Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 Full story: www.scientificblogging.com 173,752

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand." Full Story

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#114720 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Another question is, what about the dino soft tissue and it's half-life? Since the dino soft tissue is not in dispute, perhaps the same procedure can be applied to soft tissue. Original amount-remaining amount-half life, etc. How to define orginal amount. Do animal cells decay similarly?
To echo an earlier post, isn't it interesting that when it suits your purposes, half-lives are valid scientifically, but when it DOESN'T suit your purposes, half-lives are invalid scientifically?

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114721 Jan 19, 2013
Mugwump wrote:
<quoted text>
Just to clarify - elementary was some 2 years AFTER our brilliant re-imagining of the Conan Doyle masterpiece.
So you cut 'n' pasted it Moron :-)
Seriously - check it out if you can get it - is really well done and if you read the originals you would appreciate it
But in the spirit of goodwill - thanks for family guy
&$@@(&?<arrogant$*@ ?/brit.

;)

Seriously, I will try to give it a look.

Of course House is a "Sherlock" character in a medical setting. The only problem it the title character is yet another Brit!

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114722 Jan 19, 2013
One way or another wrote:
Lenski's antibiotic claim.
Original work
By Jim Ryan
Supported by evidence
Lenski and or lederberg should have had the sense to reversed the experiment, to show that when 10 million antibiotic resistantt bacteria were cultured, they produced one that was non antibiotic resistant. One or both should have cultured 10 million bacteria that were non resistant, to see if an antibiotic resistant bacteria developed.
Bacteria may develop both every 10 millionth one as a memory device. If so, that should tell science quite a lot.
True

Absent a lit review your claim is meaningless.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114723 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Chimney, why do you insist on being so stupid? I noticed you finally snuck in an exponent. Good. That's a little progress but still very wrong. You really need to use the standard half-life formula.

No he doesn't. Why? Because he understands the concept and can apply it.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text> What we want to know here is given the half-life, the initial amount of dna and the remaining amount of dna, how much time has elapsed. NOT given it's 65M years old, how much dna is left?

It IS a given that it is 65 million years old. We know that the same way we know the age of the DNA that was measured in the "half-life" study.

Second, and perhaps I should have lead with this, is that you DON'T want to know the real answer. You want to make the answer conform to your theology. If not you would be quoting the tens of thousands of studies that show the earth is billions of years old. But you aren't, you are quoting the ONE that you can WARP into maybe conforming to your a priori assumptions.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text> No, no, no! That's not right. You are being totally childish and dishonest.(And stupid as hell!) Face reality. M. Schweitzer does have some dino dna and the half-life of 521 years is peer-reviewed research.

No, she has remnants of what used to be DNA and THAT is peer reviewed research.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text> We can estimate the original amount of dino dna based on the genomes of similar living animals. 65 million is NOT part of the equation.

Then you are solving for something only using estimates. You can prove ANYTHING that way. Look at the Drake equation. Do you want to be the only life in the universe? I can manipulate the variables to get that answer if I like.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text> We have the data values from real, published research papers. We have the dna. we have the 521 year half-life. We have a reasonable estimate of the original amount of dna. But We Do Not Have How Old It Is. It's not 65 million years. That is just all in your mind you fool. It is just you being a voodoo darwin zombee. "Must be 65 million years because that's is required by the theory".

No. 65 million years is established by countless dating methods that are known to be reliable. That it is a fact has nothing to do with evolution. AND you are proceeding from a false assumption. You are ASSUMING the earth is only 10,000 years old. If true, all the other facts that have been discovered are still true. The only difference would be is that we could not (yet) explain how life evolved so rapidly in that time frame.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text> (Eyes closed-arms outstretched, walking and spoken like a zombee monster of course.) Boy Chimney, certain things (like threats to your ideology) push your buttons and make you just go wackadoodle. As if you go insane. I hope it's not permanent.

