Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 20 comments on the Feb 24, 2008, www.scientificblogging.com story titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

Mugwump

Bradford, UK

#126272 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
You're doing well Mugwump....you're doing well
Now all you have to do is leave Pudsey....I don't like the sound of that place....
Become a creationist Christian....
And all will be well with you....FINALLY
Actually, live about 10 miles down the road - GPS ain't all that.

And become a creationist ? Nah find it hard to lie so much without shame

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#126273 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
My country and your's were founded on Christianity and not leprechauns with live dacshunds up their noses
You mean the country founded by these guys?

"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."
Thomas Jefferson

"lighthouses are more useful than churches" - Benjamin Franklin

The same guys who came up with the first amendment;

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

AND the same guys who in the Treaty of Tripoli said,

"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

Looks to me that you are lying again Godbutt.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126274 Apr 2, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text> Magic is from the dark side of the force, the occult. The sorcerers in Egypt could duplicate almost everything Moses and God did, except when it came to life and death, that belongs solely to God. There is no "magic" in what God did, it was miraculous.

The height of rationalization is the redefinition of words to mean what the rationalizer needs them to mean.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126275 Apr 2, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, but Moses serpent ate it.

Of course. His people wrote the story!

Duh!

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#126276 Apr 2, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
How about *THIS* for an alternate ending to the new testiment:
<<begin cut/paste>>
Tomb of Jesus Christ (in Japan)
Shing&#333; village (Japan) is the location of what is purported to be the last resting place of Jesus, located in the "Tomb of Jesus" (Kirisuto no haka), and the residence of Jesus' last descendants, the family of Sajiro Sawaguchi.[1] According to the Sawaguchi family's claims, Jesus Christ did not die on the cross at Golgotha. Instead his brother, Isukiri,[2] took his place on the cross, while Jesus fled across Siberia to Mutsu Province, in northern Japan. Once in Japan, he became a rice farmer, married, and raised a family with three daughters near what is now Shing&#333;. While in Japan, it is asserted that he traveled, learned, and eventually died at the age of 106. His body was exposed on a hilltop for four years. According to the customs of the time, Jesus' bones were collected, bundled, and buried in the mound purported to be the grave of Jesus Christ.[3][4]
Another mound near the alleged grave of Jesus is said to contain an ear of the brother of Jesus and a lock of hair from Mary, the mother of Jesus, the only relics of his family Jesus could carry when he fled Judaea.[5] The claims started in 1933 after the discovery of supposed "ancient Hebrew documents detailing Jesus' life and death in Japan" [6] that was supposedly the testament of Jesus. These documents were allegedly seized by the Japanese authorities and taken to Tokyo shortly before World War II and have not been seen since.[7]
The English text on the sign explaining the legend of the Tomb of Christ reads <<picture shown>>:
"When Jesus Christ was 21 years old, he came to Japan and pursued knowledge of divinity for 12 years. He went back to Judea at age 33 and engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in Judea would not accept Christ's preaching. Instead, they arrested him and tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, Isukiri casually took Christ's place and ended his life on the cross. Christ, who escaped the crucifixion, went through the ups and downs of travel, and again came to Japan. He settled right here in what is now called Herai Village, and died at the age of 106. On this holy ground, there is dedicated a burial mound on the right to deify Christ, and a grave on the left to deify Isukiri."
<<end cut/paste>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shing%C5%8D,_Aom...
In some of my earlier travels, I've had occasion to visit Muslim "museums" .... invariably, there were "foot prints of Mohammed", "hair clippings of Mohammed" and various other Mohammed artifacts including shoes and other bits of clothing.

I think it fascinating that Mohammed had a calico beard and several different sized feet.
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#126277 Apr 2, 2013
Igor Trip wrote:
<quoted text>
Biologists create self-replicating RNA molecule
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharps...
Do you even understand what has been done?

"tC19 showed a template sequence dependence incompatible with it being a general RNA polymerase ribozyme. Selection for template sequence generality was done starting with a 7.5*107 member library of randomized R18 variants. This library was subjected to CBT using two sequence distinct RNA primer extension templates, which yielded Z, a ribozyme harbouring four point mutations that together decreased template restrictions. These mutations were combined with those of tC19 thus generating tC19Z. tC19Z showed a further reduced average error rate of 8.8*10&#8722;3 per nucleotide position, and also proved superior to R18, C19, Z and tC19 ribozymes in terms of RNA polymerase activity and generality (although its potential in producing RNAs &#8805; 95 nt was not reported). tC19Z was used to produce a 24 nt hammerhead minizyme by primer extension of a 5&#8242; fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC) labeled primer. When challenged with its substrate, this FITC labeled RNA minizyme proved cleavage proficient to the same extent as the FITC-labeled control hammerhead ribozyme made by solid phase synthesis. These results demonstrate replication combined with conservation of function—a probable key feature of an ancient RNA based self-sustained system.

