Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 Full story: www.scientificblogging.com 174,458

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand." Full Story

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#116247 Feb 7, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
So you say I twist things but then what is the mechanism that places the evolutionary order of life in the right layers? This is my point. Every fossil must be buried quickly under pressure.
Oh, I get it. When the evidence contradicts your story, you simply lie about the evidence. We can't stop you from being dishonest, but we can point it out. It would be nice if the ninth commandment meant something to you.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
There is no layers of depths from which you can trace backward in time. And another thing. You could equally have said, at some earlier point when the theory was being developed, that so and so fossil preceeds or follows this so and so fossil. It is impossible to know for sure because it is the unobservable past.
The nested hierarchy of morphologies matches the nested hierarchy that had been predicted. Your dissatisfaction with this fact doesn't change that fact.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
You always place much greater weight on the unobservable past than the routinely observed and testable present: we don't see beneficial mutations or macroevolution as the rule. There are only 1 or 2 highly questionnable cases.
Lactose tolerance or lactose intolerance. Which is beneficial and which is harmful?
Urban Cowboy wrote:
We have never seen a bone fossilize by the process of slow gradualism.
We've never seen someone gain a pound of body fat, either. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
This means that by and large, all fossils form by catasrophism not uniformitarianism.
Oh, cool. You get to define reality as you seen fit. Can just anybody do that?
Urban Cowboy wrote:
This blows the lid off the geologic column! My rule places much more weight on the observable and testable. Your theory is devoted almost entirely on the unobservable past and the very rare exception.
Well, sure, when you make shit up, things can hypothetically turn out however you see fit.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
And as you always do, I'll sprinkle a few supporting comments: The arrow of time is in the exact opposite direction of evolution. Everything in the known universe is moving toward less complexity, including all living genomes. The radiometric dating is only as good as its assumptions about quanties of parent and daughter elements and rates, and it doesn't explain always finding elements that should have been long decayed away.
Stringing together several falsehoods doesn't turn them into truths.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
So regardless of the geologic column or any guesses about how old the earth is, my Rule of Non-Macroevolution stands.
Yes, just like we don't see people get taller as they grow up. Tell us more about the magical properties of water.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#116248 Feb 7, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
Oh, I get it. When the evidence contradicts your story, you simply lie about the evidence. We can't stop you from being dishonest, but we can point it out. It would be nice if the ninth commandment meant something to you.
Oh, call me a liar. Yes, like that's mature.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#116249 Feb 7, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
We've never seen someone gain a pound of body fat, either. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Of course we have. Ever watch "Biggest Loser"? Do you even understand the concept? You're just being silly.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#116250 Feb 7, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, call me a liar. Yes, like that's mature.
Maybe if you didn't lie so much...

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#116251 Feb 7, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course we have. Ever watch "Biggest Loser"? Do you even understand the concept? You're just being silly.
So, people could SEE the fat forming?

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#116252 Feb 7, 2013
Alien Outlaw wrote:
<quoted text>Point taken. Now, why are humans trying to make contact with beings of advanced intelligence. Bees will come to nectar, advanced beings can not respond because they cannot receive the technology humans are sending........different dimension, different technology.
Currently, we are not trying to contact other civilizations. We are looking for signs that other civilizations are sending intelligent signals using technology that should be available anywhere in the universe, providing they were advanced enough to exploit it (like radio signals or light signals). Though it is not an absolute assumption, it is a reasonable guess that radio or light technology would be at the base of any civilization capable of communicating beyond individual-to-individual.

The probability that there are other planets in the universe that have living organisms on them seems reasonably high. But the probability that they would be able to communicate beyond their own planet is much lower. For example, dolphins are highly intelligent, but given the environment they live in, it is unlikely they would ever develop ANY technology, let alone learn to communicate beyond their own inclosed environment.

