took there name more or less from the site.

You are correct in a very minor way that Pompeii was never rebuilt, but then no one ever tried to. It is an extremely Russell, oops, I mean stupid example.

Pompeii was not rebuilt, Tyre was. Your own sources that you quoted at me TWICE said so. I have said so. Any historian will say so. Only idiot Christian Fundies will deny this.
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#127409 Apr 19, 2013
Right

Now where were we....

I think we're making great progress in our Bible study

The student is a little....shall we say...feisty

But we'll get there in the end

****SPECIAL ED CLASS******

<Excrutiatingly slow....but them's the breaks

Some people are just s-l-o-w learners>

==========

SubDud

You can take back what you have said about King Nebuchadrezzar being the sole instigator of the destruction of Tyre

You're clearly wrong

The Ezekiel 26 verses open with the "many nations" stated within the first 3 verses

Here it is:

Ez 26:3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you,

MANY NATIONS

Therefore

Scripture 100,000,000
SZ 0


==========

Why do Ezekiel say "many nations" if God, who you're trying to prove wrong only meant Nebuchadrezzar ?

Nebuchadrezzar is NOT many nations

He was Babylonian

Why does Ezekiel say many nations?

Why?
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#127410 Apr 19, 2013
Hold on to your hats, folks

Here's where we lose SZ

But never mind

We'll just back track again and again.....

Like a perpetual motion machine

Until we get somewhere

==========

LOCATION OF ANCIENT PHOENICIAN TYRE

1) MAINLAND TYRE---> AKA PALEOTYROS

"But two separate ancient accounts - one by Strabo, the other in the Periplus of (pseudo-)Scylax - clearly place Palaetyros south of Greek/Roman era Tyre.

So Palaetyros was not in the area presently (and from Greek/Roman times) called "Tyre".

A third line of evidence concerns the classical accounts of the building of Alexander's moles that imply the first (failed) mole was started from a point on the coast south-east, not due east, from the island.

That, logically, also puts Palaetyros (the source of most mole material) south of the island, not due east of it.

==========

Remember that the materials for the building of the causeway were acquired from the rubble of the destroyed Paleotyre

==========

That large area about 1.5 miles south of current Tyre, on the coast, fits these relevant historical details

Today quite barren and desolate

That is where the original Tyre, as described by Ezekiel, was.

As you can see, it's certainly not built now - it's actually a protected nature reserve.

However, the several unusual surface features - zoom in to look more closely - invite investigation, as possible indications that a city once stood there. "

Thus

The Google map site I had linked reveals the site of Ancient Tyre aka Paleotyre

==========

"Tyre again endured a long siege in its struggle with Nebuchadnezzar.

The town upon the coast was utterly destroyed"

This is from a Google digitized book

See Chap 8 Number 60 for this quote

http://archive.org/stream/cyprusitshistor01la...

==========

Also here Tyre is described as two separate sites

http://www.glbet-el.org/textesfrancais/Hiram%...

==========

And furthermore

From the Columbia Encyclopaedia-->

"The principal ruins of the city today are those of buildings erected by the Crusaders. There are some Greco-Roman remains, but any left by the Phoenicians lie underneath the present town. "

Read more: Tyre | Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/histor...

==========

2) ISLAND TYRE

"Underwater archaeological survey in the northern harbour at Tyre.

"Bulletin d’Arche´ologie et d’Architecture Libanaises, Hors-Se´rie 2, 111e128) we demonstrate that Poidebard’s (1939. Un grand port disparu, Tyr. Recherches ae´riennes et sous-marines, 1934e1936, Librairie Orientaliste Paul Geuthner, Paris) Egyptian harbour is in reality a drowned quarter of the ancient city. Informed hypotheses are proposed for a possible second anchorage at Tyre, and it is demonstrated that presently drowned portions of the sandstone ridge served as outer harbours during the Bronze and Iron Ages."

http://www.mediterranean-geoarchaeology.com/U...

