Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 179748 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#126286 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> Whats your explanation for orphan genes?

What? Orphans can't have genes.

That seems a tad heavy handed.

What if they want to have kids themselves someday.


Russell wrote:
<quoted text> Cyt C is a crazy hodge podge of ridiculous nonsense fabricated to keep .......[blah, blah, blah, blah, blah].......

So, you are saying Cyt-C does not exist. Well done, you really cracked that code!

BTW, "The two possible modes for the generation of orphan genes are duplication followed by quick divergence, and de novo evolution from non-coding DNA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphan_gene

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23348040
http://helenpilcher.blogspot.com/2013/01/a-ha...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21878963

http://stirling-westrup-tt.blogspot.com/2013/...



Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you don't have any knowledge or understanding of science, you taking shots at my understanding comes up empty.
molecular homology is well supported science.
molecular homology does not support I.D.
Nothing supports I.D.(at least to date).
P1. Cyt-C Exists.
P2. Anything that exists is possible.
C: Therefore: Cyt-C is possible.
We call that "scientific logic".
Schooled!
Yawn....
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#126287 Apr 2, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
No, but it IS very natural for people to tell tall tales and pass them off as fact. This is known as "Folklore" and you believe a 2000 yo version first dreamed up by goat herders.
I am not a Christian, I don't believe their myths.
susanblange

Norfolk, VA

#126288 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
None of them could pass a jury scrutiny in court as the death and resurrection of Jesus can
Indeed
None of them have had entire nations base their constitutions and political systems on their teachings
Only Jesus
The gods of the nations are idols (including Jesus), but the Lord created the heavens. What makes Jesus so special?
HTS

Mandan, ND

#126289 Apr 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
As you don't have any knowledge or understanding of science, you taking shots at my understanding comes up empty.
molecular homology is well supported science.
molecular homology does not support I.D.
Tell me why you think that "molecular science" does to support ID.
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126290 Apr 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL. You are out of your mind.
One word refutation: Osirus
One site refutation of your refutation

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/osy.html
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
And Jesus would not pass an unbiased jury scrutiny. This myth is based on a really bad bit of apologetics.
Ever hear of "faith"? Try it some time.
You won't need the crutches of creationism or apologetics ever again.
No mate

You are quite wrong

I have the increasing doubt that you are a Christian at all, however, that's between you and God

Your theology is repugnant and erroneous

You simply do not believe the Bible

Please see

http://www.tektonics.org/guest/noother.html

"Harvard Law professor Simon Greenleaf, whose biography and credits are presented online here:

http://28.1911encyclopedia.org/G/GR/GREENLEAF... ,

.....is one of history’s greatest legal authorities. His principle work, the three-volume Treatise on the Law of Evidence, served as a resource for attorneys for years, even endorsed by Abraham Lincoln. The London Law Journal wrote of him in 1874,“It is no mean honor to America that her schools of jurisprudence have produced two of the finest writers and best esteemed legal authorities in this century—the great and good man, Judge Story, and his eminent and worthy associate Professor Greenleaf.

"Upon the existing law of evidence (by Greenleaf) more light has shown from the New World than from all the lawyers who adorn the courts of Europe.”

----------
Greenleaf fully supported the testament of the Gospel writers as being entirely acceptable by a jury
----------

"In examining the veracity of the Scriptures, Greenleaf applies the rules of legal evidence as administered in courts of justice."

From The Testimony of the Evangelists Examined by the Rules of Evidence Administrated in Courts of Justice, available online here:

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx... .


After applying the legal rules of evidence, Greenleaf concludes:

“The narratives of the evangelists are now submitted to the reader's perusal and examination, upon the principles and by the rules already stated. For this purpose, and for the sake of more ready and close comparison, they are arranged in juxtaposition, after the general order of the latest and most approved harmonies.

"The question is not upon the strict propriety of the arrangement, but upon the veracity of the witnesses and the credibility of their narratives.

"With the relative merits of modern harmonists, and with points of controversy among theologians the writer has no concern.

"His business is that of a lawyer examining the testimony of witnesses by the rules of his profession, in order to ascertain whether, if they had thus testified on oath, in a court of justice, they would be entitled to credit and whether their narratives, as we now have them, would be received as ancient documents, coming from the proper custody.

