Should evolution be taught in high school?

Feb 24, 2008 | Posted by: Cash | Full story: www.scientificblogging.com

Microbiologist Carl Woese is well known as an iconoclast. At 79 years of age, Woese is still shaking things up. Most recently, he stated in an interview with Wired that...

"My feeling is that evolution shouldn't be taught at the lower grades. You don't teach quantum mechanics in the grade schools. One has to be quite educated to work with these concepts; what they pass on as evolution in high schools is nothing but repetitious tripe that teachers don't understand."

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defender

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#111016
Dec 5, 2012
 

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Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>BS! Dog kind. Cat kind. E.coli after 50,000 generations still 100% E.coli. The living fossil record. Wide genetic variation within the Created kind. Look at the range of everything from HIV virus (which is really not a complete living species) and the range of humans. Humans range from under 4 feet to over 7 feet and come in all shapes and sizes. Nothing has ever "macro-evolved" into some different kind.
True...

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#111017
Dec 5, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
The Nazi scientists embraced Darwinism as promoted in Germany and applied those racist principles. There is no other explanation.
Nobody had heard of selective breeding until Darwin! Those Spartans (also admired by Hitler), that is just propaganda made up by the notorious Darwinists Herodotus and Thucydides!

All those farmers breeding Clydesdales and Jersey Cows, never heard of selective breeding!
The US Holocaust Museum tell this story of scientists measuring racial features and those with deficiencies,
Yes. Farmers have been doing the same thing for millennia. Noooo it all Darwin's fault!
This was all mixed up with religious hatred of the Jews and Christians and whether you were ugly or disabled or sick or anything significantly deviating from the pure race.
Hatred of the Christians? No buddy, this time it was YOUR lot doing the persecution. God is With Us, on the belt buckles of the murderous Gestapo. If anything, Christians used perverted versions of Darwinism to justify the Final Solution to their centuries of irrational hatred towards the Jews!

Perhaps you might be getting a glimmer of how stupid this argument is, whichever way you look at it. Hitler used whatever was to hand in a maniacal fashion. Christianity, race theories, Germanic folklore.

Get real.

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#111018
Dec 5, 2012
 

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Urban Cowboy wrote:
I think there may be a misunderstanding regarding my position on social darwinism and the holocaust. The German scientist did measure prisoners "fitness" with their laboratory instruments and sterilize and kill them by the millions; however, this was pseudoscience. It was social darwinism, or racism masquarading as science.
Just consider this when you are so quick to criticize me for judging other "Christians" who reject the word of God. Christians who reject Jesus Christ and His Word are about as legitimate as the German "scientist" in lab coats at Auschwitz.
Now you accept that trying to present a perversion of darwinism as an argument against darwinism is no more valid than others presenting perversions of christianity as arguments against "the real thing"? Good, there's a start.

Hitler's experiment was not social darwinism either! The latter just says - capitalism should be left unhindered by social welfare because the weak should be left to die if they cannot foot it by their own efforts. That has a familiar ring to it....aren't you a staunch republican BTW?
defender

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#111019
Dec 5, 2012
 

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Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>If you go back far enough in the fossil record, there are no dogs and no cats. Just a creature that has cat like and dog like characteristics, called a Miacid.

Remember:

1. divergence from modern forms as we go back in time.
2. convergence with closely related forms as we go back in time.

"The superfamily Miacoidea can be divided into two families: the Miacidae and the Viverravidae. The Miacidae evolved into the caniforms (dogs, bear-dogs, bears, raccoons and weasels), while the Viverravidae evolved into the feliforms (cats, hyaenas and mongooses)."

http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action...

Question Mr Creationist:

1. Why are there no cats and dogs (or bears, hyenas, raccoons, mongooses) in strata dated at more than 30 million years? Even ignoring our dating, why none in the lower strata?

2. Why ARE there creatures that conform to evolution's view of what a common ancestor to this large group would look like? Where did it go?

3. Why does even this critter, the miacid, show links to even earlier placental mammals etc. Where did they go?

4. Why don't we see any dogs before miacids in the strata?

Too funny.
1) Yet they find a 47 million year old cat, study it in secret for two years name it Ida then try to pass it off as the great missing link....

2) How do you know the Miacidae didn't die out altogether and modern day cats and dogs didn't evolve from slugs or ancient crawfish?... Why not? In this goofy theory anything goes...

