Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 201651 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

tom

Owatonna, MN

#12652 Dec 21, 2011
Evolution has atleast some tnagible ways of proof.....Creationism has only a 200 year old book of myth that has been re-written many many times.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#12653 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
Considering that humans since their beginning have always created or found shelter, the likelihood is greater that their remains would indeed be discovered.
Not really, given the kinds of shelter that existed before humans created permanent structures. If the bodies aren't buried, then they are eventually exposed to the elements, and decompose even faster or the bones are scattered by animals. Bones themselves decay when exposed to the acids found in soils.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#12654 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
We don't have videos and photos of the black death, yet we believe all those accounts of it having happened.
Because we have numerous *independent* chroniclers of the events.

Level 2

Since: Dec 11

Farmingdale, NY

#12655 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
We don't have videos and photos of the black death, yet we believe all those accounts of it having happened.
But we DO have the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE (the organism that causes the disease). We also have scientific knowledge of how disease works, the course (where it started, where it went next, etc.) is consistent with shipping patterns of the time, the reasons for everything that happened make sense in light of current knowledge, etc.

Most of what's in the Bible DOESN'T make sense, contradicts known facts, etc.

Besides, the claim of the Black Death is just an ordinary claim of an epidemic (and we've seen far too many of them to think that epidemics don't occur), it's not a claim of supernatural magic. As Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and there aren't even ordinary proofs for the Biblical claims.

So the objective evidence that your god objectively exists, and that he, and he alone, not some other god, created everything?

That you can't imagine how the universe can exist unless your particular god created it isn't evidence of anything. That you believe isn't evidence of anything. That ... well, everything that every other creationist has EVER presented as objective evidence that God objectively exists isn't actually evidence of anything. If anyone had ever presented such evidence, I would be a Christian, and so would every other at least semi-intelligent human being on the planet. After all, how many even semi-intelligent people jump off cliffs because they don't believe in gravity?

So post the objective evidence that you have. Even just some of it.
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#12656 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
Sheltered form the elements.
Being in a house isn't going to make your bones more likely to turn into fossils.

And why would primitive people keep rotting corpses in their shelters?

Level 2

Since: Dec 11

Farmingdale, NY

#12657 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
Only 96% match from humans ad apes. That's not close enough for me to acknowledge that we evolved from apes.
Lucky for us that reality doesn't hinge on your accepting it, then.

Fifty six years ago, a large group of people, due to their religion, believed something. It was counter to reality. They no longer exist. Why?

They were the Mau Mau. They believed that their god would protect them from the white man's bullets.(They believed it as strongly as you believe that Jesus died for your sins. It wasn't something you could talk them out of, even if you shot a few to death in front of the others.) They fought the British with spears. They died.

Gods can't change reality - because they don't exist. Not theirs, not yours, not any. So "God created" is just religious nonsense, as worthy of belief by sane people as "we can't be killed by bullets". And it works just as well.(The very fact that you consider all other religions foolish should show you that yours is too. Mankind is 6 million years old - that we know of. Your religion is a few thousand. Relatively speaking, it hasn't been around long enough to matter.)

Level 2

Since: Dec 11

Farmingdale, NY

#12658 Dec 21, 2011
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
Being in a house isn't going to make your bones more likely to turn into fossils.
It's less likely.(Especially when "house", for most of human history, meant dank cave full of microorganisms.)

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#12659 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
Only 96% match from humans ad apes. That's not close enough for me to acknowledge that we evolved from apes.
How close would it need to be? And what method would you use to measure?

Level 2

Since: Dec 11

Farmingdale, NY

#12660 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
Things we "know" have been learned. What about that that has yet to be learned?
When we learn that something isn't, nothing we learn is going to make it be. There is no missing link, there are billions of links. Each generation is a link between the one before it and the one after it. We're not going to "learn" that there IS a missing link.(If you want to understand why, take some college courses.)
Science has proven that a rainbow is created when light passes through raindrops to create a prism. That has not dis-proven that God mastered the rainbow.
But is HAS been disproved that rainbows are created when Leprechauns create them.(Unless Leprechauns are really little triangular people made of glass.)
What also hasn't been proved is that your god actually exists.
Sorry to burst your "I refuse to be educated" bubble, but evolution happens, common descent happens, speciation happens.(We've observed them all.) God? No one has ever observed any god.

“I Am No One To Be Trifled With”

Level 7

Since: Jun 09

Dread Pirate Roberts

#12661 Dec 21, 2011
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
Because we have numerous *independent* chroniclers of the events.
Do we have independent chronicler of evolution and when it started?

