Should evolution be taught in high sc...

Should evolution be taught in high school?

There are 180366 comments on the www.scientificblogging.com story from Feb 24, 2008, titled Should evolution be taught in high school?. In it, www.scientificblogging.com reports that:

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.scientificblogging.com.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#114868 Jan 21, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Some numbers to ponder for Dr. Mary Schweitzer:
Suppose you were to count the number of nucleotides in the DNA sample you obtained from your dinosaur and we calculated its age using a half-life decay formula? Letís use the recently determined half-life of DNA of 520 years and an original genome amount of dinosaur DNA of 2B nucleotides. Say for example, you were to count, say, 3 million nucleotides in your soft tissue bone cells. What is the age of the dinosaur?
2B = No (1/2)^T/t = 2B (1/2)^T/520; (Solve for T); T = 4,662 Years. Now thatís mildly interesting. OK
Or, in honor of Dr. Willard Libby, winner of the 1960 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his discovery of C-14 dating, suppose we were to analyze the bone cells for C14 content. Suppose you found that there was about 173.5 megacurries. We assume an atmospheric content of 300 megacurries and the standard C-14 half-life of 5,730 years. We apply the half-life formula:
300 = No (1/2)^T/5, 730 (Solve for T); T = 4,527 Years. Brilliant!

I suppose that if pigs had wings they could fly.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#114869 Jan 21, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Sorry, corrected:
Some numbers to ponder for Dr. Mary Schweitzer:
Suppose you were to count the number of nucleotides in the DNA sample you obtained from your dinosaur and we calculated its age using a half-life decay formula? Letís use the recently determined half-life of DNA of 520 years and an original genome amount of dinosaur DNA of 2B nucleotides. Say for example, you were to count, say, 3 million nucleotides in your soft tissue bone cells. What is the age of the dinosaur?
3M = 2B (1/2)^T/520; (Solve for T); T = 4,662 Years. Now thatís mildly interesting. OK
Or, in honor of Dr. Willard Libby, winner of the 1960 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his discovery of C-14 dating, suppose we were to analyze the bone cells for C14 content. Suppose you found that there was about 173.5 megacurries. We assume an atmospheric content of 300 megacurries and the standard C-14 half-life of 5,730 years. We apply the half-life formula:
173.5 = 300 (1/2)^T/5,730 (Solve for T); T = 4,527 Years. Brilliant!
And can be checked using the following calculator:
http://www.calculator.net/half-life-calculato...

I can crap too. Come to my bathroom and I will show you.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#114870 Jan 21, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
Kind of with you on this one, if science was distract itself to pander to every scientifically unsupported idea we would end up testing bacteria for Mensa and seeing if gravitational effects increase on a bloody circus waltzer.
Of course creation science could carry out legitimate research to support its claims ....
Again, this is not the same thing.

There is no theoretical demand in evolution that dinosaurs all had to die 65 mya.

And, since we know that publicly, although not scientifically, there is a war against evolution and old earth geology. Do you think its pandering to actually run a test to show that the dino sample is more than 100kya? One also might call it arrogance to refuse.

I would welcome it as a way to discredit another YEC argument.

Of course, if I am wrong...that would be interesting too!

“Merry Christmas”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Happy New Year

#114871 Jan 21, 2013
nemesis wrote:
<quoted text>We felt the same way before our encounter. Seeing is all the evidence we needed. After the craft exited the area, my friend screamed, "Lets get out of here before they come back!" That's when I knew it was real and not a psychotic episode. I told her to calm down because I knew this would be a once in a lifetime event. I then exited the auto, looked in all directions and saw nothing. WOW! I hope it does happen again. Most people would block that memory. I pray to the alien Gods it happens again.....no fear anymore, just curiosity.You watch all these movies about alien invasions. These beings had complete and total control of our minds....the body follows.....amazing. If they ever decide to take over this rock there will be no resistance....only control of the human mind and not a shot fired.......peace!
I'm with you on this man. I had an encounter in the Ozarks many years ago. I never told anyone because who would believe it. I was driving along a stretch of rural highway one night very late. There wasn't another vehicle out and about or so I thought. After a time, I noticed what I thought were headlights getting closer. As these lights approached I could hear what sounded like a horn blowing the same note over and over again. At first I thought it might be an emergency vehicle because the "headlights" were surrounded by numerous smaller, flashing multi-colored lights. I had an eerie feeling so I sped up, but the faster I seemed to go, the faster the vehicle behind me seemed to be catching up. I was thinking that we were just going to keep going faster and faster until my car reached its limit or I wrecked. I was about to pull over when the craft pulled up next to me. A window on what must have been the drivers compartment rolled down and this little green guy leans out and yells, "Hey buddy. How do you get this thing out of second gear?"

