Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 179501 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

HTS

Williston, ND

#121072 Mar 2, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB301.h...
Creationist Claim CB301:
The eye is too complex to have evolved
Response:
This is the quintessential example of the argument from incredulity. The source making the claim usually quotes Darwin saying that the evolution of the eye seems "absurd in the highest degree". However, Darwin follows that statement with a three-and-a-half-page proposal of intermediate stages through which eyes might have evolved via gradual steps (Darwin 1872).
photosensitive cell
aggregates of pigment cells without a nerve
an optic nerve surrounded by pigment cells and covered by translucent skin
pigment cells forming a small depression
pigment cells forming a deeper depression
the skin over the depression taking a lens shape
muscles allowing the lens to adjust
All of these steps are known to be viable because all exist in animals living today. The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into even smaller increments. Natural selection should, under many circumstances, favor the increments. Since eyes do not fossilize well, we do not know that the development of the eye followed exactly that path, but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists.
Evidence for one step in the evolution of the vertebrate eye comes from comparative anatomy and genetics. The vertebrate &#946;&#947;-crystalli n genes, which code for several proteins crucial for the lens, are very similar to the Ciona &#946;&#947;-crystalli n gene. Ciona is an urochordate, a distant relative of vertebrates. Ciona's single &#946;&#947;-crystalli n gene is expressed in its otolith, a pigmented sister cell of the light-sensing ocellus. The origin of the lens appears to be based on co-optation of previously existing elements in a lensless system.
Nilsson and Pelger (1994) calculated that if each step were a 1 percent change, the evolution of the eye would take 1,829 steps, which could happen in 364,000 generations.
Links:
Lindsay, Don, 1998. How long would the fish eye take to evolve? http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/e...
References:
Darwin, C., 1872. The Origin of Species, 1st Edition. Senate, London, chpt. 6, http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapte...
Nilsson, D.-E. and S. Pelger, 1994. A pessimistic estimate of the time required for an eye to evolve. Proceedings of the Royal Society of London, Biological Sciences, 256: 53-58.
Shimeld, Sebastian M. et al. 2005. Urochordate &#946;&#947;-crystalli n and the evolutionary origin of the vertebrate eye lens. Current Biology 15: 1684-1689.
I'm well familiar with those stories...
And with the ridiculous "argument firm incredulity" retort.
You have no scientific evidence of anything... All you can do is ridicule skeptics for not having faith in evolution.
Why do you think the proliferation of stories constitute science.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#121073 Mar 2, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>You can't use evolutionary speculations to argue evolution. You have no proof that bats evolved sonar, or that flying squirrels evolved flaps between their legs. Stories are not "evidence".
Humans did not "evolve" HIV resistance. HIV has never been proven to cause disease in the first place. It has never been produced in a laboratory animal.
Squirrels without the skin flaps existed long before the ones with the flaps, so yes, they evolved it, it's a genetic mutation that proved beneficial to it.

.... and then I notice your last statement ....

What? You are seriously buying into any and all stories that have zero evidence and ignoring everything that has evidence supporting it, literally. I call Poe.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#121074 Mar 2, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text> No, you have imaginative bedtime stories. Incessant repetition doesn't establish scientific fact. Gillette, you have already been exposed as a spineless atheist who believes everything you're told by the MSM.

MSM?

Methylsulfonylmethan speaks?
HTS wrote:
<quoted text> ..I'm not sure why you're even engaged in this conversation.

I wonder why as well. Certainly the creationists have nothing to offer and once someones mind is made up they are not likely to be converted by mere facts.

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#121075 Mar 2, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, KK, evidence. Precisely the reason I reject macroevolution.
You should also be pleased that the ToE also rejects macroevolution as you define it.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#121076 Mar 2, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm well familiar with those stories...
And with the ridiculous "argument firm incredulity" retort.
You have no scientific evidence of anything... All you can do is ridicule skeptics for not having faith in evolution.
Why do you think the proliferation of stories constitute science.
Skeptic? Okay, so you think you're a skeptic. Okay, so how many of the 59 hominid fossils have you actually analyzed yourself? Have you compared the actual genetic sequence of the various modern apes? Have you actually looked at the lineage of viruses and seen what can effect what species and then compared the cell structures that each virus infects? How many months worth of time at 18 hours a day did you study biochemistry and how hormones react with the various chemicals? Have you learned the names of all possible flora that can live in the human digestive system and which ones are more common? Did you then compare these flora to other species with relatively similar genetic structures?

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#121077 Mar 2, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
MSM?
Methylsulfonylmethan speaks?
Well, it does if you inject it into someone.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#121078 Mar 2, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
No autopsy was performed. They have no idea how Lucy died. It was not "encased" in volcanic ash. What scientific evidence do you have that a volcano erupted at the time of Lucy's death? You apparently don't understand the fundamental assumptions of Radiometric dating...
She was buried in volcanic ash. How do you think she died?

And let's say she died a natural death and then very shortly after death was buried by a volcanic eruption. It still does not matter the eruption had to occur very shortly after death, otherwise there would be no body to preserve.

Or are you still stuck in stupid?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#121079 Mar 2, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Never mind the ability to sort or search capabilities.(Which is very easy) You said it couldn't be copied and it has no export. You need help, son.
No, stupid. A simple copy & paste would not give you data in a sortable format. And, obviously, you have no idea what an export function is. You think because you can use Excel, you're some kind of computer genius. You're not. So shut up, you're in over your head.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#121080 Mar 2, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Sheesh! Give a ninny a spreadsheet program and he thinks he's a programmer. <*snort!*>
BINGO!

