Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 179707 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

Mugwump

Bradford, UK

#126527 Apr 7, 2013
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
That's a lot to ask of random chance...
But is not JUST random chance is it.

Seriously, this is the simple stuff - if you don't understand the basics then how can you pretend you can argue against evolution?
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126528 Apr 7, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
But is not JUST random chance is it.
Seriously, this is the simple stuff - if you don't understand the basics then how can you pretend you can argue against evolution?
What else is it, Mugwump?

Genetic drift?
Random mutations?

It is simple

It is easy to understand

Which is precisely why descent with modification is impossible as an explanation for single celled organisms becoming complex multicellular creatures
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#126529 Apr 7, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Rather, I think it you who is being pigheaded here.
You can see the entire chapter in which this quote is embedded:
http://www.dailylit.com/books/on-the-origin-o...
In this chapter which continues for several pages, Darwin accepts that acquired characteristics may play some role (i.e. which was the current thinking of the time), but he is specifically arguing IN OPPOSITION or at least IN ADDITION that his NEW THEORY of natural selection acting on inherited, not acquired, variation, explains evolution better than this.
You would understand this if you read his whole book instead of relying on creatard site quote mines.
Darwin specifically proposed in Origin of the Species, a NEW theory, a NEW mechanism by which organisms could evolve. You are correct - he did not outright reject Lamarkism, BUT
That was NOT Darwin's theory!
THEREFORE - when you come along as you did and say that the rat's tail experiments specifically debunked Darwin's theory, you are WRONG. Its not pigheaded to say this. Its a fact. Perhaps I overreacted because its just more annoying creationist twisting, I will grant that.
Experiments disproving acquired characteristics do NOT disprove Darwin's theory of natural selection, they disprove Lamarck's theory of acquired characteristics. Darwin would probably shrug and say, OK, well, that's even BETTER for MY theory, evolution by acquired characteristics is completely ruled out!
PS: why do you think Darwin's theory was so revolutionary, if it was not different to what Lamarck and even Aristotle had already proposed? Precisely this. The essential mechanism was different.
PPS: Nested Hierarchy. Don't scream, just try understanding it finally.
Based on his statements, it is clear that Darwin accepted acquired characteristics as one of the mechancisms throughout his lifetime.

I never meant to say it his whole theory of evolution was overturned by the tail-cutting experiment but at least part (AC) of what Darwin thought responsible was.

You said Darwin rejected and even refuted acquired characteristics which couldn't be further from the truth. He stated in his Origins book that these were inherited and in a letter to his cousin he said he believed in it more than ever. It was only several years after his death that the tail-cutting experiment proved acquired characteristics wrong.

(If you thought I said it refuted Darwin's theory of evolution that it is not what I meant to say.) I meant to say it refuted acquired characteristics which should have been obvious. Sorry I called you names but you always start it don't you?

And I promise I won't scream went you go off on your one-trick-pony, nested hierarchies. I just ignore it because - no offense - it's just that it's inconsequential. It sounds good but has no real teeth in it. You need real evidence like fossils and observing macrochange happen. Real evidence. Not comparing similarities which by the way has also been proved wrong.

Why else do you not see "nested hierarchy" used as evidence in peer-reviewed research?

What you really need is fossils of direct ancestors for all plants or animals; what I need is plants and animal fossils first appearing fully formed: I win by a landslide. You need numerous beneficial genetic mutations creating new organs, tissues, function; I need the complete absense of same and evidence of genetic entropy and loss of information resulting in disease which I have a plethora of: I win.

Now moving onto "evolution" of Whales....
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126530 Apr 7, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Tyrannosaurus was a latecomer also, there were many
tyrannosaurus like dinos in the Triassic, Jurassic, and Cretaceous periods. Such as this fellow who lived hundreds of millions of years before T-rex , but is considered a predecessor to the larger theropods.
http://topnews.co.uk/217666-researchers-disco...
Dont you just wish things were easy and seamless in evo-world?

