Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 Full story: www.scientificblogging.com 176,871

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand." Full Story
Mugwump

Manchester, UK

#115989 Feb 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Hi Mugwump
I do hope you have other New Year resolutions?
This present one seem rather narrow and asinine......
I do not recall my saying "1000's of base pairs" precisely, although I may have said that a first replicating cell would require thousands of proteins.
Actually, no. I didn't even say that.
Here is my actual quote #183 from the Creation/evolution thread:
"How did life with specifications for hundreds of proteins originate just by chemistry without intelligent design?"
This seems to have morphed into "1000's of base pairs".....
I prefer to think of "base pairs" as nucleotide residues.
Anyway, here is your quote #185 from the aforementioned thread:
"Ahh the infamous 'Gish gallop'
Lets concentrate on one point at a time
1.How did life with specifications for hundreds of proteins originate just by chemistry without intelligent design?
Question - what part of Abiogenisis states that the initial self-replicating molecule(chemistry) has to code for 100s of proteins ?
Fancy addressing this one issue first Russell ?"
Notice the change in inference between my statement and your rehash of it?
I said life!
You called it the first replicator.
AND then, you say..."the first replicating life form contained 1000s of base pairs,"
Not what I said.
I suppose you deny that a living replicating cell needs to produce hundreds of proteins to survive???
Anyhow, its back to the drawing board with you.
Get up to scratch with your reading and let's meet again.
Let's not waste my time with your silly NY resolutions.
I never lie.
Here's a bone for you to chew on....
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2...
You are quite correct - you specified coding for 1000s of proteins not containing 1000s of base pairs.

I know it was nonsense - but admit I was wrong on the specifics .

But unless I am mistaken (and ignoring for now the irelevance of abiogenisis to evolution), you never actually answered the question did you?

Question - what part of Abiogenisis states that the initial self-replicating molecule(chemistry) has to code for 100s of proteins ?

You see creationists tend to throw out misrepresentations of what evolution is actually about, state them as fact the debunk this misrepresentation - now I am sure you wouldn't do that would you?

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#115990 Feb 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Hey, Forum Fairy
You are the only PROVEN liar!
I have only just posted on the sister-thread http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/TMH...
Post #1623, that evolution hardly makes it as a theory, by the Dude's own definition, or anyone else's for that matter.
It can scarcely be called a hypothesis.
I noticed you keeping well away from discussion on ERV's!
Bottom still sore? Tsk, tsk...
Thank you for informing me about that piece of idiocy.

Do you know what a theory is? You still don't have one.

Now that you are showing a glimmering of knowledge of what it takes to formulate a theory I can definitely declare that you lied.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#115991 Feb 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Here you go Bud,
Read stuff before jumping in the deep end.....
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/17/6/669.full
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090312/full/n...
From: Erika Check Hayden, Human genome at ten: Life is complicated
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100331/full/4... , accessed today:
"When we started out, the idea was that signalling pathways were fairly simple and linear," says Tony Pawson, a cell biologist at the University of Toronto in Ontario. "Now, we appreciate that the signalling information in cells is organized through networks of information rather than simple discrete pathways. It's infinitely more complex."
Your problem is you're thinking linear.
That's redundant, so give it up.
The quaternary structure of DNA folding has huge implications
See,
Kapranov P, et al, "Genome-wide transcription and the implications for genomic organization", Nature Reviews. Genetics. 2007 Jun;8(6):413-23. Epub 2007 May 8
"Recent evidence of genome-wide transcription in several species indicates that the amount of transcription that occurs cannot be entirely accounted for by current sets of genome-wide annotations. Evidence indicates that most of both strands of the human genome might be transcribed, implying extensive overlap of transcriptional units and regulatory elements. These observations suggest that genomic architecture is not co-linear, but is instead interleaved and modular, and that the same genomic sequences are multifunctional: that is, used for multiple independently regulated transcripts and as regulatory regions."
Also, see
Rick Weiss, "Intricate Toiling Found In Nooks of DNA Once Believed to Stand Idle," http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/...
"The findings, from a project involving hundreds of scientists in 11 countries and detailed in 29 papers being published today, confirm growing suspicions that the stretches of "junk DNA" flanking hardworking genes are not junk at all. But the study goes further, indicating for the first time that the vast majority of the 3 billion "letters" of the human genetic code are busily toiling at an array of previously invisible tasks."
This is all ancient history...
Where've you been?
Nope. My approach is not linear thinking. I have no doubt that the process and control of gene expression is complex and non-linear.