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#121081 Mar 2, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm not claiming to be a programmer. MikeF said it couldn't be copied and pasted. So I showed him that it could. All one would have to do then is use MS Word function "FIND" to locate duplicates or whatever. Easy stuff everyone should know. Excel is just as easy. You simply copy into Excel and sort the fields or whatever. I analyzed the list several years ago and found all kinds of crap in it as noted above.
Sure you did.

I never said you couldn't copy and paste, dipshit. I said there was a lot more too it. You are too uneducated in data conversion to understand the details.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#121082 Mar 2, 2013
HTS wrote:
For those of you who give such credence to Argon-Argon Radiometric dating of Lucy remains, here is a scientific article that completely debunks the methodology.
http://www.icr.org/article/436/
Nope, that site does not debunk the methodology at all. Not only hat the writer knew it too. That makes him a liar. To do that it would have to have gone through peer review, and the writer is supposedly a PhD so he should understand peer review. Since he avoided peer review, or even worse was rejected by peer review he knew his ideas did not hold up.

It looks like all of the cases of "excess argon" he cited were associated with of phenocysts. Typically they were found in phenocrysts of olivine and similar minerals.

It seems that neither you nor the writer knows what phenocrysts are or why olivine phenocrysts would have different dates. Let me explain what phenocrysts are. They are obviously large crystals in a smaller crystal matrix. I can tell you don't know where phenocrysts come from. Phenocrysts are minerals that were usually from an earlier event. They were already crystalized before the eruption. Their could have been many different sources for the phenocrysts and are something you have to be aware of when you date something. So when dating rock with phenocrysts in it it is a good idea to date the phenocrysts separate from the rock as a whole to see if you get a different date.

Guess what you practically never find in volcanic ash?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Lakeland, FL

#121083 Mar 2, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Hundreds of thousands of lines of code. As a School Supervisor. But don't know how to copy and paste. Interesting.
Typical John Boy bullshit. Misrepresent what someone said and then harp on it like the whiny little bitch you are.

I've been with the school district for 15 years. I've had a software consulting business for 30.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#121084 Mar 2, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>. If you had any understanding of the scientific method and of the actual evidence for human evolution, you would persist in this self made delusion that you've created that all science points to your unsubstantiated theories.
Cro-Magnon was not a transitional species. Australian aboriginals have unique skeletal feature from Europeans. They are a unique race... Nothing more. Do you have any idea how much genetic variability can exist within one species? Have you ever compared a bulldog skull with the skull of a greyhound? They are one species.
I'm surprised that you're still stuck n the outdated paradigm of Cro-Magnon being transitional. Can you provide a peer reviewed paper documenting that Cro-Magnon was transitional and was not simply a modern human? All you can provide is opinions based on imaginative stories. Do you have proof of the ages of Cro-Magnon remains? What methodologies were used?
LMFAO!!

Australopithecus has nothing to do with Australian aborigines. Christine never mentioned aborigines at all.

I will let Christine swamp you with picture of early Homo sapiens if she hasn't already.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#121085 Mar 2, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>You can't use evolutionary speculations to argue evolution. You have no proof that bats evolved sonar, or that flying squirrels evolved flaps between their legs. Stories are not "evidence".
Humans did not "evolve" HIV resistance. HIV has never been proven to cause disease in the first place. It has never been produced in a laboratory animal.
Actually we can, in fact we can argue anything we want, at least until you learn what evidence is. Since you are still stuck in stupid evidence wise we can simply point out the fact that we have evidence and you don't. In fact, and I do need to repeat this point, you don't even know what evidence is.

And that's your fault. You were the one that ran away from the evidence lesson.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#121086 Mar 2, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Typical John Boy bullshit. Misrepresent what someone said and then harp on it like the whiny little bitch you are.
I've been with the school district for 15 years. I've had a software consulting business for 30.
But you don't even know how to copy and paste from a website? In about 5 minutes I could make mailing labels out of that list. You don't even have to copy it actually. You could just use IE Find function (Tools, File, Find on this page). It's so easy.

Basic computer skills for Beginners Mike. Adult Education Course. Maybe you can get the government to pay for it.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#121087 Mar 2, 2013
HTS still does not understand in who has the burden of proof. When evolution was first proposed, and each new discovery, had the burden of proof upon them. And evidence has been supplied. As we have said there are literally mountains of evidence that support evolution and its various subtheories. There is no evidence supporting creation.

If you want to make a creationist claim the burden of proof is now upon you HTS. And weak attempt to debunk evolution is not evidence for creation. That is using a false dichotomy, another common logical error that creationists use.

HST seems to be a Maz type creationist, that is a anything but evolution creationist. He will not come out and openly state his beliefs. Rusty on the other hand has admitted to being an idiot. He has touted a 6,000 year old Earth meaning that he does not even believe the work of Isaac Newton.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#121088 Mar 2, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure you did.
I never said you couldn't copy and paste, dipshit. I said there was a lot more too it. You are too uneducated in data conversion to understand the details.
Too uneducated? I'm a CPA and have an MBA. I'm more educated than you are. I work with data all the time as I am an IT Auditor. I'm also a Certified Information Systems Auditor. Do you even know what that is? Do I need to show you how this can be done in both word and Excel? There are several ways it can easily be done. It is easy as pie. You really should consider a basic skills course. I'm sure your employer would pay for it.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#121089 Mar 2, 2013
Oh and by the way Mike, you did say it couldn't be done on post #120909. Do you know how I found that? Be polite please.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#121090 Mar 2, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Typical John Boy bullshit. Misrepresent what someone said and then harp on it like the whiny little bitch you are.
I've been with the school district for 15 years. I've had a software consulting business for 30.
Hey Mike, A lot has changed with computers in the last 15 years. Perhaps you need a refresher course.
One way or another

United States

#121091 Mar 2, 2013
You're asking a moron not to be stupid. Mikey the moron can't help it.

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