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#114872 Jan 21, 2013
One way or another wrote:
One of lenski's assistants had to deny that colony its normal amount of glucose, by more than approx 1/3 to 1/2, or the colony would have basically, gone on a diet.
The bacteria were forced to make use of the citrate, just to stay alive, one of the assistants had to deny that colony enough glucose to sustain the colony and its likely, that all their glucose was taken, forcing them to eat the citrate.
Where are you getting this rubbish? All flasks had both citrate and glucose. But only the bacteria in one flask developed the ability to digest the citrate. And this was a result of two independent mutations in the genome occurring thousands of generations apart, so the first mutation had no effect.

The time taken and the fact that the mutations occurred many generations apart speaks for the random nature of the mutations. If the bacteria were "smart", why the gap between first and second mutation? and why was only ONE flask's bacteria smart enough to develop this useful ability.

Because its wasn't smarts, it was random mutation.

And why am I even bothering to respond to you when you A/have not learned anything about these experiments and just shoot your mouth off as usual. And B/ never listen anyway when your foolish errors are pointed out.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#114873 Jan 21, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
The T-Rex bones that Dr Schweitzer looked at were what 68,000,000 years old, not 60,000 years oldĖ hmmmm just about 1000 times older than the limits for C14 radiocarbon dating. So once again you vomit up an irrelevancy.
The are allegedly 68mya, because that is what we have come to expect based on our understanding from other sources when t-rex died out.

Now, imagine if you will, that before a live coelacanth had been found, a "recent" fossilised one was found, lets say it was 10,000 years old. At that time, scientists might have said - no point c-14 dating, because the last lobe finned fish disappeared tens of millions of years ago!

I think sometimes we should get off the largely taxpayer funded high horse and perform a damned test to put an issue to rest. I am fully aware that this is more a political than a scientific controversy, but so what? YECs pay their taxes too!

Why not just do the damned test, and prove that c-14 levels are at background level indicating an age in excess of the limits of c-14 dating. Its still way older than YECs believe is the age of the earth. Well and good. Even better, they cannot claim that "secular scientists" are afraid to do the test or refuse to question their own theories yahdeyah.

I think its a good idea.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#114874 Jan 21, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Sorry, corrected:
Some numbers to ponder for Dr. Mary Schweitzer:
Suppose you were to count the number of nucleotides in the DNA sample you obtained from your dinosaur and we calculated its age using a half-life decay formula? Letís use the recently determined half-life of DNA of 520 years and an original genome amount of dinosaur DNA of 2B nucleotides. Say for example, you were to count, say, 3 million nucleotides in your soft tissue bone cells. What is the age of the dinosaur?
3M = 2B (1/2)^T/520; (Solve for T); T = 4,662 Years. Now thatís mildly interesting. OK
Or, in honor of Dr. Willard Libby, winner of the 1960 Nobel Prize in Chemistry for his discovery of C-14 dating, suppose we were to analyze the bone cells for C14 content. Suppose you found that there was about 173.5 megacurries. We assume an atmospheric content of 300 megacurries and the standard C-14 half-life of 5,730 years. We apply the half-life formula:
173.5 = 300 (1/2)^T/5,730 (Solve for T); T = 4,527 Years. Brilliant!
And can be checked using the following calculator:
http://www.calculator.net/half-life-calculato...
You would still have a problem.

The "half life" refers to intact nucleotide SEQUENCES, i.e. the actual information content embedded in DNA.

By analogy, if a brick building had a half life of 521 years, and gradually fell down into a pile of rubble, there would still be bricks even 20,000 years later, but the sequence (structure / information) would be lost.

So the presence of random nucleotides does not indicate intact DNA, not even 1/1000th of the original. Whats more with such fragmentary remains, who would you know that any sequences found were not simply randomly re-arranged and recombined nucleotides?

