Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 Full story: www.scientificblogging.com 173,584

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand." Full Story

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#120552 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>Nice dodging, Christine. The papers do not document any ages. Ages are simply stated. If you want to begin a scientific discussion, then let's validate some facts and dispense with the pontification.
How do you know? You have not read them you are just ranting and putting forward unfounded rejection and denial based on deliberate ignorance and creationist incredulity because such tests disprove your faith which is built on nothing other than you donít understand it must have been goddidit by magic.

As indicated, some of those documents are simply museum literature based on scientific investigation and were included because I considered the childrenís section was more or less the level you could comprehend. Other documents are peer reviewed and reference the type of testing used, times, dates, places, artefacts measured, equipment used and itís calibration certificate information, those present, those doing the tests and their qualification, the acknowledged accuracy of that testing, those verifying the tests and their qualification etc, etc. In other words correct scientific testing using correct scientific procedural methods.

The documentation is laid out in such a way so that any other interested party can repeat those same experiments, test and procedures so that peer review can be accurate and if required offer criticism or methods and offer alternatives

In other they are falsifiable, as true scientific work must be.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#120553 Feb 28, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Is that why we say someone has eyes like an octopus? instead of like an eagle?

We should.
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> How about some real challenges that have not been done to death and refuted ages ago?

Yawn, I bet you have nothing that is either new or valid
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> Our inverted retina is great design...

It has a number of problems. If it was so great why did god need to experiment with it and get it wrong in so many creatures. Apparently design sucks.
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> How would you arrange for heat dissipation and gas exchange?

Evolution takes care of these things, in time.
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> The choroid can't go in front of the retina......its opague!

Apparently a straw-man, but it could be you really don't know how the eyes of other creatures work.
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> It contains the red blood cells...in the blood vessels carrying the blood supply for the retina's very metabolically active retinal pigment epithelium (RPE).

.......so.......
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> This is necessary to regenerate the photoreceptors, and to absorb excess heat.

Apparently not.
Russell wrote:
<quoted text> Dr Jonathan Sarfati has said:

End of discussion. You just lost.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

North Miami Beach, FL

#120554 Feb 28, 2013
Russell wrote:
Kondrashov has said in a personal communication to Sanford, Pg 172 Genetic Entropy.....UC can verify this ...
That the mutation rate may be as high as 300 U!
..........Two lines died..........
Yep, it's it right here on page 172, Genetic Entropy:

"Since this paper, Dr. Kondrashov has indicated to me by way of personal communication that 100 was just a lower estimate and that 300 is his upper estimate. He also indicated to me that he now believes up to 30% of the mutations may be deleterious. This means that, from his persepective, "U" (deleterious mutations per generation) would be 30-90. This is 100 fold higher than would have previously been considered possible. In the end, he dismisses the entire problem with "synergistic epistasis" and "truncation selection".

“I started out with nothing”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#120555 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
You don't know that evolution did anything... You assume evolutiondidit. What do you always give evolution the default position? Because your RELIGION requires it.
Yes we do because of observation, measurement, logic, science, medicine etc in :-

The universal genetic code.
The fossil record.
Genetic commonalties.
Common traits in embryos.
Bacterial resistance to antibiotics
Teeth
Toxin resistance in snakes
Lactose acceptance in humans
Lizards and other animals including
Langkawi bent-toed gecko (Cyrtodactylus macrotuberculatus)
And various species of Galapagos finches

Are just a few measures that evolution can be proven

As for my religion, weeellll, I am certainly a more content person spiritually knowing that I prefer to follow fact backed up with evidence rather than goddidt fictions backed up by bronze age ignorance and guesswork.
One way or another

United States

#120556 Feb 28, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Early feathers would not have been suitable for flying.
Ignorant putz.
Ah, the moron pretends not to understand what HTS says.