Instead of providing answers that you would just love to be true

".....the new dinosaur fossil has joined a growing list of fossil finds that just do not fit the evolutionary picture"

----------
So

Now Eoraptor has been displaced as an ancestor?

"Evolutionists have variously proposed it as the ancestor of two of the three major groups of dinosaurs: ornithischians, which included the Triceratops and Hadrosaurs; and saurischians, which included sauropods like Apatosaurus, and theropods like Tyrannosaurus."

----------
Interesting.....
----------

"After the discovery of Eodromaeus, Sereno and his colleagues abandoned Eoraptor as the common ancestor of dinosaurs. In a study published in the technical journal Science, the authors said that Eoraptor should now be considered the ancestor of sauropods. This "differs from previous phylogenetic assessments of this early dinosaur as a basal saurischian or basal theropod."

----------
As per-->

http://crev.info/2011/01/cute_dinosaur_forced...

"When interpretation outruns the bones, it’s helpful to go to the original source material. "

Let's check the original paper--->

---Martinez, Sereno, Alcober et al,“A Basal Dinosaur from the Dawn of the Dinosaur Era in Southwestern Pangaea,” Science, 14 January 2011: Vol. 331 no. 6014 pp. 206–210, DOI: 10.1126/science.1198467.

A glaring observation from their chart is decreasing diversity with time.

If we take their long-age interpretation of the formation, the evidence contradicts evolutionary predictions – and their paper basically admits it [bracketed portions added]:

"One explanation for the rise of dinosaurs has been that a few key features led gradually to the competitive dominance of dinosaurs [i.e., traditional Darwinism].

"This view has been overtaken by a hypothesis of noncompetitive replacement [stuff happens], in which their rise is split into two successive episodes of extinction and noncompetitive infilling of vacant ecospace [opportunity-knocks Darwinism].

"In the replacement hypothesis, the earliest dinosaurs are regarded as particularly rare (1 to 3% of terrestrial vertebrates), their abundance and diversity increasing successively at the Carnian-Norian and Triassic-Jurassic boundaries coincident with mass extinction of rhynchosaurs, traversodontid cynodonts, and dicynodonts and later of (noncrocodyliform) crurotarsal archosaurs.

"In contrast, the fossil record from Ischigualasto indicates that early dinosaurs in the latter half of the Carnian (231 to 228 Ma) were more common and diverse than previously thought, equaling the percentage of dinosaurian genera in the late Norian fauna from the overlying Los Colorados Formation (Fig. 4).

"Thus, in terms of taxonomic diversity, dinosaurs did not increase their percentage among terrestrial vertebrates toward the end of the Triassic in southwestern Pangaea"

----------

Not only do theropods have no known non-theropod ancestor, but the study's authors wrote, "The earliest dinosaurs had already evolved the most functionally important trophic and locomotor features characterizing ornithischians, sauropodomorphs, and theropods".

---- Martinez et al, A Basal Dinosaur.

"As such, the suddenness of the occurrence of fully formed dinosaurs, already arrayed into their major categorized forms, is "like a Cambrian radiation in terms of tremendous diversity," according to Sereno

--Parsell, Scientist's Finds Spur New Thinking

----------

Cont.....