We explore the possibilities because we can ask questions, not because we know the answer.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#116253 Feb 7, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Who the heck is Hovind?
And why would I "listen" to him anyway
I go where the evidence is, bud
Don't be a prat
The Oort Cloud, Kuiper Belt and Scattered Disc are HYPOTHETICAL
Nice bit of astrophysics, admittedly
But they fall into the realms of the usual evo-wishful thinking...
Kuiper belt: in order to work would need BILLIONS of comets
Hooray for your thousands...
Besides, they are TOO LARGE....over 100 km in diameter
Therefore, are at least TEN times wider than comets
Which means they are over a thousand times more massive!
Indeed, KBO's Orcus and Quaoar are over 1000 km in diameter.
Where Kuiper Belt failed as a potential reservoir for short distance comets, by virtue of its stability,
...enter stage R--> The Scattered Disc
--Levinson, H F and Donnes, L, "Comet populations and cometary Dynamics", in McFadden, L A A et al, Encyclopedia of the Solar system, 2nd Ed, Amsterdam, Boston,Academic Press, pp 575-588, 2007
Scattered disc objects are too few and too large eg SDO Eris is larger than Pluto, with a diameter of 2,400 km
Sedna SDO is larger than Quaoar
For long distance comets, with the Oort Cloud---> No observational support
--Sagan C and Druyan A, Comets, Michael Joseph, London, p 175, 1985
If there really was an Oort cloud, there should be 100 times more comets than we see...
So what do evolutionary astronomers do?
Fudge factor
"Arbitrary fading function"....or that they are broken before we see them
--Bailey, M E, Where have all the comets gone? Science 296 (5576):2251-2253, June 2002
--Levison, H F et al, The mass disruption of Oort Cloud comets, Science, 296, 5576, 2212-2215, June 2002
See the fallacy?
Hypothetical source for comets
Not observable even today
Claimed to be billions of years old
Then make something up to explain why this hypothetical source does not provide the comets it should
BIG FAIL
These guys get fed the pablum from talkorigins and they assume we look up to this guy as our leader and we've never even heard of Povin. It's ridiculous.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#116254 Feb 7, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
So, people could SEE the fat forming?
No idiot. They check the scale each week. Sheeez!

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#116255 Feb 7, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe if you didn't lie so much...
How is stating something I believe is true because that is how I interprest the evidence a lie? It seems to me calling a person a liar knowing damn well they didn't makes you the liar.
One way or another

United States

#116256 Feb 7, 2013
Any entities capable of thought, MUST be capable pf asking itself questions, first.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Arlington, VA

#116257 Feb 7, 2013
appleboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Currently, we are not trying to contact other civilizations. We are looking for signs that other civilizations are sending intelligent signals using technology that should be available anywhere in the universe, providing they were advanced enough to exploit it (like radio signals or light signals). Though it is not an absolute assumption, it is a reasonable guess that radio or light technology would be at the base of any civilization capable of communicating beyond individual-to-individual.
The probability that there are other planets in the universe that have living organisms on them seems reasonably high. But the probability that they would be able to communicate beyond their own planet is much lower. For example, dolphins are highly intelligent, but given the environment they live in, it is unlikely they would ever develop ANY technology, let alone learn to communicate beyond their own inclosed environment.
We explore the possibilities because we can ask questions, not because we know the answer.
> Total waste of time.

> Dolphins are highly intelligent? Really?{Eye Roll}

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#116258 Feb 7, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
Not necessarily. Perhaps a mild case or in partial remission. I don't think psychoboy has schizophrenia, even if I cannot rule it completely out by the indirect and anecdotal evidence we see here. He has worked most of his life and even run a business (even if an unsuccessful one). That is more than what many with schizophrenia can accomplish. OTOH Delusional Disorder fits perfectly as a diagnosis with the given information. And he certainly fits the paranoid/megalomaniacal type of Delusional Disorder.
A person with delusional disorder may be high functioning in daily life as this disorder bears no relation to one's IQ,[3] and may not exhibit odd or bizarre behavior aside from these delusions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delusional_disor...
Some may think psycho is dumb, but I don't think this is so. Uneducated (or perhaps miseducated would be a better term) certainly, but not really dumb. His distortions of reality are the product of as good core processor that just does not have a better program to run than Ms Pac-man.
I'd agree that he seems to have an IQ in the normal range. The messages one gets in the process of education can make a very big difference.

When he first came to Topix he made lots of obviously intentional spelling and grammar mistakes. My first guess was that he was a sock puppet, but later came to the conclusion that he was attempting to grab sympathy--or perhaps projecting a means to protect his true identity. At any rate, he eventually cleaned up his spelling and grammar and showed that he could put ideas together in a flowing manner, though the premise for those ideas were flawed.

The delusion that his ideas would always be right regardless of contrary evidence was probably supported early in his education, either by his teachers giving up on him or by his mother's active praise for any effort he made.

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#116259 Feb 7, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
On your last point, whilst I accept that a virtual diagnosis is all but impossible - how would one know Jimbo isn't just a troll/Poe as UC suggests?
Not saying he dosent have mental issues, but suspect he does actually read posts and in his own way respond to them ( u notice often adds the superflorous word at the top of his posts every now and then since I pointed it out).
Whilst he seems to be deranged ( forgive me, I know it's not a medical term) how can we be sure he isn't the worlds best Edgar Allan.
Apologies If stupid question but am actually interested
Or perhaps stuck in an emotionally immature stage of development. Like when children throw a tantrum and expect that if they just hold out a little longer, their demands must be met. Not a delusion driven by halucinations or schizophrenia, but simply driven by an attitude of expectations that any opposition must eventually give way.
One way or another

United States

#116260 Feb 7, 2013
When one of you Evo children get a thought all your own, do let us know. Y'all have been here for years and not one of you has contributed even one new thought.

Housing fall

More new science by Jim Ryan

The failing school systems across the planet, due to government control, fail in the most important way and that is, to teach how to think for oneself.