"If so, then it is believed that every honest and impartial man will act consistently with that result, by receiving their testimony in all the extent of its import.”
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126291 Apr 2, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, live about 10 miles down the road - GPS ain't all that.
And become a creationist ? Nah find it hard to lie so much without shame
A creationist NEVER needs to lie

I never lie

Why does refuting your belief system equate with lying in your eyes?

If I disagree with you, provide scientific evidence of your being wrong, if I challenge your statements.....am I a liar?

No way

Your logic is deficient as is your perspective
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126292 Apr 2, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
How about *THIS* for an alternate ending to the new testiment:
<<begin cut/paste>>
Tomb of Jesus Christ (in Japan)
Shing&#333; village (Japan) is the location of what is purported to be the last resting place of Jesus, located in the "Tomb of Jesus" (Kirisuto no haka), and the residence of Jesus' last descendants, the family of Sajiro Sawaguchi.[1] According to the Sawaguchi family's claims, Jesus Christ did not die on the cross at Golgotha. Instead his brother, Isukiri,[2] took his place on the cross, while Jesus fled across Siberia to Mutsu Province, in northern Japan. Once in Japan, he became a rice farmer, married, and raised a family with three daughters near what is now Shing&#333;. While in Japan, it is asserted that he traveled, learned, and eventually died at the age of 106. His body was exposed on a hilltop for four years. According to the customs of the time, Jesus' bones were collected, bundled, and buried in the mound purported to be the grave of Jesus Christ.[3][4]
Another mound near the alleged grave of Jesus is said to contain an ear of the brother of Jesus and a lock of hair from Mary, the mother of Jesus, the only relics of his family Jesus could carry when he fled Judaea.[5] The claims started in 1933 after the discovery of supposed "ancient Hebrew documents detailing Jesus' life and death in Japan" [6] that was supposedly the testament of Jesus. These documents were allegedly seized by the Japanese authorities and taken to Tokyo shortly before World War II and have not been seen since.[7]
The English text on the sign explaining the legend of the Tomb of Christ reads <<picture shown>>:
"When Jesus Christ was 21 years old, he came to Japan and pursued knowledge of divinity for 12 years. He went back to Judea at age 33 and engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in Judea would not accept Christ's preaching. Instead, they arrested him and tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, Isukiri casually took Christ's place and ended his life on the cross. Christ, who escaped the crucifixion, went through the ups and downs of travel, and again came to Japan. He settled right here in what is now called Herai Village, and died at the age of 106. On this holy ground, there is dedicated a burial mound on the right to deify Christ, and a grave on the left to deify Isukiri."
<<end cut/paste>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shing%C5%8D,_Aom ...

----------
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
In some of my earlier travels, I've had occasion to visit Muslim "museums" .... invariably, there were "foot prints of Mohammed", "hair clippings of Mohammed" and various other Mohammed artifacts including shoes and other bits of clothing.
I think it fascinating that Mohammed had a calico beard and several different sized feet.
I think you two deserve each other

Really

I can't tell who is more daft

However

With a wave of my hand I can summarily dismiss both with ease

And I do so with no brains at all
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126293 Apr 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Translation: I did not understand a word of it, but I got to take a shot.
Sadly I do understand it

Anyone that reads English can

You on the other hand can't

You have revealed your ignorance or science in numerous ways

----------
My belief in God and His word is not based on what "science" dictates

AND mine is a reasoned faith...unlike your's

Plus I don't make stuff up about the Bible....like you

AND I don't ignore the Scriptures that are inconvenient...