It does not help the case for intelligent design one bit.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#115992 Feb 3, 2013
HTS wrote:
<quoted text>All of your so-called "evidence" is based solely on metaphysical presuppositions and is therefore baseless. If you have some actual science to back up NDT, let's see it. All you are capable of doing is blindly copying and pasting smokescreens
Rubbish.

The intermediates I listed were predictions of evolution. There is nothing metaphysical about tiktaalik, nor the fact that it was actively searched for according to predictions of existing fossil finds plus the assumption of common ancestry.

The lab controlled experiments in adaptation produced results that supported adaptation by mutation and selection.

There is nothing metaphysical about:

1. exponential reproduction with imperfect heredity

2. competition for limited resources

3. variable survival and reproduction rates depending on fitness to the environment.

It is actually you who is making a metaphysical supposition and merely repeating the smokescreens of blind critics.

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#115993 Feb 3, 2013
All this narcissist on narcissist violence. So sad!

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#115994 Feb 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Based on current observable phenomena, my theory is that evolution is patently wrong.
And, no.
Simply stating that I lie, does not make it true.
I never lie.
You mean, based on your incredulity that something as complex as the genome could evolve, right? Evolution generates complexity. Thus complexity is not an issue for evolution, so long as its incremental.

3.5 billion years of incrementalism can produce a lot more complexity that you are going to get your head around in a hurry.
Russell

Elizabeth, Australia

#115995 Feb 3, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean, based on your incredulity that something as complex as the genome could evolve, right? Evolution generates complexity. Thus complexity is not an issue for evolution, so long as its incremental.
3.5 billion years of incrementalism can produce a lot more complexity that you are going to get your head around in a hurry.
And the evidence is......?
Russell

Elizabeth, Australia

#115996 Feb 3, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Rubbish.
The intermediates I listed were predictions of evolution. There is nothing metaphysical about tiktaalik, nor the fact that it was actively searched for according to predictions of existing fossil finds plus the assumption of common ancestry.
The lab controlled experiments in adaptation produced results that supported adaptation by mutation and selection.
There is nothing metaphysical about:
1. exponential reproduction with imperfect heredity
2. competition for limited resources
3. variable survival and reproduction rates depending on fitness to the environment.
It is actually you who is making a metaphysical supposition and merely repeating the smokescreens of blind critics.
All natural selection...
Nothing to do with evolution.
You must be a new kid on the block
You're regurgitating already thoroughly debunked arguments
Russell

Elizabeth, Australia

#115998 Feb 3, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for informing me about that piece of idiocy.
Do you know what a theory is? You still don't have one.
Now that you are showing a glimmering of knowledge of what it takes to formulate a theory I can definitely declare that you lied.
Sore arse
Russell

Elizabeth, Australia

#115999 Feb 3, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
You are quite correct - you specified coding for 1000s of proteins not containing 1000s of base pairs.
I know it was nonsense - but admit I was wrong on the specifics .
But unless I am mistaken (and ignoring for now the irelevance of abiogenisis to evolution), you never actually answered the question did you?
Question - what part of Abiogenisis states that the initial self-replicating molecule(chemistry) has to code for 100s of proteins ?
You see creationists tend to throw out misrepresentations of what evolution is actually about, state them as fact the debunk this misrepresentation - now I am sure you wouldn't do that would you?
Got it wrong again, Mugwump!

Who said anything about self replicating molecule?

Ah ha! You did!
A "molecule" is not a "cell"

Go away
Think things through and return .....with a flair and verge...!!
Something exciting.....

Please....!

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#116000 Feb 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
All natural selection...
Nothing to do with evolution.
You must be a new kid on the block
You're regurgitating already thoroughly debunked arguments
You are conflating unsupported bullshit by creatards with debunking.

And once again, the laboratory test of E. coli that evolved the ability to digest citrate was not adaptation. The inability of E. coli to digest citrate is well known. In fact during the test they took these precaution to make sure that it was NOT adaptation:
. They used a number of genetic markers unique to this population to exclude the possibility that the citrate-using E. coli were contaminants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-ter...