The rest is just projection and needs no response. You need to learn about how science world. Starting with an answer and working backward to find variables that fit is not the answer.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Lithonia, GA

#114724 Jan 19, 2013
One way or another wrote:
Lenski's antibiotic claim.
Original work
By Jim Ryan
Supported by evidence
Lenski and or lederberg should have had the sense to reversed the experiment, to show that when 10 million antibiotic resistantt bacteria were cultured, they produced one that was non antibiotic resistant. One or both should have cultured 10 million bacteria that were non resistant, to see if an antibiotic resistant bacteria developed.
Bacteria may develop both every 10 millionth one as a memory device. If so, that should tell science quite a lot.
True
Lenski grew twelve different cultures in various liquid media designed to provoke selection and thus, some evolution. But after 20 years and some 50,000 generations, nothing. Actually, the opposite happened. The E.coli adapted soon and quickly acheived stasis or steady fitness. After sequencing the dna at intervals of 2000, 5000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 and 40,000 etc. Over time, however, fitness declined to the point where he stopped reporting on fitness at the halfway point in his research because the data did not favor the evolutionary model and thus embarassing but strongly favoring the creation model.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114725 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
Another question is, what about the dino soft tissue and it's half-life? Since the dino soft tissue is not in dispute, perhaps the same procedure can be applied to soft tissue. Original amount-remaining amount-half life, etc. How to define orginal amount. Do animal cells decay similarly?

How many times will you make this same error?

The soft tissue was dehydrated and in hermetically sealed environment. Based on that it could last forever!

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114726 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
"Schweitzer and her team also tested for the presence of DNA within the cellular structures, using an antibody that only binds to the "backbone" of DNA. The antibody reacted to small amounts of material within the "cells" of both the T. rex and the B. canadensis. To rule out the presence of microbes, they used an antibody that binds histone proteins, which bind tightly to the DNA of everything except microbes, and got another positive result. They then ran two other histochemical stains which fluoresce when they attach to DNA molecules. Those tests were also positive. These data strongly suggest that the DNA is original, but without sequence data, it is impossible to confirm that the DNA is dinosaurian."
http://phys.org/news/2012-10-analysis-dinosau...

In other words the DNA could be from anything.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114728 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
"The discovery of soft, transparent microstructures in dinosaur bone consistent in morphology with osteocytes was controversial. We hypothesize that, if original, these microstructures will have molecular features in common with extant osteocytes. We present immunological and mass spectrometry evidence for preservation of proteins comprising extant osteocytes (Actin, Tubulin, PHEX, Histone H4) in osteocytes recovered from two non-avian dinosaurs. Furthermore, antibodies to DNA show localized binding to these microstructures, which also react positively with DNA intercalating stains propidium iodide (PI) and 4&#8242;,6&#8242;-diam idino-2-phenylindole dihydrochloride (DAPI). Each antibody binds dinosaur cells in patterns similar to extant cells. These data are the first to support preservation of multiple proteins and to present multiple lines of evidence for material consistent with DNA in dinosaurs, supporting the hypothesis that these structures were part of the once living animals. We propose mechanisms for preservation of cells and component molecules, and discuss implications for dinosaurian cellular biology.
Highlights
&#9658; Multiple lines of evidence support endogeneity of osteocyte-like microstructures in two dinosaurs. &#9658; We show the first binding of bone-specific monoclonal antibody to ‘cells’ of these dinosaurs. &#9658; Four independent lines of evidence support the presence of a component chemically consistent with DNA. &#9658; We propose a novel mechanism for the preservation of these materials over geological time.
"
http://www.thebonejournal.com/article/S8756-3... (12)01318-X/abstract

I hate to tell you "we told you so", but we did tell you so.

Okay, I actually enjoyed saying that.

Perhaps your lack of professional experience in reading scientific research is hampering you here.

And you mean they have a mechanism for preservation over that time period?! I get another "told you so" in right here.

If you would learn enough about real science you could understand it. Scientists are very precise in their wording. Why did she not just say they found Dino DNA? There is a very precise reason.

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

Lithonia, GA

#114729 Jan 19, 2013
The Lenski study and many others show that creatures adapt with their built-in genetic diversity which allows for rapid adaptation to new environments followed by stasis. A created kind does not ever become some different type of creature, but makes slight changes to adapt to the new environment.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114730 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
"However, they still contained what appear to be the proteins you would expect to find in living osteocytes, as well as at least some remnants of DNA. That’s the amazing part of their results. These bones are supposed to be more than 65 million years old, yet they hold fossilized remains of cells that still contain their proteins and some DNA."
http://blog.drwile.com/...
How much? How much?

Proteins.
65 million years old
"some" DNA. They can't sequence it therefore it is NOT full strands of DNA. Even YOU claim that would be impossible.