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#126294 Apr 2, 2013
susanblange wrote:
<quoted text> I am not a Christian, I don't believe their myths.
If you are a Muslim or Jew, you do believe some of them. And that would make you a liar as well.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#126295 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
How about *THIS* for an alternate ending to the new testiment:
<<begin cut/paste>>
Tomb of Jesus Christ (in Japan)
Shing&#333; village (Japan) is the location of what is purported to be the last resting place of Jesus, located in the "Tomb of Jesus" (Kirisuto no haka), and the residence of Jesus' last descendants, the family of Sajiro Sawaguchi.[1] According to the Sawaguchi family's claims, Jesus Christ did not die on the cross at Golgotha. Instead his brother, Isukiri,[2] took his place on the cross, while Jesus fled across Siberia to Mutsu Province, in northern Japan. Once in Japan, he became a rice farmer, married, and raised a family with three daughters near what is now Shing&#333;. While in Japan, it is asserted that he traveled, learned, and eventually died at the age of 106. His body was exposed on a hilltop for four years. According to the customs of the time, Jesus' bones were collected, bundled, and buried in the mound purported to be the grave of Jesus Christ.[3][4]
Another mound near the alleged grave of Jesus is said to contain an ear of the brother of Jesus and a lock of hair from Mary, the mother of Jesus, the only relics of his family Jesus could carry when he fled Judaea.[5] The claims started in 1933 after the discovery of supposed "ancient Hebrew documents detailing Jesus' life and death in Japan" [6] that was supposedly the testament of Jesus. These documents were allegedly seized by the Japanese authorities and taken to Tokyo shortly before World War II and have not been seen since.[7]
The English text on the sign explaining the legend of the Tomb of Christ reads <<picture shown>>:
"When Jesus Christ was 21 years old, he came to Japan and pursued knowledge of divinity for 12 years. He went back to Judea at age 33 and engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in Judea would not accept Christ's preaching. Instead, they arrested him and tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, Isukiri casually took Christ's place and ended his life on the cross. Christ, who escaped the crucifixion, went through the ups and downs of travel, and again came to Japan. He settled right here in what is now called Herai Village, and died at the age of 106. On this holy ground, there is dedicated a burial mound on the right to deify Christ, and a grave on the left to deify Isukiri."
<<end cut/paste>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shing%C5%8D,_Aom ...
----------
<quoted text>
I think you two deserve each other
Really
I can't tell who is more daft
However
With a wave of my hand I can summarily dismiss both with ease
And I do so with no brains at all
Yes! I believe you do!! <guffa!snort!>

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#126296 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
How about *THIS* for an alternate ending to the new testiment:
<<begin cut/paste>>
Tomb of Jesus Christ (in Japan)
Shing&#333; village (Japan) is the location of what is purported to be the last resting place of Jesus, located in the "Tomb of Jesus" (Kirisuto no haka), and the residence of Jesus' last descendants, the family of Sajiro Sawaguchi.[1] According to the Sawaguchi family's claims, Jesus Christ did not die on the cross at Golgotha. Instead his brother, Isukiri,[2] took his place on the cross, while Jesus fled across Siberia to Mutsu Province, in northern Japan. Once in Japan, he became a rice farmer, married, and raised a family with three daughters near what is now Shing&#333;. While in Japan, it is asserted that he traveled, learned, and eventually died at the age of 106. His body was exposed on a hilltop for four years. According to the customs of the time, Jesus' bones were collected, bundled, and buried in the mound purported to be the grave of Jesus Christ.[3][4]
Another mound near the alleged grave of Jesus is said to contain an ear of the brother of Jesus and a lock of hair from Mary, the mother of Jesus, the only relics of his family Jesus could carry when he fled Judaea.[5] The claims started in 1933 after the discovery of supposed "ancient Hebrew documents detailing Jesus' life and death in Japan" [6] that was supposedly the testament of Jesus. These documents were allegedly seized by the Japanese authorities and taken to Tokyo shortly before World War II and have not been seen since.[7]
The English text on the sign explaining the legend of the Tomb of Christ reads <<picture shown>>:
"When Jesus Christ was 21 years old, he came to Japan and pursued knowledge of divinity for 12 years. He went back to Judea at age 33 and engaged in his mission. However, at that time, people in Judea would not accept Christ's preaching. Instead, they arrested him and tried to crucify him on a cross. His younger brother, Isukiri casually took Christ's place and ended his life on the cross. Christ, who escaped the crucifixion, went through the ups and downs of travel, and again came to Japan. He settled right here in what is now called Herai Village, and died at the age of 106. On this holy ground, there is dedicated a burial mound on the right to deify Christ, and a grave on the left to deify Isukiri."
<<end cut/paste>>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shing%C5%8D,_Aom ...
----------
<quoted text>
I think you two deserve each other
Really
I can't tell who is more daft
However
With a wave of my hand I can summarily dismiss both with ease
And I do so with no brains at all
There goes Rusty again.