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#111020
Dec 5, 2012
 
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Now you accept that trying to present a perversion of darwinism as an argument against darwinism is no more valid than others presenting perversions of christianity as arguments against "the real thing"? Good, there's a start.
Hitler's experiment was not social darwinism either! The latter just says - capitalism should be left unhindered by social welfare because the weak should be left to die if they cannot foot it by their own efforts. That has a familiar ring to it....aren't you a staunch republican BTW?
Social Darwinism's worst manifestations were artificial selection (sterilization and extermination) of human beings as happened at Auschwitz. You can see this presented in the Smithsonian Holocaust Museum.

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#111021
Dec 5, 2012
 
Psychology wrote:
<quoted text>
How true that is.
At least wiki is based on evidence. Unlike what you say, which is based solely upon your own baseless assertions and psychological malfunctions.

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#111022
Dec 5, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Social Darwinism's worst manifestations were artificial selection (sterilization and extermination) of human beings as happened at Auschwitz. You can see this presented in the Smithsonian Holocaust Museum.
But, Darwin had nothing to do with any of that, and Darwin's theory had nothing to do with that. It's a perversion of a term coined by Darwin that was used as a pseudonym for a program of torture and murder. By the way, remind us all what religion Hitler was, and whether the writings of Martin Luther in any way influenced German anti-semitism.

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#111023
Dec 5, 2012
 
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
1) Yet they find a 47 million year old cat, study it in secret for two years name it Ida then try to pass it off as the great missing link....
2) How do you know the Miacidae didn't die out altogether and modern day cats and dogs didn't evolve from slugs or ancient crawfish?... Why not? In this goofy theory anything goes...
Cats are primates? Fascinating. Tell us more of this "science."

Also, DNA and ERVs are a major way of determining lineage. Unless you're saying DNA paternity tests don't work...

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#111024
Dec 5, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
We've been over this several times. The chick and the egg are still alive because and due to the information in the DNA which is deteriorating slowly due to mutations. THis is the same argument about growth and development and is bogus. Wise up already.
Yes, genetic entropy IS bogus. It's about time you admitted it.

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#111025
Dec 5, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Maybe there is some and it's ignored?
Ah, right...the global conspiracy theory. That's probably it.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
2. Those animals don't normally live on the ocean floor.
But, we should find them all in the same stratum, because they're all of similar mobility.
Urban Cowboy wrote:
3. If a flood were coming, they would head for higher ground.
But, we don't find evidence that supports this. And, the flood STILL doesn't explain shells INSIDE mountaintops (not ON mountaintops...do you understand the difference between inside and on?).
Urban Cowboy wrote:
4. I wouldn't expect them to be found with trilobites.
Let me get this straight: you'd expect the more mobile animals to go to higher ground, but you wouldn't expect to find them in the same stratum as mollusks, which we find buried inside mountaintops. Mountains ARE higher ground, which is where we should expect to find the most mobile animals (according to you), and which is exactly where we shouldn't expect to find mollusk fossils. Yet, we find mollusk fossils INSIDE mountaintops, and we don't find any of the more mobile animal fossils in (or on) mountaintops. How do you expect the exact opposite of what we find, and then declare yourself the victor? Please, explain.

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#111026
Dec 5, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
The Nazi scientists embraced Darwinism as promoted in Germany and applied those racist principles. There is no other explanation. The US Holocaust Museum tell this story of scientists measuring racial features and those with deficiencies, i.e, anything that deviated from German purity to sterilize and murder because of Darwinism and natural selection and survival of the fittest. This was all mixed up with religious hatred of the Jews and Christians and whether you were ugly or disabled or sick or anything significantly deviating from the pure race. Sterilized and murdered. It is a fact Mr. Holocaust denier-wackjob.
Why burn Darwin's books when they were the alleged centerpiece of the Nazi strategy? If anything, you'd think they'd want it spread further! Sorry, but your story doesn't make any sense. You don't hide the information you're using to justify your actions (unless it actually undermines them, such as by claiming that we're all equally human, which contradicted the "Jews aren't fully human" claims made by the Nazi party). Now, do you have something sensible to say, or are you going to continue your lies? As though we don't already know the answer...

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#111027
Dec 5, 2012
 
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
Umm no it's a claim evolutionist have never proven... Ever...
Oh, so there IS a hard border to evolution. Great. Just demonstrate this, and claim your Nobel Prize.

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#111028
Dec 5, 2012
 
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
You try sooo hard to be funny... But only end up as pathetic ....
Hey, I'm not the one talking about evolution of spices.