No fair saying that the dinosaurs wrote it down...
Level 4

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#12662 Dec 21, 2011
Knightmare wrote:
<quoted text>
Do we have independent chronicler of evolution and when it started?
No fair saying that the dinosaurs wrote it down...
No, we have fossil and genetic evidence.

Level 2

Since: Dec 11

Farmingdale, NY

#12663 Dec 21, 2011
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
CBOW wrote:
Only 96% match from humans ad apes. That's not close enough for me to acknowledge that we evolved from apes.

How close would it need to be? And what method would you use to measure?
1) The match between man's DNA and the DNA of one particular species of ape is 100%. No matter how you measure it. A thing is PRECISELY the same as itself.

2) The match between man's DNA and CHIMPANZEE'S DNA, depending on what you measure (it's not as simple as comparing every "letter" in the chain) is greater than 98.5%.(It's not a matter of encoding for different proteins, it's a matter how those proteins are used. Two species with 100% the same proteins could be very different - but the DNA match would be almost 100%.)

Comparing "man's DNA and ape's DNA" is like comparing carrots to plants. Words without real meaning.

“I Am No One To Be Trifled With”

Level 7

Since: Jun 09

Dread Pirate Roberts

#12664 Dec 21, 2011
Rukbat wrote:
<quoted text>But we DO have the OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE (the organism that causes the disease). We also have scientific knowledge of how disease works, the course (where it started, where it went next, etc.) is consistent with shipping patterns of the time, the reasons for everything that happened make sense in light of current knowledge, etc.
Most of what's in the Bible DOESN'T make sense, contradicts known facts, etc.
Besides, the claim of the Black Death is just an ordinary claim of an epidemic (and we've seen far too many of them to think that epidemics don't occur), it's not a claim of supernatural magic. As Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, and there aren't even ordinary proofs for the Biblical claims.
So the objective evidence that your god objectively exists, and that he, and he alone, not some other god, created everything?
That you can't imagine how the universe can exist unless your particular god created it isn't evidence of anything. That you believe isn't evidence of anything. That ... well, everything that every other creationist has EVER presented as objective evidence that God objectively exists isn't actually evidence of anything. If anyone had ever presented such evidence, I would be a Christian, and so would every other at least semi-intelligent human being on the planet. After all, how many even semi-intelligent people jump off cliffs because they don't believe in gravity?
So post the objective evidence that you have. Even just some of it.
It isn't really about the objective evidence is it though? Because you just present your own opinion or opinions of others that try to debunk the Bible. Yet there is evidence but you and others are unwilling to accept that evidence. It is not about object evidence but rather about you will.

I am willing to accept certain objective aspects of science many of what has come down through the ages has even been because of scientists that had a Biblical view of things which...oh my goodness...actually did not hold them back but helped them make the discoveries they did.

Face it...you and others are so intent on trying to prove the Bible wrong you loose all objectivity yourselves.

And you wonder why people don't listen to your side?

“I Am No One To Be Trifled With”

Level 7

Since: Jun 09

Dread Pirate Roberts

#12665 Dec 21, 2011
The_Box wrote:
<quoted text>
No, we have fossil and genetic evidence.
Not really the same is it?

Science, REAL science takes actual observation.

By the way, all that tells us, is that those animals existed and croaked.

Heck we can't even pull a Jurassic Park...

Level 2

Since: Dec 11

Farmingdale, NY

#12666 Dec 21, 2011
Knightmare wrote:
<quoted text>
Do we have independent chronicler of evolution and when it started?
Translation: "Do we have the words of some man who wrote something that may be fact or fiction?" Yes to the first (evolution) and no to the second (when it started), but why would it matter? If the only thing that matters to you, when discerning fact from fiction, is what someone wrote, there's nothing to discuss. You don't understand the situation well enough for your opinion to be of any worth.

BTW, biological evolution "started" when biology did, and the first living thing didn't write anything down.
No fair saying that the dinosaurs wrote it down...
Now, do we have an independent chronicler of God creating the universe? No fair saying that God wrote it down...(And nothing any human being wrote, after the fact, is an independent chronicle.)

Seems that your entire argument is, at best, incompetent.

“I Am No One To Be Trifled With”

Level 7

Since: Jun 09

Dread Pirate Roberts

#12667 Dec 21, 2011
Rukbat wrote:
<quoted text>
1) The match between man's DNA and the DNA of one particular species of ape is 100%. No matter how you measure it. A thing is PRECISELY the same as itself.
2) The match between man's DNA and CHIMPANZEE'S DNA, depending on what you measure (it's not as simple as comparing every "letter" in the chain) is greater than 98.5%.(It's not a matter of encoding for different proteins, it's a matter how those proteins are used. Two species with 100% the same proteins could be very different - but the DNA match would be almost 100%.)
Comparing "man's DNA and ape's DNA" is like comparing carrots to plants. Words without real meaning.
Hmmm...lets see if I get your logic. If a knife is made out of the same material as say a kevlar vest...this would equate to being that the knife and kevlar vest are the same exact species?