Further your source is a fundy who is not qualified to deal with paleontology any more than I am. His claim to fame is writing pseudoscience text books for home schoolers.


“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114731 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Lenski grew twelve different cultures in various liquid media designed to provoke selection and thus, some evolution. But after 20 years and some 50,000 generations, nothing. Actually, the opposite happened. The E.coli adapted soon and quickly acheived stasis or steady fitness.

That is the PREDICTION of evolution. That organism will evolve to better fit their environment. The environment was STABLE!!!

Can you comprehend that. A STABLE environment.

What does evolution predict that a poplulation will do after a change to their environment that is consistant after that? DUH. That they will change rapidly to fit the environment then stay similar to that till another change comes along.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text> After sequencing the dna at intervals of 2000, 5000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 and 40,000 etc. Over time, however, fitness declined to the point where he stopped reporting on fitness at the halfway point in his research because the data did not favor the evolutionary model and thus embarassing but strongly favoring the creation model.

This is incorrect. You clearly have never read any factual information about this important research. Aren't you aware that creationists lie to you 24/7?

This is the stake though the heart of creotardism.

“Don't get me started”

Level 1

Since: Jul 09

Minneapolis

#114732 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
The starting point is the genome size of T-rex which I est. at 2B bp. Seems reasonable. Birds and reptiles range around 1B to 3B bps. Sorry, but nobody to my knowledge has ever sequenced a dino DNA last time I checked. Maybe you have another suggestion?
Actually, the real starting point is to take another look at the half life of DNA under a variety of conditions. That seems to be the real issue. The age of the actual T-rex can be determined by several very trustworthy methods, so if some of the T-rex DNA is still there, then the real question is under what circumstances can DNA be preserved for a much longer time than what we would expect it to be preserved.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#114733 Jan 19, 2013
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
That is the PREDICTION of evolution. That organism will evolve to better fit their environment. The environment was STABLE!!!
Can you comprehend that. A STABLE environment.
In "creotard world", the E. coli should have evolved into horses with wings.

That's what happens to your brain when you get your science out of bronze age, goat herder FAIRY TALES.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#114734 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
The Lenski study and many others show that creatures adapt with their built-in genetic diversity which allows for rapid adaptation to new environments followed by stasis. A created kind does not ever become some different type of creature, but makes slight changes to adapt to the new environment.

I refuted this earlier.
noblex

Kansas City, MO

#114735 Jan 19, 2013
Blah, Blah........Scientist believe when they send a deep space prob millions of miles into space it will make contact with primitive life forms on earth like planets...? Wait, SETI has nothing? Craft do visit this rock. Why would they send a probe when aliens(advanced life forms that avoid human contact at all cost) visit earth? Aliens made humans believe they are Gods...and it worked!

Level 6

Since: Aug 07

United States

#114736 Jan 19, 2013
Early quote from Dr. Mary Schweitzer on her finding:

"It was exactly like looking at a slice of modern bone. But of course, I couldn’t believe it. I said to the lab technician:“The bones are, after all, 65 million years old. How could blood cells survive that long?”

-Schweitzer, M.H., Montana State University Museum of the Rockies; cited on p. 160 of Morell, V., Dino DNA: The hunt and the hype, Science 261(5118):160–162, 9 July 1993

What she should say:

This looks like modern bone; I have seen blood cells [and blood vessels] and detected hemoglobin [and now actin, tubulin, collagen, histones, and DNA], and real chemistry shows they can’t survive for 65 million years. What I don’t see is the claimed millions of years. So we should abandon this doctrine.

Furthermore, we just stop refusing to perform Carbon-14 dating analysis simply for ideological reasons and see just how old this dinosaur really is.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#114737 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Chimney, why do you insist on being so stupid? I noticed you finally snuck in an exponent.
The exponent was there from my first post! Don't you understand the following terminology?

2^3 MEANS "two raised the the third power".

You do know what "to the power of" means right? As in "ten to the power of three = a thousand?

They are all exponential expressions.

If you check my original post #114,506

“65m/521 = 124,760 halvings (1/2^124,760)which would have long ago left less than "1 base" intact even in a sample the size of the earth!”

That means one over (2 to the power of 124,760).

That’s an exponent.