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#111029
Dec 5, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
BS! Dog kind. Cat kind. E.coli after 50,000 generations still 100% E.coli. The living fossil record. Wide genetic variation within the Created kind. Look at the range of everything from HIV virus (which is really not a complete living species) and the range of humans. Humans range from under 4 feet to over 7 feet and come in all shapes and sizes. Nothing has ever "macro-evolved" into some different kind.
What "kind" is a panda? What about a lemur? Sea urchin? Porcupine? Mudskipper? Archaeopteryx? Ostrich? Hummingbird? Megatherium?

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#111030
Dec 5, 2012
 
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
1) Yet they find a 47 million year old cat, study it in secret for two years name it Ida then try to pass it off as the great missing link....
2) How do you know the Miacidae didn't die out altogether and modern day cats and dogs didn't evolve from slugs or ancient crawfish?... Why not? In this goofy theory anything goes...
No cat had characteristics anything like Ida. On the other hand, primates do.

Nope, cats evolving from crawfish would violate the nested hierarchy. What "goes" in evolution is tightly constrained by the nested hierarchy. Unlike the unconstrained imaginations of creation fantasists.

You are talking pure Shyt. Enough said.

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#111031
Dec 5, 2012
 
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
Inside the spices yes but not transitional to completely different ones...
It's microevolution all the way. Homo Erectus is an ancestor of Homo Sapiens. Sapiens is the same genre as Erectus, but new species. There's no need to even use the term "macro" because evolution does not take giant steps from one generation to the next. It's all micro, with mutations plus genetic drift.

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#111032
Dec 5, 2012
 
Chimney1 wrote:
<quoted text>
No cat had characteristics anything like Ida. On the other hand, primates do.
Nope, cats evolving from crawfish would violate the nested hierarchy. What "goes" in evolution is tightly constrained by the nested hierarchy. Unlike the unconstrained imaginations of creation fantasists.
You are talking pure Shyt. Enough said.
Did you know a lion can mate with tiger or cheetah or a cougar or a puma or a panther? Ligors and tions, etc. Similarly, wolves can mate with coyotes or beagles or german shepherds.

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#111033
Dec 5, 2012
 
Psychology wrote:
Florida keys coral reefs becoming dead zone, just like the mississippi river delta and beyond. The news claims the coral death is from carbon dioxide. I say it's all the fertilizer from all the farming and sugar cane plantations runoff.

Rational for your belief?
Tyler Across the Galaxy

Elkton, MD

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#111034
Dec 5, 2012
 
Urban Cowboy wrote:
<quoted text>
Did you know a lion can mate with tiger or cheetah or a cougar or a puma or a panther? Ligors and tions, etc. Similarly, wolves can mate with coyotes or beagles or german shepherds.
Did you know that fertile offspring between all of these are vanishingly rare?

Were you aware that no cross-species hybrid, ever, in the history of the world, has been observed to produce fertile offspring?

Did you know that ligers, mules, etc. don't even have taxonomic designations because their lineage is not capable of surviving more than a generation?

I'm rather curious what kind of point you're trying to make, because I can't seem to find any. I hope you weren't trying to tell us that the tree of life is totally unconstrained and free to mix and match critters as whimsy dictates, because you must surely see where the flaw in that is when such hybrids--the result of species that have diverged only recently--are incapable of contributing to the gene pool.

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#111035
Dec 5, 2012
 
defender wrote:
<quoted text>
1) Yet they find a 47 million year old cat, study it in secret for two years name it Ida then try to pass it off as the great missing link....
2) How do you know the Miacidae didn't die out altogether and modern day cats and dogs didn't evolve from slugs or ancient crawfish?... Why not? In this goofy theory anything goes...
(1) The "missing link" is an idea that has been out of date for a very long time. Only creationists hang on to the term. Why do you do this?

(2) There's no reason to propose a different ancestory for the Miacidae. If modern cats and dogs had some characteristics associated with slugs or ancient crawfish, then it would be reasonable to make that connection, but of course that connection cannot be made. You have to follow the evidence.

The ToE recognizes that successful adaptations tend to be conserved and are passed on to future generations, and are modified in one form or another across species and genre. So that is why we can see common ancestry from fish to humans in parts of the structure.(vertabrate, and bones of the arm--one bone in the upper arm, followed by two bones, followed by five bones.)

In previous branches we can identify what DID happen, but in future branches you might have a point in saying that "anything goes" because there's no way to determine what modifications will follow, other than that those modifications will be built upon previous modifications.

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