Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 | Posted by: Cash | Full story: www.scientificblogging.com

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."
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“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#127381 Apr 18, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually from an aerodynamic perspective sails can act either as propellers or turbines. When a sailboat is on a downwind reach it is acting as a propeller. The wind will be moving faster relative to the sail after interacting with it. When a sailboat is on an upwind tack it is acting as a turbine, the wind moves slower relative to the sail after it interacts with it. In both cases the wind moves slower relative to the ground after interacting with the sails.
If you consider the path of any point on the propeller you will find that it takes a corkscrew path through the air. If you "unrolled" that corkscrew into a straight line you would see that the path is always one at a constant angle to the wind, exactly the same as a boat on a downwind reach.
This is extremely counterintuitive. The man who has the official record will even readily admit that he may not have been the first one to travel directly downwind faster than the wind. A man did it in the sixties, but his indicators were simple yarn tell tales that could be argued to be in the path of the rotors acceleration of the wind.
Here is video of possibly the first ever DDWFTTW vehicle. Turn up your speakers:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =dAkJ_QVbloQXX
Actually, I have less problem understanding how the cart could go upwind (against the wind) using a propeller or turbine. It's just that going down wind, I would expect a "zero" crossing point as the cart goes from being pushed by the wind to "pushing on the wind" using power from the wheels and with no apparent airflow across the propeller. Once going faster than the wind, I can believe and possibly model sustaining the propulsion, it's just getting past the passive, being pushed mode, to the actively pushing using energy from wheel motion and airflow that is giving me the most trouble.

I am beginning to suspect an "assist" of some sort to cross that "zero point". If I am right about that, it wouldn't be cheating ... much ... but it would mean going faster than the wind downwind would not be possible without artificial assist at some point.

Again, I haven't carefully modeled it, all thumbnail speculation at this point.
Urban Cowboy

Bel Air, MD

#127382 Apr 18, 2013
Hey Mugwump, you guys getting hit hard by the DDoS attacks?
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#127383 Apr 18, 2013
CONT--->

PART 4

----------

It is to this island Tyre location that Alexander....part of the "many nations" prophesy......build his giant causeway

In doing this his army and the many local people he conscripted as labourers fulfilled the words of 26:12 exactly:

"And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water."

==========

The prophetic words there are amazingly precise with respect to their fulfillment

==========

Alexander's scheme - the causeway he built from the ruins of Old Tyre allowed his army to cross the sea channel (with water on left hand and right hand) on what he had made into dry ground.

As a result he seized the island of (New) Tyre, and took the wealth which its people had thought was safe in the fortress.
==========

The conclusion is that Ezekiel's words have in fact been fulfilled for over 2300 years, and are still true today.

==========

Compare the location of present day modern Tyre to the location shown here on the site of ancient Tyre

http://maps.google.com/maps...

Zoom out to see the townships adjacent to the barren and desolate area between the road and the beach

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/image.axd...
==========

I would love to see the ancient Temple of Heracles

Unfortunately

It was never rebuilt

==========

Difficulties in Unearthing Remains from the Tyre of Ezekiel’s Day

Katzenstein describes some of the marine archaeological research of the massive harbor installations that are now under water (1997: 11–17).

Aubet mentions that Tyre lay at the center of a line of reefs that made up the harbor, which are now under water.

This has been due to erosion, human intervention and a rise in the sea level over the past 300 years.

Alexander’s mole also interrupted water currents, and some of the structures from that mole are now under water (Aubet 1993: 153).

When excavations are undertaken, it is as if the Tyre of Ezekiel’s day never existed (Gibson and Negev 2001: 519, 520).

THUS --->
IT IS AS IF THE TYRE OF EZEKIEL'S DAY ======NEVER===== existed

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/12/...