“Jon Snow”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

The King in the Nor±h

#126532 Apr 7, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Based on his statements, it is clear that Darwin accepted acquired characteristics as one of the mechancisms throughout his lifetime.
I never meant to say it his whole theory of evolution was overturned by the tail-cutting experiment but at least part (AC) of what Darwin thought responsible was.
You said Darwin rejected and even refuted acquired characteristics which couldn't be further from the truth. He stated in his Origins book that these were inherited and in a letter to his cousin he said he believed in it more than ever. It was only several years after his death that the tail-cutting experiment proved acquired characteristics wrong.
(If you thought I said it refuted Darwin's theory of evolution that it is not what I meant to say.) I meant to say it refuted acquired characteristics which should have been obvious. Sorry I called you names but you always start it don't you?
And I promise I won't scream went you go off on your one-trick-pony, nested hierarchies. I just ignore it because - no offense - it's just that it's inconsequential. It sounds good but has no real teeth in it. You need real evidence like fossils and observing macrochange happen. Real evidence. Not comparing similarities which by the way has also been proved wrong.
Why else do you not see "nested hierarchy" used as evidence in peer-reviewed research?
What you really need is fossils of direct ancestors for all plants or animals; what I need is plants and animal fossils first appearing fully formed: I win by a landslide. You need numerous beneficial genetic mutations creating new organs, tissues, function; I need the complete absense of same and evidence of genetic entropy and loss of information resulting in disease which I have a plethora of: I win.
Now moving onto "evolution" of Whales....
Exactly, and also why you will never find that Precambrian rabbit.
But you creationists still look for the crocoduck.

“Jon Snow”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

The King in the Nor±h

#126533 Apr 7, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Dont you just wish things were easy and seamless in evo-world?
Instead of providing answers that you would just love to be true
".....the new dinosaur fossil has joined a growing list of fossil finds that just do not fit the evolutionary picture"
When we are talking about over 250 million years ago and can only rely on fossils , it is quite a puzzle to figure out.

But we have enough pieces of the puzzle to clearly see that evolution is a fact.
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#126534 Apr 7, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
I looked at Appendix B, dinosaur evolution chart of Werner's "Evolution, the Grand Experiment" and its easy to see the flaw.
In my previous post, the evolution of Tyrannosauroids is discussed, along with the trends and changes occurring over many millions of years. Increase in size, reduction of the forelimbs and number of toes etc...but in the books chart, its just lumped the whole 78 specimens as "Tyrannosaurs" as if they were all the same and there was no progression. Its simply false.
That would be like throwing all the apes and hominid fossils we have together and saying that they are all the same thing, regardless of when dated, any trends, etc.
So of course there is no progression - if you ignore the progression!
What progression?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#126535 Apr 7, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
When we are talking about over 250 million years ago and can only rely on fossils , it is quite a puzzle to figure out.
But we have enough pieces of the puzzle to clearly see that evolution is a fact.
Yes, the process of evolution left a spotty hole filled record. The problem for creationists is that the holes keep getting filled by fossils that fit the evolutionary paradigm and creationists have yet to come up with even a hypothesis that explains the fossil record from a creationist point of view.

In other words creationists have nothing and yet they still dare to complain about the evidence for evolution.

Can you say "hypocrite"?
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#126536 Apr 7, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
I looked at Appendix B, dinosaur evolution chart of Werner's "Evolution, the Grand Experiment" and its easy to see the flaw.
The chart is from the Chicago Field Museum. All the zeros marked on all the branches leading to the far right-hand side where all the dinosaurs are listed were provided by the experts themselves. Are you saying all the experts are wrong? That you have direct ancestor fossils that they don't know about? Come on man, give me a break.
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#126537 Apr 7, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, the process of evolution left a spotty hole filled record. The problem for creationists is that the holes keep getting filled by fossils that fit the evolutionary paradigm and creationists have yet to come up with even a hypothesis that explains the fossil record from a creationist point of view.
In other words creationists have nothing and yet they still dare to complain about the evidence for evolution.
Can you say "hypocrite"?
It's quite the opposite. We have everything and you have nothing. Every fossil ever found made its first appearance fully formed. If creation is true that is what we would expect. That's millions of fossils to our credit. What do you have? Not a single true transitional. A million to one in our favor.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#126538 Apr 7, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
It's quite the opposite. We have everything and you have nothing. Every fossil ever found made its first appearance fully formed. If creation is true that is what we would expect. That's millions of fossils to our credit. What do you have? Not a single true transitional. A million to one in our favor.
Breaking the Ninth Commandment again.

So what is the testable hypothesis for creation?