That's normal for you dog sh* t.
One way or another

United States

#120557 Feb 28, 2013
What HTS said

HTS wrote:
<quoted text>. If you say that feathers started out as heat regulators before flight, the ony logical conclusion is an end goal. Otherwise they would not have been pre-adapted for flight.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120558 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>A dog and a cat supposedly evolved from a common ancestor. A dog could be bred to that common ancestor, and then bred to a cat. You think a cat evolved from a microbe. Are you suggesting that it would be easier to take a microbe and breed it into a cat, or would you rather start with a dog? There is significant DNA homology between a dog and a cat... far more than between a cat and a microbe.
Have you been watching "Altered States"?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120559 Feb 28, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Ah,... a good laugh refreshes me.
As if we could breed backwards and forwards with full intention without being able to control even for mutations.
Is this really your understanding of evolution. If it is then I really don't know where to start with you.
Unlearning is about as hard as unevolving.
And this from a guy who claims to be a physician and who criticizes ToE without even a high school understanding of it. Laughable.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120560 Feb 28, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
Hmm, let's look at the evolutionary changes HST wants done in an analog. Now each evolutionary change is literally a one out of a billion chance of occurring. Actually one of three billion. We don't know the genetics of the common ancestor, though we could derive what many of them were. If a cat and a dog shared a gene the odds are almost certain that the common ancestor had that gene. So this is not a totally blind expedition. And let's say there are only 10,000 difference between a dog and a cat. So somehow with guided evolution we have to steer backwards through 10,000 changes each at an odds of one in a billion of occurring.
Do you start to see the problem with even guided evolution for an existing goal? Evolution works by "good enough". If a change is good enough for a species to keep breeding it lives on. If it does not evolve to meet changes in the environment it dies out. If there are no changes in environment there is no pressure to evolve and the existing species stabilizes around the existing alleles.
I think it impossible. To UN-evolve, one would have to have to be able to determine what the previous genetics were - as you correctly point out.

“I started out with nothing”

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Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#120561 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>I'm not letting you off the hook on this, SZ... The proposed evolution of similar outcomes in unrelated species is a serious blow to Darwinism... and it's not just isolated to vertebrate and cephalopod eyes. Supposedly pentadactylism evolved inteo deifferent lines independently. It means that specific pathways are followed. How do you reconcile this with probability considerations?
Since when has finding a solution that works been a blow to Darwinism?

That fact that there are similar solutions to similar problems demonstrates how easy evolution is.

Coincidentally just a couple of weeks ago I was watching a program hosted by Professor Brian Cox that focussed some time on the evolution of the eye

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01qm913
http://weirderthanyouthink.wordpress.com/2013...
http://inagist.com/all/298185535745294336/ The great David Attenborough thinks the evolution of the eye is a key piece of evidence for Darwin's theories
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/adaptations/Visua...

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120562 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>if infinite numbers of pathways to evolution, there would be no convergence such as similar complex image-forming eyes in humans and cephalopods. Your innumerable pathways are imaginary and your intuitions are not borne out be scientific evidence.
Sight is a survival advantage. It is no surprise that it developed multiple times. See PAX6 gene.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120563 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>Simply divorcing yourself from abiogenesis doesn't answer anything. ToE says that no ID exists. If it can be shone that abiogenesis is impossible, then the central premise of ToE has been demolished.
Nope. ToE addresses the diversity of life not it origins. It works no matter how life started.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Seffner, FL

#120564 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text> OK...if it makes you feel any better... You can start with a petri dish of E. coli...If you don't think it's possible to selectively breed a giraffe, you're embracing a theory that proposes that what happened once could never happen again.
Incredible as it sounds, you are correct. What happened once - in nature - will not happen again.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120565 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
Here is one of the articles that addresses non drug-using female prostitutes...
http://www.duesberg.com/subject/rrbprostitute...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Duesberg#C...

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120566 Feb 28, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
If an intelligent designer exists then why could he not have created all at once in 6 days?
Just as He has said He did
*IF* and intelligent designer existed, he could have. The evidence says otherwise.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Seffner, FL

#120567 Feb 28, 2013
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
If all genetic lineages that provide a survival advantage survive and the remainder die off, why WOULDN'T they follow similar or even the "same" path ways?
Especially in the same or similar environment.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120568 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>OK, I'll make it easier still... You can start with any microorganism.. Or you can genetically engineer one to your specifications... You're just dodging... You can't face up to the absurdity of what you believe.
And tell me ... If evolution can take any one of infinite numbers of pathways as you claim, what's preventing the selective breeding of human from a banana? We do share 60% genetic homology already... You're the one who doesn't understand evolution.
{head/desk}

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120569 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text> Goal or no goal... The proposed pathway is directional, ie, gradual evolution toward flight.
This is called "hindsight".

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120570 Feb 28, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't swallow the BS about "feathered dinosaurs". Where is the proof that filamentous imprints are feathers? That is wishful thinking. Do you dutifully believe everything you're told that supports your cherished beliefs, without any objective questioning? Do you seriously think you're engaged in science? Have you ever had the courage to squarely address the innumerable impossibilities to evolution?
Swallow this:
http://news.discovery.com/animals/dinosaurs/d...
HTS wrote:
Your unbridled arrogance is seriously impairing your quest for truth. You think you have everything figured out. You think you understand feather evolution. No one... even Dawkins, has a logical explanation...so don't pretend that I'm naive and ignorant because I don't get it. Only an arrogant fool would imagine that he has even close to all the answers.
No one is pretending. You *are* naive and ignorant as shown by many of your comments here.

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#120571 Feb 28, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Precisely where your brain usually resides as well...
Are you related to Charles Idemi?

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