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#114875 Jan 21, 2013
nemesis wrote:
<quoted text>We felt the same way before our encounter. Seeing is all the evidence we needed. After the craft exited the area, my friend screamed, "Lets get out of here before they come back!" That's when I knew it was real and not a psychotic episode. I told her to calm down because I knew this would be a once in a lifetime event. I then exited the auto, looked in all directions and saw nothing. WOW! I hope it does happen again. Most people would block that memory. I pray to the alien Gods it happens again.....no fear anymore, just curiosity.You watch all these movies about alien invasions. These beings had complete and total control of our minds....the body follows.....amazing. If they ever decide to take over this rock there will be no resistance....only control of the human mind and not a shot fired.......peace!
Personal revelation is necessarily first-person. Show us evidence, or it's just as true as invisible pink unicorns on Pluto.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#114876 Jan 21, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The are allegedly 68mya, because that is what we have come to expect based on our understanding from other sources when t-rex died out.
Now, imagine if you will, that before a live coelacanth had been found, a "recent" fossilised one was found, lets say it was 10,000 years old. At that time, scientists might have said - no point c-14 dating, because the last lobe finned fish disappeared tens of millions of years ago!
I think sometimes we should get off the largely taxpayer funded high horse and perform a damned test to put an issue to rest. I am fully aware that this is more a political than a scientific controversy, but so what? YECs pay their taxes too!
Why not just do the damned test, and prove that c-14 levels are at background level indicating an age in excess of the limits of c-14 dating. Its still way older than YECs believe is the age of the earth. Well and good. Even better, they cannot claim that "secular scientists" are afraid to do the test or refuse to question their own theories yahdeyah.
I think its a good idea.
Because scientists have to justify their use of resources. "There are idiots who don't understand how science works, and they want us to run these tests so they can accept that the Earth isn't less than BILLIONS of years old, and they won't accept the results anyway because it's all part of a grand worldwide conspiracy against the Bible" isn't exactly going to do that. If these retards think something more should be done, they can go find their own evidence and have it tested according to accepted methodologies and accept the findings if the tests are done properly. We all know they won't do that, though. They don't need to prove themselves correct for suckers to believe them, so why go to the trouble and expense?
One way or another

United States

#114877 Jan 21, 2013
Time always tells

Childish clique syndrome
There is a group of people here that are paid to control the government line. It doesn't matter what's said, if it ain't gov sanctioned, they will say anything to keep people from thinking for themselves.

They do this with the childish clique syndrome, that we all dealt with when we were children and unfortunately, it still works on the majority. That is how America is being taken over.

Your choice, help them destroy America or don't.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Location hidden

#114878 Jan 21, 2013
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
Because scientists have to justify their use of resources. "There are idiots who don't understand how science works, and they want us to run these tests so they can accept that the Earth isn't less than BILLIONS of years old, and they won't accept the results anyway because it's all part of a grand worldwide conspiracy against the Bible" isn't exactly going to do that. If these retards think something more should be done, they can go find their own evidence and have it tested according to accepted methodologies and accept the findings if the tests are done properly. We all know they won't do that, though. They don't need to prove themselves correct for suckers to believe them, so why go to the trouble and expense?
C-14 is not an expensive test.

And to remind you - in most cases the resources you are referring to are taxpayer funded, and many of those taxpayers are YECS. So if they want the test done, I see no reason why it shouldn't be.

Why not? Its an easy win for evolution, is it not? Here you have all these Ben Stein type ningnongs claiming that "secular science" is in a conspiracy against them, and this refusal to perform a simple test just adds to their conviction.

Hey, they gave samples of the Turin Shroud for testing. It came out to around 1200 AD as I recall. Easy!
One way or another

United States

#114879 Jan 21, 2013
The children here refuse to recognize the conditions in which bacteria started eating part of the nylon. The bacteria don't actually eat nylon.

“Be strong ...”

Level 6

Since: Nov 10

...I whispered to my coffee

#114880 Jan 21, 2013
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
'Course we pointed this out to him LAST year. What they got is collagen, a very stable protien, dried and hermetically sealed inside solid rock. Cowboy's solution was that all dating techniques are flawed therefore underwent rapid-hyper decay over the past 6,000 years cuz how do we know things didn't work like TOTALLY different cuz we weren't there anyway, and the entire universe survived sterilisation due to Goddidit with magic.
Then he complained about the mean old evo's not using carbon dating on the sample even though he doesn't even believe in carbon dating anyway. Ironic eh?
<quoted text>
That's ALL Cowboy can do.(shrug)
Ironic???Ė Irony meter it go bang

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#114881 Jan 21, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, this is not the same thing.
There is no theoretical demand in evolution that dinosaurs all had to die 65 mya.
And, since we know that publicly, although not scientifically, there is a war against evolution and old earth geology. Do you think its pandering to actually run a test to show that the dino sample is more than 100kya? One also might call it arrogance to refuse.
I would welcome it as a way to discredit another YEC argument.
Of course, if I am wrong...that would be interesting too!