Now you can make all of the unsupported creatard "adaptation" claims that you want. In this case we know that you are wrong.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#116001 Feb 3, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
Sore arse
Yes, with all of the humping that you have gotten tonight I can see why your ass is sore.
Russell

Elizabeth, Australia

#116002 Feb 3, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
You are conflating unsupported bullshit by creatards with debunking.
And once again, the laboratory test of E. coli that evolved the ability to digest citrate was not adaptation. The inability of E. coli to digest citrate is well known. In fact during the test they took these precaution to make sure that it was NOT adaptation:
<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-ter...
Now you can make all of the unsupported creatard "adaptation" claims that you want. In this case we know that you are wrong.
Are you for real, Bud?
Have you totally lost it?
Ever heard of the Krebs cycle?
Know what else it is known as?
Please do not embarrass your self

The bigger they are the harder they fall

E coli have a whole suite ---an operon---to confer citrate fermenting ability. They already possess the ability to "digest" citrate, but only under certain circumstances.

We have been through this before....
Short attention span?
Too close to bedtime?

Lenski himself stated, " A more likely possibility, in our view, is that an existing transporter has been co-opted for citrate transport under high oxic conditions"

Also see, in regards to the transporter:

Pos, K M, Dimroth, P and Bott, M, "The Escherichia coli Citrate Carrier CitT: a member of a novel eubacterial transporter family related to the 2-oxoglutarate/Malate translocator from Spinach chloroplasts, J Bacteriol 180(16):4160-4165, 1998. www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi...

This transporter is only activated under oxygen free conditions with good reason.

But you will never know the reason.....

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#116003 Feb 4, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
All natural selection...
Nothing to do with evolution.
You must be a new kid on the block
You're regurgitating already thoroughly debunked arguments
Not at all. I have heard your insistence on "debunked arguments" frequently in the last day or two but in four years on these sites and others, have never heard an actual debunking. I have seen many attempts.

Natural Selection is easily observed and one of the main two complementary processes of evolution, the other being mutation.

Unless you can come up with a convincing reason why the process of mutation and natural selection should not continue indefinitely, producing essentially open-ended variation, you have no argument.

And please do not be tempted to employ the following:

1. The earth is too young. Total anti-science across multiple disciplines,

2. Genetic Entropy. Debunked by experiment. Fitness recovers.

3. Irreducible complexity. Debunked in multiple examples but a failure even in principles as (a) you cannot identify and eliminate all potential pathways to a complex structure and (b) IC advocates tend to assume that the function represented today is the same function that the components were "driving towards" in the past, which is patently false.

4. No new information. Gene duplications and insertions are observed and add new information by any objective measure.

5. No transitionals. Patently false in the spirit offered. We speak of intermediates now, because we cannot be sure if species X or a related species actually gave rise to descendant species. However the fossil record follows the predicted pattern of divergence with modern forms and, simultaneously, convergence with contemporary forms as you track back through the strata.

6. Arguments by probability. Completely bogus as natural selection removes the constraint of pure independently calculated probability. Evolution drives the development of complexity, and natural selection is not a random process.

7. No macroevolution. We have a series of transitions showing the highly derived development of the 3-boned middle ear throughout the development of the synapsids and therapsids, mammal-like reptiles of the period around 230 million years ago. We will never have the complete record for all such transition in the history of life, but the principle is demonstrated.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#116004 Feb 4, 2013
Russell wrote:
<quoted text>
E coli have a whole suite ---an operon---to confer citrate fermenting ability. They already possess the ability to "digest" citrate, but only under certain circumstances.
We have been through this before....
Short attention span?
Too close to bedtime?
Lenski himself stated, " A more likely possibility, in our view, is that an existing transporter has been co-opted for citrate transport under high oxic conditions"
Also see, in regards to the transporter:
Pos, K M, Dimroth, P and Bott, M, "The Escherichia coli Citrate Carrier CitT: a member of a novel eubacterial transporter family related to the 2-oxoglutarate/Malate translocator from Spinach chloroplasts, J Bacteriol 180(16):4160-4165, 1998. www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi...
This transporter is only activated under oxygen free conditions with good reason.
But you will never know the reason.....
Co-opting and elaboration of existing systems is evolution.