==========

As you can tell from this work cited above.....the ancient island city was DROWNED in addition to other forms of destruction

I am not aware of modern cities built upon such underwater ruins

==========

Finally

Here is a map of ancient Tyre

It depicts Alexander's mole or causeway

Please note the position of Paleotyros or Old Tyre

It is SOUTHEAST of island Tyre

Just as I showed in the Google map I had linked earlier

It is desolate and barren

NOT BUILT UP
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#127411 Apr 19, 2013
Here is a map of ancient Tyre

It depicts Alexander's mole or causeway

Please note the position of Paleotyros or Old Tyre

It is SOUTHEAST of island Tyre

Just as I showed in the Google map I had linked earlier

It is desolate and barren

NOT BUILT UP

http://www.utexas.edu/courses/introgreece/tyr...

==========

Please co-relate with the ancient map this Google map

http://maps.google.com/maps...
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#127412 Apr 19, 2013
Here's another map depicting where Old Tyre was:

http://www.ancient.eu.com/uploads/images/537....

Its from this site that also happens to clearly mention Old and "New" aka island Tyre

http://www.ancient.eu.com/article/107/
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#127413 Apr 19, 2013
Here's another site unequivocally stating there was an island Tyre and an "Old" mainland Tyre

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswa...

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#127414 Apr 19, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Dogem provides Dodgy information
How did the prophesies of verses 9-11 never happen
It was a land based siege
Battering rams were a very common battle weapon
I am intrigued by what false doctrine you are about to amaze me

History records that he never penetrated the city walls and that the seize was ended by a truce and an agreement to pay tribute.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#127415 Apr 19, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
How's the research on my question going, Oh Educated Toothless One?
I thought you'd have it all wrapped up by now
Been working on it with what spare time I may have. Are you trying to build a case that DNA is a computer code?
Russell wrote:
Here I am, sleeves rolled up
Sinews gleaming with Aussie sweat....waiting
Bite the bullet
Come into the area
Let's rumble
Don't just stand there in the sidelines, eating popcorn, screaming platitudes
I picture more of a scrawny, little pip-squeek wetting his pants.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#127416 Apr 19, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope
Neither has Pompeii
There is a modern Pompei---> spelt with one 'i'
Its near Naples
Yeah. Been to the area. It's on the other side of Vesuvius from Naples. Debatable about Pompeii being rebuilt as building did go on the the area - on top of the ash deposited by the eruption with buried the ancient city. It was first discovered in 1599, reburied, then rediscovered in 1738. The reason it was rediscovered? A building project for modern Pompei.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#127417 Apr 19, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
rusty, you idiot. Did I ever mention Pompeii? With one i or two i's? Odds are you are wrong about that city too. You have been wrong about everything else so far.
He IS consistent!

;-)

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#127418 Apr 19, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> Truncated
Poor fool
You do have my sympathies...
Nope
Even Ezekiel clearly mentions two aspect to Tyre
Mainland
Ez 26: 6
"...and her settlements on the ==**mainland**== will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord."
Notice the word MAINLAND?
==========
Here's another version from my previous post--->
Did you notice the clear reference to the MAINLAND?
Here it is:
Verse 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword;
==========
Water based-------->
The Tyrians carried off all their wealth to the island
That indeed is the New Tyre
Alexander referred to MAINLAND Tyre as Paleotyros
"Palaetyros" (Old Tyre) to build his great causeway (or "mole") from the mainland out to the island in order to conquer the island where the Tyrians then lived. In doing this his army and the many local people he conscripted as labourers fulfilled the words of 26:12 exactly"
==========
So here we are again
These are your unrealistic demands
1) That Ezekiel prophesied that King Nebuchadrezzar alone would destroy Tyre
You are wrong
Babylon is NOT many nations
Nebuchadrezzar was a Babylonian king
==========
2) That the ancient Phoenician city has been rebuilt
It never has
Neither has Pompeii that is another destroyed ancient city
It has a modern version called Pompei
But Pompeii has not been rebuilt
That is a well accepted fact
==========
You're wrong on both counts
==========
I'm sure you rue the day you met me, you sorry old dog
But at least you can tell you brother that you're doing a Bible study with a fundie creationist...!
==========

Why do you keep beating on this?