==========
By the way

I know you're desperate

But there are no time limits on Ezekiel's prophesy

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#127384 Apr 18, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Here it is folks.....
The death throes....
This could take hours........EVEN days
This is the exact established pattern...incl timeline...of how SZ carries on when proven wrong
Agonizing denials...
Fixation on particular words..
Misreading of facts....
And the whining.......Oh heavens to betsy...
What a chore!
Listen slug
Every bit of Ezekiel's prophesy has been true
Ancient Tyre was never rebuilt
What you're suggesting is absurd
But such is your inability to think straight when being shown to be wrong
Its elephant external testicles all over again
==========
These are your unrealistic demands
1) That Ezekiel prophesied that King Nebuchadrezzar alone would destroy Tyre
2) That the ancient Phoenician city has been rebuilt
You're wrong on both counts
==========
Here's the Scripture verse from Bible Gateway
Ezekiel 26
New International Version (NIV)
A Prophecy Against Tyre
26 In the eleventh month of the twelfth[a] year, on the first day of the month, the word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, because Tyre has said of Jerusalem,‘Aha! The gate to the nations is broken, and its doors have swung open to me; now that she lies in ruins I will prosper,’ 3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the Lord.
----------
As you see
It is in Verse 3 that God clearly states that He will bring many nations against Tyre
Here is the verse:
Ez 26:3
3 therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.
==========
Please carefully note: "Many Nations"
==========
No where does God say He was going to utterly destroy Tyre by Nebuchadnezzar ALONE
The scriptures do not say that
Why?
Because God did not say that
==========
God said ===***MANY NATIONS**==
...And how was the destruction going to be achieved?
Via many nations incl the Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar
He's the "he" in the versus Ez 26:7-11
Here they are:
NEXT POST

You are getting increasingly irrational.

Nebuchadnezzar never got into the city of Tyre.

Game, set and match.


Never mind most of the other things you said were totally wrong, but this one fact alone proves you wrong.

Not only is your argument wrong, but it is completely unnecessary, as I have pointed out.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#127385 Apr 18, 2013
Russell wrote:
CONT-->
PART 2
Here are the verses pertaining to King Nebuchadnezzar
He's the "he" in these following verses
----------
Ezekiel 26: 7-11
New International Version (NIV)
A Prophecy Against Tyre
7 “For this is what the Sovereign Lord says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar[b] king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.
8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword; he will set up siege works against you, build a ramp up to your walls and raise his shields against you.
9 He will direct the blows of his battering rams against your walls and demolish your towers with his weapons.
10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust. Your walls will tremble at the noise of the warhorses, wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city whose walls have been broken through.
11 The hooves of his horses will trample all your streets; he will kill your people with the sword, and your strong pillars will fall to the ground.
==========
Any issues with the above?
Did anything mentioned there NOT come to pass?
==========
No it was ALL FULFILLED
==========
Did you notice the clear reference to the MAINLAND?
Here it is:
Verse 8 He will ravage your settlements on the mainland with the sword;
==========
The Tyrians carried off all their wealth to the island
That indeed is the New Tyre
Alexander referred to mainland Tyre as Paleotyros
"Palaetyros" (Old Tyre) to build his great causeway (or "mole") from the mainland out to the island in order to conquer the island where the Tyrians then lived. In doing this his army and the many local people he conscripted as labourers fulfilled the words of 26:12 exactly"
==========
So now we have two locations and utterly fulfilled prophesies
==========
Let's turn to the next verses
Here we see the destruction wrought by the MANY NATIONS excluding Nebuchadnezzar
The many nations are the "they" in the following verses

verses 9-11 never happened.

Again, what you are saying indicated that you have not examined the information we have provided you.

Why did you ignore it?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127386 Apr 18, 2013
You missed rusty.

This is the location of ancient and present day Tyre:

https://maps.google.com/maps...

Notice, all but a small part of it is inhabited.

Don't you even know where Tyre is, or the history of Tyre.

What a Maroon:

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#127387 Apr 18, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
What do you think of the fulfilled prophesies of Ezekiel?

You mean the one that was written 30 years after the fact and that he STILL got wrong? That prophesy?