At this point the chance of biological contamination is probably 100%. We would need to find a new sample and run the tests on that.

It is still as pointless as equipping the mars rovers with LGM detection units.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#114882 Jan 21, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The are allegedly 68mya, because that is what we have come to expect based on our understanding from other sources when t-rex died out.
Now, imagine if you will, that before a live coelacanth had been found, a "recent" fossilised one was found, lets say it was 10,000 years old. At that time, scientists might have said - no point c-14 dating, because the last lobe finned fish disappeared tens of millions of years ago!
I think sometimes we should get off the largely taxpayer funded high horse and perform a damned test to put an issue to rest. I am fully aware that this is more a political than a scientific controversy, but so what? YECs pay their taxes too!
Why not just do the damned test, and prove that c-14 levels are at background level indicating an age in excess of the limits of c-14 dating. Its still way older than YECs believe is the age of the earth. Well and good. Even better, they cannot claim that "secular scientists" are afraid to do the test or refuse to question their own theories yahdeyah.
I think its a good idea.

I will agree with you if you can make a case that even one creationist would change their mind.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#114883 Jan 21, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
C-14 is not an expensive test.
And to remind you - in most cases the resources you are referring to are taxpayer funded, and many of those taxpayers are YECS. So if they want the test done, I see no reason why it shouldn't be.
Why not? Its an easy win for evolution, is it not? Here you have all these Ben Stein type ningnongs claiming that "secular science" is in a conspiracy against them, and this refusal to perform a simple test just adds to their conviction.
Hey, they gave samples of the Turin Shroud for testing. It came out to around 1200 AD as I recall. Easy!

C-14 testing on Dino soft tissue is a VERY expensive test. It DESTROYS the dino soft tissue.

Would you recommend a destructive test on the hope diamond? By comparison to Dino genetic material large diamonds litter the streets.

“May you be at peace.”

Since: Nov 07

Mars

#114884 Jan 21, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, they gave samples of the Turin Shroud for testing. It came out to around 1200 AD as I recall. Easy!

And no one disputes the results of that test.


/sarcasm.
Mugwump

UK

#114885 Jan 21, 2013
One way or another wrote:
Time always tells
Childish clique syndrome
There is a group of people here that are paid to control the government line. It doesn't matter what's said, if it ain't gov sanctioned, they will say anything to keep people from thinking for themselves.
They do this with the childish clique syndrome, that we all dealt with when we were children and unfortunately, it still works on the majority. That is how America is being taken over.
Your choice, help them destroy America or don't.
Yeah, but think of the problems it cause ME being a British stooge for the US Jewish carpet laying elite.

I get paid in dollars so my income actually fluctuates with the GBP/USD exchange rate.

I have to keep all the paperwork (even though its classified) to submit for my UK tax return every year.

7 hour trip each way for team meetings

I sometimes wonder if it is worth it
Urban Cowboy

United States

#114886 Jan 21, 2013
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
C-14 is not an expensive test.
And to remind you - in most cases the resources you are referring to are taxpayer funded, and many of those taxpayers are YECS. So if they want the test done, I see no reason why it shouldn't be.
Why not? Its an easy win for evolution, is it not? Here you have all these Ben Stein type ningnongs claiming that "secular science" is in a conspiracy against them, and this refusal to perform a simple test just adds to their conviction.
Hey, they gave samples of the Turin Shroud for testing. It came out to around 1200 AD as I recall. Easy!
Yes of course it should be tested by creation scientist ONLY! PS - The Shroud is between 1300 - 3000 years old.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4210369.stm
MIDutch

Sterling Heights, MI

#114887 Jan 21, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes of course it should be tested by creation scientist ONLY! PS - The Shroud is between 1300 - 3000 years old.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4210369.stm
Well, since there are NO "creation scientists" who actually do any science, as evidenced by 2000+ years worth of ABYSMAL FAILURE at producing anything in support of "creationism", then you may have to wait a long time for any science to be done.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Evolution Debate Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
News Why Atheist Richard Dawkins Supports Religious ... (Jun '17) 22 min dollarsbill 5,079
What's your religion? 1 hr Subduction Zone 183
News It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in e... (Mar '09) 2 hr was auch immer 165,439
News "Science vs. Religion: What Scientists Really T... (Jan '12) 3 hr Subduction Zone 85,704
Humans evolved from Canadians Sat Mystic science 1
Evolution of the Tennessean species Sat Mystic science 1
Experiment In Evolution, Genetic Algorithms and... Sat was auch immer 10
More from around the web