You cannot handle the fundamental issues.

1. He did not get into the city.

2. The "prophecy" was written AFTER the events they narrate.

3. The city was not ravaged to the ground.

4.......

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127419 Apr 19, 2013
Russell wrote:
Right
==========
Why do Ezekiel say "many nations" if God, who you're trying to prove wrong only meant Nebuchadrezzar ?
Nebuchadrezzar is NOT many nations
He was Babylonian
Why does Ezekiel say many nations?
Why?
Because Nebby had allies.

This is a very important point. It says "many nations" but all of the fighters are Nebby's. It always refers to things that Nebby will do and what HIS men will do.

He was the head of the many nations.

For the exceedingly slow rusty. Alex the much better than average and his men definitely were NOT NEBBY's MEN.

Let's quote some verses to the idiot:

Ezekiel 26 7: For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.

Who was going to attack from the north? That's right Nebby.

26 8: He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.

Who will wipe out the land based settlements and build a siege work to the island city.

That's right, again "He" it must be Nebby. Did he do the latter? Not really. It is already looking a bit shaky.

26 9: He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.

Nebby.

26 10: His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through.

Oh, oh. This still refers to Nebby. Did he do these things to Tyre? Nope. I wish I knew Australian geography, but mistaking the sister cites for Tyre, which from context is what is being talked about here, would be as stupid of an error as mistaking Newark New Jersey for New York, New York. You know the sort of idiotic mistake the a Christian Fundamentalist would make.

26 11: The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground.

Hmm, still taking about Nebby and the island city of Tyre. Where does it mention Alex?

26 12: They will plunder your wealth and loot your merchandise; they will break down your walls and demolish your fine houses and throw your stones, timber and rubble into the sea.

Ah, the first mention of the infamous "they". But since this was talking about Nebby and his men attacking Tyre it is pretty clear to all but the brain dead that "they" are Nebby and HIS men.

26 13: I will put an end to your noisy songs, and the music of your harps will be heard no more.

We are almost done rusty.

26 14: I will make you a bare rock, and you will become a place to spread fishnets. You will never be rebuilt, for I the LORD have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD.

Oops, there we go. That is pretty much it. "You will never be rebuilt". Sorry rusty, your improper definition of rebilt does not hold up. Tyre was rebuilt, we know that because there IS a modern city there today. Just like you admitted earlier. That is sort of the definition of "rebuilt".

Notice, nothing taken out of context, nothing up my sleeve. No mention of anyone else being in charge of this attack than Nebby, from context it is clear that he is the leader of the attack. He was a "king of kings" that means when he attacks he is attacking with other kings.

You do not get to move the goal posts 250 years down the road.

The prophesy fails on several points.

Nebby did not defeat Tyre.

Even if we let you cheat Alex did not wipe it out.

It was rebuilt from the unpredicted attacker.

It repeated fails. One of the worst prophesies in the Bible.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127420 Apr 19, 2013
Russell wrote:
Here's another site unequivocally stating there was an island Tyre and an "Old" mainland Tyre
http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/battleswa...
No, your article only mentions the city of Tyre. You know, the one in the ocean.

rusty cannot even read his own sources.

What a Maroon.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#127421 Apr 19, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Been working on it with what spare time I may have. Are you trying to build a case that DNA is a computer code?
<quoted text>
I picture more of a scrawny, little pip-squeek wetting his pants.
Isn't the DNA coding sequence random? So it a pattern in reality and not like a code that carries a message.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127422 Apr 19, 2013
I see as I work backwards that rusty is now trying to claim that the island city is not the Tyre of Zeke's prophecy.