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#127388 Apr 18, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, I have less problem understanding how the cart could go upwind (against the wind) using a propeller or turbine. It's just that going down wind, I would expect a "zero" crossing point as the cart goes from being pushed by the wind to "pushing on the wind" using power from the wheels and with no apparent airflow across the propeller. Once going faster than the wind, I can believe and possibly model sustaining the propulsion, it's just getting past the passive, being pushed mode, to the actively pushing using energy from wheel motion and airflow that is giving me the most trouble.
I am beginning to suspect an "assist" of some sort to cross that "zero point". If I am right about that, it wouldn't be cheating ... much ... but it would mean going faster than the wind downwind would not be possible without artificial assist at some point.
Again, I haven't carefully modeled it, all thumbnail speculation at this point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_faster_t...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127389 Apr 18, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, I have less problem understanding how the cart could go upwind (against the wind) using a propeller or turbine. It's just that going down wind, I would expect a "zero" crossing point as the cart goes from being pushed by the wind to "pushing on the wind" using power from the wheels and with no apparent airflow across the propeller. Once going faster than the wind, I can believe and possibly model sustaining the propulsion, it's just getting past the passive, being pushed mode, to the actively pushing using energy from wheel motion and airflow that is giving me the most trouble.
I am beginning to suspect an "assist" of some sort to cross that "zero point". If I am right about that, it wouldn't be cheating ... much ... but it would mean going faster than the wind downwind would not be possible without artificial assist at some point.
Again, I haven't carefully modeled it, all thumbnail speculation at this point.
Nope, no cheating. Did you understand the concept of the treadmill being the equivalent of a wind tunnel test for an airplane part. If the cart stays exactly in place it is the same as going exactly at the speed of the wind. If it goes to the front of the treadmill it is going faster than the wind, if it falls off of the back it is going slower than the wind.

I would have to do some searching, but somewhere there are mathematical formulas that analyze the forces. They show that it is theoretically possible, assuming certain inefficiencies. Of course theory and practice are not the same thing. The models show that it is not only theoretically possible it is physically possible.

The NALSA officials checked out the vehicle very thoroughly. They understand sailing very well and were not afraid to put their stamp of approval on it.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#127390 Apr 18, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope
Neither has Pompeii
There is a modern Pompei---> spelt with one 'i'
Its near Naples
Are you claiming, therefore, that ancient Pompeii is rebuilt?

They are not the same city, in the same location, with the same name, with continuous inhabitation.

They are different cities, with different names, populated at different times.

Tyre is, as we have seen, the same city, in the same location.....


Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127391 Apr 18, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
You missed rusty.
This is the location of ancient and present day Tyre:
https://maps.google.com/maps...
Notice, all but a small part of it is inhabited.
Don't you even know where Tyre is, or the history of Tyre.
What a Maroon:http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=C_Kh7nLplWoXX
Oh crap, I missed too.

Tyre is the peninsula that sticks out into the Mediterranean.

If you look at it you can see that over 2/3 of the peninsula is occupied. About a third of it is ruins.

Tyre was an island until Alex the Great built a causeway. The causeway changed the local currents and it filled in. Now it is no longer an island. Ancient Tyre was an island.

Your own article, in fact the parts that you quoted TWICE said that they built over the old city.

Tyre has been rebuilt.

Hmm, you say there was no time limit on the prophesy. Maybe so, of course it was predicted that Nebby would defeat Tyre, Nebby and his men. Perhaps they will return and finish the job. I have my doubts. Until then it is a failed prophecy.
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#127392 Apr 18, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
verses 9-11 never happened.
Again, what you are saying indicated that you have not examined the information we have provided you.
Why did you ignore it?
Dogem provides Dodgy information

How did the prophesies of verses 9-11 never happen

It was a land based siege

Battering rams were a very common battle weapon

I am intrigued by what false doctrine you are about to amaze me

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127393 Apr 18, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
Thanks.

If you are really interested in this subject here are a couple of links to the buildblog of the Blackbird. The first link is the most recent post, the second is the very first post. By following this you could build your own Blackbird:

http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/

http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/search...

Since I was an active part of the debate I followed this build as it went along. spork also uploaded onto YouTube a series of videos that tell you how to make the small version that they ran on treadmills. Several high school students have done so for science fair projects.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#127394 Apr 18, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
Sailing cross wind (tacking) or even upwind are less problematic than sailing faster than the wind downwind.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#127395 Apr 18, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, no cheating. Did you understand the concept of the treadmill being the equivalent of a wind tunnel test for an airplane part. If the cart stays exactly in place it is the same as going exactly at the speed of the wind. If it goes to the front of the treadmill it is going faster than the wind, if it falls off of the back it is going slower than the wind.
I would have to do some searching, but somewhere there are mathematical formulas that analyze the forces. They show that it is theoretically possible, assuming certain inefficiencies. Of course theory and practice are not the same thing. The models show that it is not only theoretically possible it is physically possible.
The NALSA officials checked out the vehicle very thoroughly. They understand sailing very well and were not afraid to put their stamp of approval on it.
Yes, I did understand the concept, but there are many "assists" possible that would not be included in a write up or obvious from a video .... the HoJo motor being assisted by the battery for example.