The new ribozymes described differ from present day protein RNA polymerases in several respects, as well as lacking protein. Cellular RNA polymerases are efficient showing both a high propensity to remain associated with its transcript in the elongation complex (processivity) and rapid elongation rates of typically &#8764;200 nt/s (at 37°C) in the case of bacteriophage RNA polymerases. In comparison, tC19 synthesized RNAs of maximally 95 nt in a typical period of 24 h corresponding to &#8764;1*10&#8722;3 nt/s (at 17°C). Cellular RNA polymerases also show a higher fidelity (in part due to proofreading) with an estimated error rate of <10&#8722;5 per nucleotide position for bacterial and eukaryotic RNA polymerases.3 Finally, cellular RNA polymerases initiate RNA synthesis at the site of template recognition (the promoter), do not require a primer, and employ a double-stranded DNA template. Perhaps the closest parallel to the described ribozymes is found among RNA vira that express RNA dependent RNA polymerases, some of which utilize a primer.

A truly self-replicating RNA polymerase ribozyme based system would require that the ribozyme fully replicate its own RNA gene (unlike present day DNA dependent RNA polymerases that do not transcribe the promoter region), including any ssC19 type docking sites on the template. The encoding RNA gene would have to be relatively unstructured to allow efficient primer extension of the entire sequence, and there would need to be a mechanism for strand separation to enable replicative turnover. Even if these requirements can be met, the present ribozymes capable of maximally synthesizing a 95 nt RNA transcript would still fall short of copying their own gene of 187 nt thus precluding their immediate use for self-sustained replication. Recognising that complex requirements remain to achieve a fully operative self replicating system, it is appropriate to praise the achievements of Wochner et al. 2011,1 which on the tenth anniversary of the birth of R182 have provided a great technological leap and renewed interest in a fascinating and challenging area."

Don't just buy into the 'popular science' hype...

READ!

Engineering a synthetic ribozyme capable of replicating half the length of a RNA strand is NOT evidence of abiogenesis invoking a RNA world

AND, tC19Z cannot synthesize something of its own size in a reasonable amount of time.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3...

Grow up and grow a brain

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126278 Apr 2, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text> Is it natural for a body that's been dead for 3 or 4 days to suddenly get up and walk? If so. why do we embalm people after they've been dead for a matter of hours and then cremate and/or bury them?

No, but it is pretty natural for people to go into comas. There have been many stories of people being buried alive.

Partial list of gods raised from the dead:
Ugaritic
Baal
Melqart
Adonis
Eshmun
Osiris
Dumuzi.

Partial list of Non gods raised from the dead
Asclepius
Achillies
Alcmene
Castor
Heracles
Melicertes

Others were made immortal without having died.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection#Anc...

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126279 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
My country and your's were founded on Christianity and not leprechauns with live dacshunds up their noses

That is not entirely true. Many, if not most, of the founding fathers were deists.

Don't claim otherwise without looking up FACTS first.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126280 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
You're doing well Mugwump....you're doing well
Now all you have to do is leave Pudsey....I don't like the sound of that place....
Become a creationist Christian....
And all will be well with you....FINALLY

Or he could become a sane and rational Christian.

In spite of idea one might get in viewing the fundies on this forum, there actually is such a thing.
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#126281 Apr 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you don't have any knowledge or understanding of science, you taking shots at my understanding comes up empty.
molecular homology is well supported science.
molecular homology does not support I.D.
Nothing supports I.D.(at least to date).
P1. Cyt-C Exists.
P2. Anything that exists is possible.
C: Therefore: Cyt-C is possible.
We call that "scientific logic".
Schooled!
Yawn....
Whats your explanation for orphan genes?

----------

By the way
Cyt C is a crazy hodge podge of ridiculous nonsense fabricated to keep evo-tards content in their blinkers-on, deluded belief in something that never happens

Chimney has discussed this with me at length ages ago

And then he went off saying he would look into my claim that reptile Cyt C was purposely "left out" of Cyt C phylogenetic trees
.......I have heard nothing since

One snippet from several--->

“For example, human and tuna(very distant relatives in evolutionary terms) have 20 differences, while close relatives like humans and horses already have 12 differences.

Here are a few more funny relationships:

"Rattlesnake cytochrome c is closer to human (14 differences) than to rhesus monkey (15), dog (21), penguin (30), or even a fellow reptile, the snapping turtle (22)! Human beings are closer to the peking duck (11) than to a fellow mammal, the horse (12). Tomatoes and sunflowers appear closer to human than to other mammal, reptile, amphibian, fish, insect, or yeast.

"Mammals are said to have evolved from reptiles; these came from amphibians, and they arose from fish. By cytochrome c comparison, however, the dog as one extreme example is closer to carp (a fish) than to rattlesnake (reptile) or bullfrog (amphibian).