Listen, dummy. I just provided the information. I never indicated whether or not I believed in this story (Jesus in Japan) or not.

There are however other stories about Jesus visiting India and Tibet during His 'Lost Years'(age 13 - 29).

http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

Who knows what to believe of any one of the thousands upon thousands of 'sacred' texts? Get the positive messages out of each one, if you are able.
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126297 Apr 2, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes! I believe you do!! <guffa!snort!>
Don't need brains to debate here with you....

With no brains, and one hand tied behind my back....I still win

Its a ...as they say....a 'no brainer'

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#126298 Apr 2, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you even understand what has been done?
<snip of material that rusty does not understand>
Don't just buy into the 'popular science' hype...
READ!
Engineering a synthetic ribozyme capable of replicating half the length of a RNA strand is NOT evidence of abiogenesis invoking a RNA world
AND, tC19Z cannot synthesize something of its own size in a reasonable amount of time.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3...
Grow up and grow a brain
The important fact is that this synthetic ribozome copies much more of a strand than ever before. They admit that there is still work to do.

Poor rusty, how did he ever learn to walk?

When he fell down the first time you would think by his reaction today that he would have thought the whole process was impossible.

It seems his terrible prejudice must have been acquired later in his life.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#126299 Apr 3, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, let's look at cytochrome C. You said that there are 10^93 different "recipes"...those would be stereoisomers... not functional iterations of cytochrome C.
If you think that a huge number of iterations would be functional... how big of a number are you imagining?
If you think that one trillion trillion different variations of cytochrome C are functional, you've increased your probability from 10^-93 to 10^-69... still an impossible number. No matter how many functional variations you imagine to exist, there is an infinitely greater number of dysfunctional variations.
I said 10^9 variations of cytochrome-c would be functional cytochrome-c, slightly different from your interpretation. In a different biochemical landscape, entirely different proteins might do the same job.

But you are looking at it from the wrong direction anyway.

Experimentally, around 10% of random polypeptide chains (rudimentary proteins) have been discovered to show SOME catalytic activity. Thus in the early and inefficient phase of life's development, a catalytic protein that sped up some reaction significantly was likely.

So the "ID" assertion that the current set of proteins has infinitesimal chance of occurring by chance is correct, but that is not what biologist posit happened.

What they are arguing is that SOME, rudimentary, positive effect - which is common - once employed by the cell or proto-cell, would be ratcheted up to greater efficiency by natural selection quite rapidly. Probability ceases to be calculable once natural selection is operating, and as you can see, it could operate from a very low level, highly LIKELY initial catalyst.

In the case of life on this planet, the "lucky catalyst" happened to be a forerunner of cytochrome-c, but in another biology, an entirely different early catalyst might have done the job, and developed into a different modern protein from there. Either way, we do not NEED a modern highly complex protein to get the job done at the start - this efficiency evolved.

Added to this - cyt-c is 70% non-functional anyway, so in terms of design efficiency, not too high. Again, we would EXPECT, at lowest efficiency, a higher proportion of random mutations to be beneficial, and as efficiency increased, a reduced number to be beneficial and more to be deleterious. Thus an equilibrium would be reached, imperfect but workable. And that is what we see. You can add this reasoning as another refutation of Sanford, by the way.

Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126300 Apr 3, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean the country founded by these guys?
..........
Looks to me that you are lying again Godbutt.
Truncated for space and for my sanity

You are obviously not familiar with your own history

Even though Christianity is not mentioned in the Constitution or Bill or Rights, the Founders of the American republic were influenced by Christian ideas in significant ways. For example:

Their faith taught them that humans were sinful. As James Madison wrote in Federalist No. 51,“If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external or internal controls on government would be necessary.” This conviction led them to avoid utopian experiments such as those later pursued during the French Revolution and to adopt a constitutional system characterized by separated powers, checks and balances, and federalism. Many Enlightenment thinkers in this era, by way of contrast, tended to favor a strong, centralized government run by experts.[24]