The ability to digest citrate required a modification of existing systems and occurred through two separate mutations occurring thousands of generations apart, the first being apparently neutral until the second occurred.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#116005 Feb 4, 2013
Russell wrote:
This transporter is only activated under oxygen free conditions with good reason.
"Good reasons" that are obviously absent in the environmental conditions of the Lenski experiment. Hence the adaptation.

Now, once again, please present your argument as to why adaptation should not be a continual and open ended process? The distinction between adaptation and evolution raised by creationists is an artificial one. Evolution is simply adaptation occurring over long periods of time.

Don't tell me...you're a YEC.
Mugwump

London, UK

#116006 Feb 4, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
And for reference, here is that thread. Where Russ starts out lying from the very first post:
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/TMH...
Despite his many mistakes he's not conceded a single one.
Cheers dude - for some reason that thread only showed up on my phone, not on the tablet - hence could go back and fact check the details of the nonsense.

Strange that creationists never fess up to lying - thought there should be a commandment about it personally.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#116007 Feb 4, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
You are conflating unsupported bullshit by creatards with debunking.
And once again, the laboratory test of E. coli that evolved the ability to digest citrate was not adaptation. The inability of E. coli to digest citrate is well known. In fact during the test they took these precaution to make sure that it was NOT adaptation:
<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._coli_long-ter...
Now you can make all of the unsupported creatard "adaptation" claims that you want. In this case we know that you are wrong.
Wait a sec, lets get our terms straight.

Developing the ability to digest citrate was an adaptation. All evolution is adaptation (with the exception of drift). Evolution is just a load of adaptation, iteration after iteration, with new variation entering via mutations and selected for, or against, by survival and reproductive fitness.

What I want to hear is Russell's explanation of how he thinks this process somehow stops at some point, because if it dos not, that IS evolution!
Russell

Elizabeth, Australia

#116008 Feb 4, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Wait a sec, lets get our terms straight.
Developing the ability to digest citrate was an adaptation. All evolution is adaptation (with the exception of drift). Evolution is just a load of adaptation, iteration after iteration, with new variation entering via mutations and selected for, or against, by survival and reproductive fitness.
What I want to hear is Russell's explanation of how he thinks this process somehow stops at some point, because if it dos not, that IS evolution!
Monod and Jacob must be turning in their graves....

Anyhoo...
This is all covered ground...

Just ask the Dude while he sits in a corner, cradling SETMAR, gentle rocking back and forth, saying, "I like you SETMAR. You're not all useless for evolutionary causes...I still like you...."

No mate.

Adaptation is not evolution.
Lenski started with an organism with a complete genome. Reasonable to suggest that the transporter gene suffered a mutation. May have been neutral. A second mutation may have...who knows, converted the tartrate transporter to start transporting citrate even with oxygen present?
Who knows really....
However, evolution it ain't.

Citrate transportation is energy hungry. Therefore reserved only for special occasions where anaerobic respiration, less efficient, is needed. It benefits the organism to have this switched off in times of oxygen replete-ness

A mutation ruining this status quo, eg no citrate uptake unless absolutely needed...is not beneficial.

By the way, the generations needed to achieve just two mutations was 20,000. This is with huge numbers with short generation times...the mutations were barely achievable....

What does this say for human or mammalian evolution?

This has all been covered before...

I get the feeling that you view, as SubDud does, life as a huge overturned bowl of Jelly, with DNA amd RNA darting around ferociously mutating wildly and producing....well, er....design...

No Bud, that just does not work.

What else you got?
Russell

Elizabeth, Australia

#116009 Feb 4, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
Cheers dude - for some reason that thread only showed up on my phone, not on the tablet - hence could go back and fact check the details of the nonsense.
Strange that creationists never fess up to lying - thought there should be a commandment about it personally.
C'mon Mugwump
Stop being such a baby

What else you got?
You're stuck on 1000's base pairs and nothing can budge you!

Pretty stubborn creature?
By the way, have you met Prof Andy McIntosh? Much beloved by creationists and despised by the Dude?

I think the Dude is just jealous since HE has no thermodynamic credentials....

Nothing to be jealous of, the Dude....
You too could be a Christian and Creationist one day, just like good ol' Prof

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