Your apology is accepted in advance.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#114738 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
The Lenski study and many others show that creatures adapt with their built-in genetic diversity which allows for rapid adaptation to new environments followed by stasis. A created kind does not ever become some different type of creature, but makes slight changes to adapt to the new environment.
False. All Lenski samples were originally taken from a single bacterium, not a diverse population.

All genetic novelty was therefore a result of mutations from the original mono-clonal sample. New change, not selection from existing diversity.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#114739 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Lenski grew twelve different cultures in various liquid media designed to provoke selection and thus, some evolution. But after 20 years and some 50,000 generations, nothing. Actually, the opposite happened. The E.coli adapted soon and quickly acheived stasis or steady fitness. After sequencing the dna at intervals of 2000, 5000, 10,000, 15,000, 20,000 and 40,000 etc. Over time, however, fitness declined to the point where he stopped reporting on fitness at the halfway point in his research because the data did not favor the evolutionary model and thus embarassing but strongly favoring the creation model.
Wrong again. The samples gradually adapted and populations rose slowly, generation after generation, wut with a levelling off.

The in one flask, the population exploded. This was found to be a result of the new ability to digest citrate and thus increase the available food. It was also found to be the result of two mutations, one occurring thousands of generations before the other with no apparent effect until the second one occurred. Thus what looked like a merely neutral mutation turned out to be a beneficial one.

Furthermore, your general point that such mutations are always a loss of fitness compared to the wild variaties - for example the development of antibiotic resistance - has also been proven false.

While it does often occur, about 20% of cases of improved antibiotic resistant bacteria are found to be fitter even in the absence of the antibiotic and in the wild populations, rapidly taking over (classic "superbugs").

More nails in the coffin for you and your misguided pal Sanford.

Level 6

Since: Mar 12

Dubai, UAE

#114740 Jan 19, 2013
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Chimney, why do you insist on being so stupid? I noticed you finally snuck in an exponent. Good. That's a little progress but still very wrong. You really need to use the standard half-life formula. What we want to know here is given the half-life, the initial amount of dna and the remaining amount of dna, how much time has elapsed. NOT given it's 65M years old, how much dna is left? No, no, no! That's not right. You are being totally childish and dishonest.(And stupid as hell!) Face reality. M. Schweitzer does have some dino dna and the half-life of 521 years is peer-reviewed research. We can estimate the original amount of dino dna based on the genomes of similar living animals. 65 million is NOT part of the equation. We have the data values from real, published research papers. We have the dna. we have the 521 year half-life. We have a reasonable estimate of the original amount of dna. But We Do Not Have How Old It Is. It's not 65 million years. That is just all in your mind you fool. It is just you being a voodoo darwin zombee. "Must be 65 million years because that's is required by the theory".(Eyes closed-arms outstretched, walking and spoken like a zombee monster of course.) Boy Chimney, certain things (like threats to your ideology) push your buttons and make you just go wackadoodle. As if you go insane. I hope it's not permanent.
Actually, I have more to say about this.

My original, CORRECT calculation, WITH an exponential decline curve as expected by a half life calculation, used 65 million years to demonstrate, IN AGREEMENT WITH YOU, that no DNA should be intact if the sample was, in fact, 65m years old and if the 521 year half life is a generally reliable indicator. You are so combative that you do not even know when someone is agreeing with you.

Now, does the theory of evolution REQUIRE all dinosaur DNA to be 65 million years old? Nope. It would not even violate evolution if some living dinosaurs were found hidden deep in the Congo or something. Very unlikely in practice, but not a violation of the theory. The theory says creatures cannot appear BEFORE their possible antecedents. It does not give any creature or class a theoretical required expiry date.

The reason we are skeptical that there have been any dinosaurs for 65 million years is practical, not theoretical. Not a single trace of any dino has been found since the KT boundary, and multiple dating methods put that at 65mya. By now, its unlikely to happen.

IN any case you are still ignoring the facts raised right from the start. ONE - Schweitzer has NOT found intact DNA, merely evidence that DNA was present. TWO - the 521 year half life is not a fixed phenomenon like the half life of Uranium 235. It was merely an estimate of half life for a sample preserved under similar conditions to a sample of Moa DNA found in NZ, as as we all know this could vary significantly depending on preservation conditions.

Why you fail to address these points but simply keep harping on your original claims is something only creationists can answer.

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