They firmly believed that God ordained moral standards, that legislation should be made in accordance with these standards, and that moral laws took precedence over human laws. This conviction manifests itself in their abstract reflections (e.g., James Wilson’s law lectures, parts of which read like St. Thomas Aquinas’s Summa Theologica) and practical decisions (e.g., all but one Supreme Court Justice prior to John Marshall argued publicly that the Court could strike down an act of Congress if it violated natural law).[25]

Similarly, Christianity informed the Founders’ understanding of substantive concepts such as “liberty.” Barry Shain has identified eight different ways in which the word was used in the 18th century. Only one of these is related to the excessively individualistic way the term is often used today. Instead, the Founders were far more likely to see liberty as the freedom to do what is morally correct, as illustrated by United States Supreme Court Justice James Wilson’s marvelous dictum:“Without liberty, law loses its nature and its name, and becomes oppression. Without law, liberty also loses its nature and its name, and becomes licentiousness.”[26]

America’s Founders believed that humans were created in the imago dei—the image of God. Part of what this means is that humans are reasonable beings. This led them to conclude that we the people (as opposed to the elite) can order our public lives together through politics rather than force. It also helped inform early (and later) American opposition to slavery.[27]

Faith led many Founders to conclude that religious liberty should be extensively protected. Yet many also thought that civic authorities should encourage Christianity and that it is appropriate to use religious language in the public square. By the late 18th century, some Founders were beginning to question the wisdom of religious establishments, primarily because they thought that such establishments hurt true religion. The Founders’ views on these questions have the most immediate and obvious policy and legal implications, so I will address them in some detail.

----------

The rest of this illuminating article can be read here:

http://www.heritage.org/research/lecture/2011...
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126301 Apr 3, 2013
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
There goes Rusty again.
Listen, dummy. I just provided the information. I never indicated whether or not I believed in this story (Jesus in Japan) or not.
There are however other stories about Jesus visiting India and Tibet during His 'Lost Years'(age 13 - 29).
http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm
Who knows what to believe of any one of the thousands upon thousands of 'sacred' texts? Get the positive messages out of each one, if you are able.
Mate

You'd believe ANYTHING!

Listen, Bud

...There's this neat bridge in a small town here called Sydney....

I have inside info...its for sale...

...You interested in a great deal...?

I'll get my people to talk to your people.....dirt cheap.....an' all!

But just for you....a bargain price...AND you can leave it to your kids!!!!

We'll even throw in a plaque ...."Kong Bridge"...

No, honest!!

----------

Not really

You schumck
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126302 Apr 3, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
The important fact is that this synthetic ribozome copies much more of a strand than ever before. They admit that there is still work to do.
Poor rusty, how did he ever learn to walk?
When he fell down the first time you would think by his reaction today that he would have thought the whole process was impossible.
It seems his terrible prejudice must have been acquired later in his life.
Yes

An engineered ribozyme does not equate abiogenesis....

The evo-desperation knows no bounds

And since you're here, you can please explain why you conveniently ignore my inconvenient posts

Its shameful

Cowardly!

You have no excuse

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#126303 Apr 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes
An engineered ribozyme does not equate abiogenesis....
The evo-desperation knows no bounds
And since you're here, you can please explain why you conveniently ignore my inconvenient posts
Its shameful
Cowardly!
You have no excuse
If anyone claimed that it was a mistake.

I asked at least a day ago, what inconvenient posts?

I know you made a list of posts a day or two ago and I was more than happy to point out that you were extremely wrong is all but one of them.

I guess being right once must have been the first in ten years for you.

Congratulations rusty!

Now if you could only improve to be right twice a day your performance would match a stopped clock.

“When you treat people as they ”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#126304 Apr 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
My country and your's were founded on Christianity and not leprechauns with live dacshunds up their noses
Your country was founded as a penal colony

The US was founded on freedom of (and from) religion
Russell

Canberra, Australia

#126305 Apr 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Your country was founded as a penal colony
The US was founded on freedom of (and from) religion
Whoops ...

Is it THAT time already...

But I only just got here....

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