"The data show that in closely related organisms, the corresponding place in the chain may be occupied by amino acids which differ greatly in size, acidity, and electrical properties. Some of the differences, moreover, would have required multiple mutations in the same codon to evolve one from the other - in the face of the laws of probability." (Citation: Coppedge (1973))”
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#126282 Apr 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
No, but it is pretty natural for people to go into comas. There have been many stories of people being buried alive.
Partial list of gods raised from the dead:
Ugaritic
Baal
Melqart
Adonis
Eshmun
Osiris
Dumuzi.
Partial list of Non gods raised from the dead
Asclepius
Achillies
Alcmene
Castor
Heracles
Melicertes
Others were made immortal without having died.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection#Anc...
None of them could pass a jury scrutiny in court as the death and resurrection of Jesus can

Indeed
None of them have had entire nations base their constitutions and political systems on their teachings

Only Jesus

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126283 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you even understand what has been done?
"tC19 showed a template sequence dependence incompatible with it being a general RNA polymerase ribozyme. Selection for template sequence generality was done starting with a 7.5*107 member library of randomized R18 variants. This library was subjected to CBT using two sequence distinct RNA primer extension templates, which yielded Z, a ribozyme harbouring four point mutations that together decreased template restrictions. These mutations were combined with those of tC19 thus generating tC19Z. tC19Z showed a further reduced average error rate of 8.8*10&#8722;3 per nucleotide position, and also proved superior to R18, C19, Z and tC19 ribozymes in terms of RNA polymerase activity and generality (although its potential in producing RNAs &#8805; 95 nt was not reported). tC19Z was used to produce a 24 nt hammerhead minizyme by primer extension of a 5&#8242; fluorescein isothiocyanate (FITC) labeled primer. When challenged with its substrate, this FITC labeled RNA minizyme proved cleavage proficient to the same extent as the FITC-labeled control hammerhead ribozyme made by solid phase synthesis. These results demonstrate replication combined with conservation of function—a probable key feature of an ancient RNA based self-sustained system.
The new ribozymes described differ from present day protein RNA polymerases in several respects, as well as lacking protein. Cellular RNA polymerases are efficient showing both a high propensity to remain associated with its transcript in the elongation complex (processivity) and rapid elongation rates of typically &#8764;200 nt/s (at 37°C) in the case of bacteriophage RNA polymerases. In comparison, tC19 synthesized RNAs of maximally 95 nt in a typical period of 24 h corresponding to &#8764;1*10&#8722;3 nt/s (at 17°C). Cellular RNA polymerases also show a higher fidelity (in part due to proofreading) with an estimated error rate of <10&#8722;5 per nucleotide position for bacterial and eukaryotic RNA polymerases.3 Finally, cellular RNA polymerases initiate RNA synthesis at the site of template recognition (the promoter), do not require a primer, and employ a double-stranded DNA template. Perhaps the closest parallel to the described ribozymes is found among RNA vira that express RNA dependent RNA polymerases, some of which utilize a primer.
A truly self-replicating RNA polymerase ribozyme based system would require that the ribozyme fully replicate its own RNA gene (unlike present day DNA dependent RNA polymerases that do not transcribe the promoter region), including any ssC19 type docking sites on the template. The encoding RNA gene would have to be relatively unstructured to allow efficient primer extension of the entire sequence, and there would need to be a mechanism for strand separation to enable replicative turnover. Even if these requirements can be met, the present ribozymes capable of maximally synthesizing a 95 nt RNA transcript would still fall short of copying their own gene of 187 nt thus precluding their immediate use for self-sustained replication. Recognising that complex requirements remain to achieve a fully operative self replicating system, it is appropriate to praise the achievements of Wochner et al. 2011,1 which on the tenth anniversary of the birth of R182 have provided a great technological leap and renewed interest in a fascinating and challenging area."
Don't just buy into the 'popular science' hype...
READ!
Engineering a synthetic ribozyme capable of replicating half the length of a RNA strand is NOT evidence of abiogenesis invoking a RNA world
AND, tC19Z cannot synthesize something of its own size in a reasonable amount of time.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3...
Grow up and grow a brain

Translation: I did not understand a word of it, but I got to take a shot.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126284 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
None of them could pass a jury scrutiny in court as the death and resurrection of Jesus can
Indeed
None of them have had entire nations base their constitutions and political systems on their teachings
Only Jesus

LOL. You are out of your mind.

One word refutation: Osirus

And Jesus would not pass an unbiased jury scrutiny. This myth is based on a really bad bit of apologetics.

Ever hear of "faith"? Try it some time.