From all your videos, I can't determine what the slope of the landscape is, no bubble level was included .... as another example.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127396 Apr 18, 2013
And one last post on DDWFTTW for a while. The propeller does not drive the wheels, the wheels drive the propeller. It is a positive feedback device.

At the start and at very low speeds the body of the cart and the propeller act as bluff body objects, the wind just pushes them directly downwind. As the cart begins to pick up speed the propeller starts to rotte faster and faster and it starts to generate thrust. The faster the cart goes the more air it interacts with and the more power it generates. Yes, it does sound a bit like free energy, but I guarantee you that it does not. In fact one of the two sponsors for the cart was Joby Energy Inc. They hope to make tethered airborne wind generators. The generators would be at the end of a long tether that rotated with several wind generators on it. It would be able to harvest much more energy from the wind than a ground based generator.

Of course the engineering problems with this are huge. Still here is Joby's site:

http://www.jobyenergy.com/

Shortly before he made his record runs the team picked up a second sponsor. I will let you check them out for yourself. It is a small tech startup with the name of Google.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#127397 Apr 18, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope, no cheating. Did you understand the concept of the treadmill being the equivalent of a wind tunnel test for an airplane part. If the cart stays exactly in place it is the same as going exactly at the speed of the wind. If it goes to the front of the treadmill it is going faster than the wind, if it falls off of the back it is going slower than the wind.
I would have to do some searching, but somewhere there are mathematical formulas that analyze the forces. They show that it is theoretically possible, assuming certain inefficiencies. Of course theory and practice are not the same thing. The models show that it is not only theoretically possible it is physically possible.
The NALSA officials checked out the vehicle very thoroughly. They understand sailing very well and were not afraid to put their stamp of approval on it.
The link I posted right before your post explains it, it creates lift that is transferred into forward motion instead of getting airborne, is part the equation.
But it lists lots of craft that sail faster than the wind pushing it. The ice cars is what is most impressive , capable of 5 times the wind speed. Of course sailing on ice is very limited, not many ice roads to go down lol. But here is the ticket Quote.

"In a few words: DDFTTW-carts work by converting forward motion into lateral motion of the airfoil to maintain an aerodynamic lift force in the forward direction."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sailing_faster_t...

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127398 Apr 18, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, I did understand the concept, but there are many "assists" possible that would not be included in a write up or obvious from a video .... the HoJo motor being assisted by the battery for example.
From all your videos, I can't determine what the slope of the landscape is, no bubble level was included .... as another example.
I will see if I can find some that show the treadmill was not running downhill. I don't know if they showed that closeup. I can show you some where the cart is running uphill.

Oh wow! I just found a new one by what looks like a French school girl. The first several runs are without a prop. Then several flat runs with a prop. Then several more with the cart going up a 5% slope and with a prop on. If you note the faster the treadmill goes the better the cart performs. This is equivalent to the wind blowing at a faster speed.

“ The Lord of delirious minds.”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

Location hidden

#127399 Apr 18, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks.
If you are really interested in this subject here are a couple of links to the buildblog of the Blackbird. The first link is the most recent post, the second is the very first post. By following this you could build your own Blackbird:
http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/
http://www.fasterthanthewind.org/search...
Since I was an active part of the debate I followed this build as it went along. spork also uploaded onto YouTube a series of videos that tell you how to make the small version that they ran on treadmills. Several high school students have done so for science fair projects.
I suppose you don't remember we touched this subject before about a year ago. I hadn't heard of the car before then and was fascinated. But I'm still a horrible not anti green power or anything but while this does fascinate me , the SSC Bloodhound and The North American Eagle captivate me. I'm horrible in the respect of those wasting in excess motors that scream bloody hell ..lol

I hope the Eagle gets the LSR back for America, but the bloodhound and it both are shooting for 1000.

http://landspeed.com/project/project-updates

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#127400 Apr 18, 2013
And this video is a bit of an inside joke.

A doubter who did not understand the simple concept of a Galilean Transformation thought that testing a cart against popcorn would be the definitive test (though there is a video of the BUFC charging through a cloud of dust ). Windgrins did many tests for spork after the fact and as a pilot recognized that for the small carts they would be much more stable if the prop was a puller prop rather than a pusher prop.

Here is his famed popcorn test. It still cracks me up, but it might be too much of an inside joke for most:

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