Hmm, let's see what old Zeke has to say about that:

Ezekiel 26 5 and 6: 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.

Please note, the city is "out in the sea". It is an island. The land based sister cities are not Tyre they are "her settlements on the mainland".


Since I already covered the body of the prophesy let's jump more toward the end:

Zeke 26 19-21: 19 “This is what the Sovereign Lord says: When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you, 20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of long ago. I will make you dwell in the earth below, as in ancient ruins, with those who go down to the pit, and you will not return or take your place[c] in the land of the living. 21 I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign Lord.”

Now not only is the island city supposed to be desolate, never built upon again, it is supposed to be covered by the sea. The vast waters of the ocean are supposed to be over this island city.

That does not even go with rusty's version of this fairy tale. Oh my, does that make rusty guilty of blasphemy?

It is clear that the Tyre that was to be attacked was the island city. The land based towns were called "its settlements" and had a different fate than the island.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127423 Apr 19, 2013
Hopefully that problem was over with for a while. Though I doubt it.

There is a terrible force in the stupid. It boils up in its victims until they have to share it with everybody.

If rusty would only read his God Damn Bible instead of listening to lying fundamentalist liars he might have a chance. That probably won't happen, rusty probably likes those fundamentalist liars.

rusty, when you read the prophesy in context it can only apply to Nebby and the island kingdom. It fails. You want to change it from what it obviously says and the excuse that "if you don't change what the prophecy says then it will fail" is not a good enough excuse. Yes, it is the excuse that apologetics use, but then they are using any means possible to prove the Bible "true".

If you apply those standards almost any work of fiction could be considered to be true. By the standards you use Harry Potter could be considered to be true. Are real places name? Yep, must be true. Real countries? Yep. Real people? Well at least real by title, we don't know their name very often. So yep, I guess that Harry Potter must be as true as the Bible.

There you go, see what happens when you let the stupid even a little bit lose? Your problem is that the stupid is loose in your brain almost all of the time.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#127424 Apr 19, 2013
Sodom & Gomorrah found! This righteous judgement of sin and destruction of these cities actually happened and in addition to Biblical, has archaeological evidence to support it.

"The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a certain fact in history. The Genesis account is in narrative form and is alluded to by several Old Testament writers. Jesus Himself obviously believed it and in fact was an eyewitness as the pre-incarnate Lord." (See Matthew 11:23-24; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:12 and 17:28-32.

http://www.icr.org/article/7312/

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127425 Apr 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Sodom & Gomorrah found! This righteous judgement of sin and destruction of these cities actually happened and in addition to Biblical, has archaeological evidence to support it.
"The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a certain fact in history. The Genesis account is in narrative form and is alluded to by several Old Testament writers. Jesus Himself obviously believed it and in fact was an eyewitness as the pre-incarnate Lord." (See Matthew 11:23-24; Mark 6:11; Luke 10:12 and 17:28-32.
http://www.icr.org/article/7312/
Even the utter imbeciles at ICR say "might" have been found.

It is just another myth from your book of justso stories.

See if you can find a real scholar that makes this claim.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127426 Apr 19, 2013
Hah, I read Urb's article and found this nice bit of nonsense at the end:

"Creation geologist Dr. Steve Austin studied the geological evidence, including the fault zone, the burn layer, the bitumen that erupted, and the city’s calamitous fall to its ruin."

Steve Austin is of course a joke in geological circles. Bitumen or asphalt is not a product of volcanic eruptions.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#127427 Apr 19, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Even the utter imbeciles at ICR say "might" have been found.
It is just another myth from your book of justso stories.
See if you can find a real scholar that makes this claim.
I guess you didn't understand what "The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a certain fact in history" means. Does the author leave any doubt? No - of course not. How are these not real scholars? Or are you just a bitter liar? I knew this one would hit particularly hard for the gay-homosexuals as that is the reason they were destroyed and also the basis for law against Sodomy (Gross!).

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