The gov teaches A B C's and 1 2 3's, it teaches what to say and what to do. It teaches what not to say and what not to do.

Most of the housing bubble and fall were not due to lending to those who couldn't afford it, but it was due to the group think, taught all throughout school and work.

I'll bet none of you know what it was.
If you are able to think for yourself, it should be very easy to figure out, especially in hindsight and knowing that the rise and fall of the housing industry was due to group think and action.

The housing fall came not from the bad loans, but rather from the good loans. The good loans were the ones that borrowed money to renovate their homes. There were quite a number of tv shows touting the money to be made by renovation, coupled with politicians, realtors, home improvement stores, gov and more, making money by creating the schools, follow the leader mentality.
holy cow

Kent, WA

#116261 Feb 7, 2013
I cant believe we have telescopes that can see 20 light years away!! Isnt one light year 5 trillion miles?? Thats so amazing. After the discovery of millions of earth like planets not that far from us, i am convinced we are not alone and we are here because of aliens.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#116262 Feb 7, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
On your last point, whilst I accept that a virtual diagnosis is all but impossible - how would one know Jimbo isn't just a troll/Poe as UC suggests?

Trolls have an agenda. What end does making oneself appear insane serve?

Alan Morgan wrote:[5] "Any sufficiently advanced parody is indistinguishable from a genuine kook."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law

It is impossible to know for sure. Jim's anger is one of his driving mechanisms and I don't think he can control it this well for this long. He would do something to overtly out himself in one of his fits of rage.
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text> Not saying he dosent have mental issues, but suspect he does actually read posts and in his own way respond to them ( u notice often adds the superflorous word at the top of his posts every now and then since I pointed it out).
Whilst he seems to be deranged ( forgive me, I know it's not a medical term) how can we be sure he isn't the worlds best Edgar Allan.
Apologies If stupid question but am actually interested

Not at all stupid question. Again, it is impossible to know for certain, but the shoe certainly fits and fits well.

Of more interest to me is what might be the cause of the disorder. There are known genetics, but most mental illnesses have environmental triggers. For Jim it would seem to be his traumatic childhood which he has spoken of several times (self disclosure does not seem to be of interest to the Poe). He seems to project all of this accumulated anger on us. And his nutty science is not only created, on the fly, in our forum, but he has referred to other things that were "stolen" from him in the past. And remember the big build up to his Final (cat pee) Solution.

Now, if I am wrong about Delusional Disorder and he is a COMPLETE Poe, then it would change my diagnosis, but would not change the fact there seems to be a mental illness driving it.

Contrast him to UC who is just a religious nut and sticks to the typical religious nut agenda.

Mugwump

Manchester, UK

#116263 Feb 7, 2013
One way or another wrote:
When one of you Evo children get a thought all your own, do let us know. Y'all have been here for years and not one of you has contributed even one new thought.
Housing fall
More new science by Jim Ryan
The failing school systems across the planet, due to government control, fail in the most important way and that is, to teach how to think for oneself.
The gov teaches A B C's and 1 2 3's, it teaches what to say and what to do. It teaches what not to say and what not to do.
Most of the housing bubble and fall were not due to lending to those who couldn't afford it, but it was due to the group think, taught all throughout school and work.
I'll bet none of you know what it was.
If you are able to think for yourself, it should be very easy to figure out, especially in hindsight and knowing that the rise and fall of the housing industry was due to group think and action.
The housing fall came not from the bad loans, but rather from the good loans. The good loans were the ones that borrowed money to renovate their homes. There were quite a number of tv shows touting the money to be made by renovation, coupled with politicians, realtors, home improvement stores, gov and more, making money by creating the schools, follow the leader mentality.
Evidence?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#116264 Feb 7, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
How is stating something I believe is true because that is how I interprest the evidence...
You don't know enough to interpret the evidence properly. You, in all your wisdom, are declaring yourself a better critic and analyst of the facts than people who are actually trained to do so. You are basing your beliefs on ignorance being applied to the facts. Since when has that EVER been a valid and useful method of determining how things actually work?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#116265 Feb 7, 2013
holy cow wrote:
I cant believe we have telescopes that can see 20 light years away!! Isnt one light year 5 trillion miles?? Thats so amazing. After the discovery of millions of earth like planets not that far from us, i am convinced we are not alone and we are here because of aliens.
Because we have hair, I am convinced that bigfoot exists.

This is your claim, in a nutshell.

Is there anything at all amiss about it?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#116266 Feb 7, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
For goodness sake!
Education is highly over-rated
Which "cretard", as you lovingly refer to creationists, has lied? Making bigoted statements does not endear you to the masses nor function as a "badge of honour" for "being educated"...
You're tired again?
You're half asleep all day
Whatchoo gotta sleep at night for?

All of them lie. Some of them have gone to prison for tax evasion, too.

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