What do you mean by that nonsense term "fully formed"? As others have pointed out you don't understand evolution and expect a crocoduck.

We have thousands of transitional fossils, you have a bias against them. What is wrong with the transitional fossils you have been linked to you countless times?
LowellGuy

United States

#126539 Apr 7, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
It's quite the opposite. We have everything and you have nothing. Every fossil ever found made its first appearance fully formed. If creation is true that is what we would expect. That's millions of fossils to our credit. What do you have? Not a single true transitional. A million to one in our favor.
The "fully formed" bit is nothing more than a misrepresentation
of what evolution is.

“There is no such thing”

Level 3

Since: May 08

as a reasonable person

#126540 Apr 7, 2013
nanoanomaly wrote:
<quoted text>when I was a kid there was this woman who lived in our town who cut her baby's head off and mounted it on the tip a shower curtain rod in her front yard for everybody to see. When the cops asked her why she did it she said, "Satan told me to do it!" I hope she's never allowed to be alone with little kids ever again.
Personally, I doubt that any kind of mental disease is curable, just treatable, manageable.
Want to see something interesting on that point?
Folie à Deux
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126541 Apr 8, 2013
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
When we are talking about over 250 million years ago and can only rely on fossils , it is quite a puzzle to figure out.
But we have enough pieces of the puzzle to clearly see that evolution is a fact.
Perhaps you mean the puzzle of dino soft tissues?
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126542 Apr 8, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, the process of evolution left a spotty hole filled record. The problem for creationists is that the holes keep getting filled by fossils that fit the evolutionary paradigm and creationists have yet to come up with even a hypothesis that explains the fossil record from a creationist point of view.
In other words creationists have nothing and yet they still dare to complain about the evidence for evolution.
Can you say "hypocrite"?
Actually it was the process of rapid burial that left a fossil record

It is entirely consistent with creationism

It has not one iota of support for evolutionism.....NONE

Fully formed creatures

Total stasis

No ancestors

Just as predicted by the creation model
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126543 Apr 8, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Breaking the Ninth Commandment again.
So what is the testable hypothesis for creation?
What do you mean by that nonsense term "fully formed"? As others have pointed out you don't understand evolution and expect a crocoduck.
We have thousands of transitional fossils, you have a bias against them. What is wrong with the transitional fossils you have been linked to you countless times?
Where are your "thousands of transitionals"?

I've been bleating like an idiot for just ONE...for months and months..

All we have is stasis

Time and time and time and time again....STASIS

I have asked Chimney, which animals have actually evolved

All I got was stony silence

Like I got from you in regards to Adam and Eve being demonstrated as 'fly-in-your-face-Ayala' possible when HLA-DRB introns 1-4 are used

Just ignoring me...won't make me go away....SubDud

Your chicanery is quite transparent

Shreiking Borons could be years before they get their finger out and produce something that could even remotely help you....
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126544 Apr 8, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
What progression?
I absolutely second that
Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Miami, FL

#126545 Apr 8, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
The "fully formed" bit is nothing more than a misrepresentation
of what evolution is.
Reality is a misrepresentation of what evolution is? Agreed!

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#126546 Apr 8, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>Archaeology and history proves the bibles truthfulness and it has been remarkably well preserved. My God is the living God of Israel and I serve no other. Are you a Christian?
By your logic, Spiderman must be a real person. Try again.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#126547 Apr 8, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Where are your "thousands of transitionals"?
I've been bleating like an idiot for just ONE...for months and months..
All we have is stasis
Time and time and time and time again....STASIS
I have asked Chimney, which animals have actually evolved
All I got was stony silence
Like I got from you in regards to Adam and Eve being demonstrated as 'fly-in-your-face-Ayala' possible when HLA-DRB introns 1-4 are used
Just ignoring me...won't make me go away....SubDud
Your chicanery is quite transparent
Shreiking Borons could be years before they get their finger out and produce something that could even remotely help you....
Archaeopteryx: bird or dinosaur?

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