You won't need the crutches of creationism or apologetics ever again.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#126285 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
None of them could pass a jury scrutiny in court as the death and resurrection of Jesus can
Indeed
None of them have had entire nations base their constitutions and political systems on their teachings
Only Jesus
This is a lie. If it were true there would be only one religion.

Why do Christians lie so much? Who would want a religion based on lies?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126286 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> Whats your explanation for orphan genes?

What? Orphans can't have genes.

That seems a tad heavy handed.

What if they want to have kids themselves someday.


Russell wrote:
<quoted text> Cyt C is a crazy hodge podge of ridiculous nonsense fabricated to keep .......[blah, blah, blah, blah, blah].......

So, you are saying Cyt-C does not exist. Well done, you really cracked that code!

BTW, "The two possible modes for the generation of orphan genes are duplication followed by quick divergence, and de novo evolution from non-coding DNA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_gene

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23348040
http://helenpilcher.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-ha...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21878963

http://stirling-westrup-tt.blogspot.com/2013/...



Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you don't have any knowledge or understanding of science, you taking shots at my understanding comes up empty.
molecular homology is well supported science.
molecular homology does not support I.D.
Nothing supports I.D.(at least to date).
P1. Cyt-C Exists.
P2. Anything that exists is possible.
C: Therefore: Cyt-C is possible.
We call that "scientific logic".
Schooled!
Yawn....
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#126287 Apr 2, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
No, but it IS very natural for people to tell tall tales and pass them off as fact. This is known as "Folklore" and you believe a 2000 yo version first dreamed up by goat herders.
I am not a Christian, I don't believe their myths.
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#126288 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
None of them could pass a jury scrutiny in court as the death and resurrection of Jesus can
Indeed
None of them have had entire nations base their constitutions and political systems on their teachings
Only Jesus
The gods of the nations are idols (including Jesus), but the Lord created the heavens. What makes Jesus so special?
HTS

Williston, ND

#126289 Apr 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you don't have any knowledge or understanding of science, you taking shots at my understanding comes up empty.
molecular homology is well supported science.
molecular homology does not support I.D.
Tell me why you think that "molecular science" does to support ID.
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#126290 Apr 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL. You are out of your mind.
One word refutation: Osirus
One site refutation of your refutation

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
And Jesus would not pass an unbiased jury scrutiny. This myth is based on a really bad bit of apologetics.
Ever hear of "faith"? Try it some time.
You won't need the crutches of creationism or apologetics ever again.
No mate

You are quite wrong

I have the increasing doubt that you are a Christian at all, however, that's between you and God

Your theology is repugnant and erroneous

You simply do not believe the Bible

Please see

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/noother.html

"Harvard Law professor Simon Greenleaf, whose biography and credits are presented online here:

http://28.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GR/GREENLEAF... ,

.....is one of history’s greatest legal authorities. His principle work, the three-volume Treatise on the Law of Evidence, served as a resource for attorneys for years, even endorsed by Abraham Lincoln. The London Law Journal wrote of him in 1874,“It is no mean honor to America that her schools of jurisprudence have produced two of the finest writers and best esteemed legal authorities in this century—the great and good man, Judge Story, and his eminent and worthy associate Professor Greenleaf.

"Upon the existing law of evidence (by Greenleaf) more light has shown from the New World than from all the lawyers who adorn the courts of Europe.”

----------
Greenleaf fully supported the testament of the Gospel writers as being entirely acceptable by a jury
----------

"In examining the veracity of the Scriptures, Greenleaf applies the rules of legal evidence as administered in courts of justice."

From The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administrated in Courts of Justice, available online here:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx... .


After applying the legal rules of evidence, Greenleaf concludes:

“The narratives of the evangelists are now submitted to the reader's perusal and examination, upon the principles and by the rules already stated. For this purpose, and for the sake of more ready and close comparison, they are arranged in juxtaposition, after the general order of the latest and most approved harmonies.

"The question is not upon the strict propriety of the arrangement, but upon the veracity of the witnesses and the credibility of their narratives.

"With the relative merits of modern harmonists, and with points of controversy among theologians the writer has no concern.

"His business is that of a lawyer examining the testimony of witnesses by the rules of his profession, in order to ascertain whether, if they had thus testified on oath, in a court of justice, they would be entitled to credit and whether their narratives, as we now have them, would be received as ancient documents, coming from the proper custody.

"If so, then it is believed that every honest and impartial man will act consistently with that result, by receiving their testimony in all the extent of its import.”
Russell

Adelaide, Australia

#126291 Apr 2, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, live about 10 miles down the road - GPS ain't all that.
And become a creationist ? Nah find it hard to lie so much without shame
A creationist NEVER needs to lie

I never lie

Why does refuting your belief system equate with lying in your eyes?

If I disagree with you, provide scientific evidence of your being wrong, if I challenge your statements.....am I a liar?

No way

Your logic is deficient as is your perspective

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