Dude...you really thinking this through or just making it up as you go along.

“What, me worry?”

Since: Mar 09

I'm a racist caricature!

#12668 Dec 21, 2011
CBOW wrote:
<quoted text>
That's one way to rationalize your way out of the missing link not being found, I suppose. Considering that humans since their beginning have always created or found shelter, the likelihood is greater that their remains would indeed be discovered. Intelligent design and evolution are forever intertwined because they are both true, but us evolving from apes is nonsense. God created man and maid before he created Adam. Genesis.
And we know God exists because...?

Oh, right. Because an old book of stories passed down by illiterate Bronze Age goatherders says so. I don't see how that could possibly fail.

“I Am No One To Be Trifled With”

Level 7

Since: Jun 09

Dread Pirate Roberts

#12669 Dec 21, 2011
Rukbat wrote:
<quoted text>When we learn that something isn't, nothing we learn is going to make it be. There is no missing link, there are billions of links. Each generation is a link between the one before it and the one after it. We're not going to "learn" that there IS a missing link.(If you want to understand why, take some college courses.)<quoted text>But is HAS been disproved that rainbows are created when Leprechauns create them.(Unless Leprechauns are really little triangular people made of glass.)
What also hasn't been proved is that your god actually exists.
Sorry to burst your "I refuse to be educated" bubble, but evolution happens, common descent happens, speciation happens.(We've observed them all.) God? No one has ever observed any god.
May I point out that even IF you are remotely close by saying that there are billions of links {random chance can pull off some complicate stuff can't it...maybe if I through up a bunch of sand and had someone spray water it would turn out to be the best sand castle ever?}, these so-called links are not evolving to be better but rather devolving...except for those that man manipulates such as better chickens to eat and better cows to eat and better corn to eat {which incidently has really messed things up and actually shows just how arrogant science is}.

“I Am No One To Be Trifled With”

Level 7

Since: Jun 09

Dread Pirate Roberts

#12670 Dec 21, 2011
LowellGuy wrote:
<quoted text>
And we know God exists because...?
Oh, right. Because an old book of stories passed down by illiterate Bronze Age goatherders says so. I don't see how that could possibly fail.
That is only part of it...we know He exists because of His creation, because of Him working everyday in and through the lives of many people.

Level 2

Since: Dec 11

Farmingdale, NY

#12671 Dec 21, 2011
Knightmare wrote:
<quoted text>
It isn't really about the objective evidence is it though?
That's ALL it's about.
Because you just present your own opinion or opinions of others that try to debunk the Bible.
No need to. YOU make the existentially positive assertions, so YOU have to present objective evidence that your assertions are true. That's how reality works.
Yet there is evidence
Then post it. In 2,000 years, NO ONE has EVER presented ANY objective evidence that ANY god has EVER objectively esxisted. Be the first.
but you and others are unwilling to accept that evidence.
I will as soon as you post it. But it has to be evidence, not opinion, and it has to be objective.
It is not about object evidence but rather about you will.
Post objective evidence and we'll both find out.
I am willing to accept certain objective aspects of science many of what has come down through the ages has even been because of scientists that had a Biblical view of things which...oh my goodness...actually did not hold them back but helped them make the discoveries they did.[/quote]What you're willing to accept is anything that doesn't contradict your Bible, and that's not an objective viewpoint. Nor is it scientific to start with your conclusion (and yours is that your Bible is correct).
[QUOTE]Face it...you and others are so intent on trying to prove the Bible wrong
Not at all. It's your burden to prove it right, not mine to prove it wrong.(Claiming that evolution exists is just stating a fact - I don't care whether that's absolute proof that the entire Bible is trash or it has absolutely nothing to do with the Bible - it's still a fact.)
you loose all objectivity yourselves.
Demanding objective evidence is losing objectivity? Did you just hear a HUGE explosion? That was every irony meter in the universe self-destructing. Let's hope it didn't damage the very fabric of space-time.
And you wonder why people don't listen to your side?
No, since everyone whose opinion is worth anything accepts that evolution occurs, and most of them accept that the Bible is just another bunch of just-so stories.(As does the VAST majority of the human population of the planet. The majority is NOT Christian, and even many Christians treat the Bible as a lesson in morals not to be taken literally. Bible literalists are a TINY minority.)

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