Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 221214 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

TheHotdaylight

Los Angeles, CA

#121126 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry Mr. The Dude, cant click on links in topix, too many weirdos and their viruses.
I WILL VOUCH FR THE LINK. I have Salon.com saved to my favorites.
wondering

Morris, OK

#121127 Aug 28, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, you asked about the universe before, not the earth. You do realize they are quite different things, right? Also that the Earth is only about a third the age of the universe?
<quoted text>
Your phrase 'created itself' is meaningless. The Big Bang theory is a well-tested description of the expansion and changes in our universe from a very early time. We *know* that the laws of physics as we understand them break down if we go back to very small fractions of a second into this expansion. Because of that, any 'cause' for the universe isn't testable at this point. But there are several good possibilities (all untested):
1. Time starts at the same point as the universe, so the universe is uncaused.
2. There was a previous, contracting universe before ours along with a 'Big Bounce'. This is the prediction of Loop Quantum Gravity. That previous universe existed infinitely into the past and was hence uncaused.
3. There is a larger multiverse and our universe is a very small, four dimensional (three space, one time) part of this higher dimensional structure (11 dimensions seems to be correct for the math to work). This is the picture obtained in string theories. There are two main variants of this one:
3a. The universe is a result of a quantum fluctuation and is hence uncaused.
3b. The universe is the result of the collision of 'branes' in this multiverse.
It is also the case that time, as it exists in the multiverse may have little or nothing to do with time as it exists in our universe. The multiverse as a whole would be uncaused.
correct should have said universe not earth.

1) of course
2) we have already discussed this . you said you doubt it
3) we have already discussed multi-universe and again you said you doubt it.
wondering

Morris, OK

#121128 Aug 28, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
There is information whenever there is interaction of matter with itself. The way that atoms react to each other carries and *is* information. The fact that an oxygen atom will react differently to hydrogen than a carbon atom will *is* information.
In other words, information existed LONG before life came on the scene. The very molecules that make up the universe are filled with information. For example, a water molecule is information that water exists in the environment. Another molecule that reacts with water can carry information about the existence of that water by its reaction. That is how we can test for water in an environment.
The point is that information is inherent in causal reactions: any time two things interact and change each other, their new condition is information about that previous reaction.
before first life there was nothing but chemicals. are you suggesting chemicals gave life information?
messianic114

Calgary, Canada

#121129 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
it will be easy for the muslims to take the US over, at least they wont have any trouble with the athiests....the athiests don't have anything to defend, piece of cake....a handful of scimitar swirling muslims will lop off the heads of the athiests, heck the athiests will line up for their turn. Good thing most of the people living in the South are believers, it will take longer for the muslims to destroy us.
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Not if they outlaw guns.
.
I wouldn't count on the atheists to line up, I think they will fight or convert.
wondering

Morris, OK

#121130 Aug 28, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>I don't recall telling wondering my educational background a month or so ago. I do recall telling replaytime this in a post he made some months ago. Wondering wasn't even posting on this forum at the time. He made a post some time ago claiming he is some sort of engineer. I don't believe his claim.
yes you did. same as poly did, chimney did, JmBrazil did and others did. I do think JMBrazil is the one who said to me something like "wondering we have told you our education and credentials so it is your turn to tell us yours." i believe that was over 2 months ago.
wondering

Morris, OK

#121131 Aug 28, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
The Big Bang theory is a scientific theory that describes the expansion and changes of state of the universe. The fact of that expansion is well proved by evidence ranging from red-shift data to the background radiation. That the universe was once much hotter and denser than it is now is also established by the evidence. That is was hot and dense enough for nuclear reactions to happen *everywhere*, not just in the interiors of (not-yet existing) stars is also established by the evidence.
The 'standard' Big Bang theory does not address the 'cause' of the universe at all. In fact, the classical theory has time itself (and hence causality) beginning with the universe.
The problem is that we *know* the laws of physics as we currently understand them will fail in some way if we push to very small fractions of a second into the current expansion phase. At some point, effects from quantum gravity *must* become relevant and we simply do not have a tested theory of quantum gravity. We have a lot of conjectures about such a theory. Those conjectures say things relevant to the beginning of the universe, but they tend to say different things depending on which theory you use.
So, we know the Big Bang model is correct and valid in the sense that the universe is expanding from a much hotter and denser state. We know that this description is valid to within a millisecond of the start of that expansion. We simply do not know what happened before that. And it may well be meaningless to ask what happened before the universe because time likely is co-existent with the universe.
Now, you like to use the phrase 'caused itself'. That is contradictory and meaningless. Causes always precede effects. But it *is* possible, and even likely that the universe is 'uncaused': there simply is no cause for the universe as a whole. This would be the case if time started a finite distance into the past and the universe is co-existent with time.
you can say what you want. yes we know the universe is expanding but we really don't know what caused/created/started the universe. it could have been a singularity or it could have been 1millionth it current size. we don't know is the most honest answer anyone can give.

funny you keep saying uncaused. heating up/expanding would be a cause.
wondering

Morris, OK

#121132 Aug 28, 2014
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>That was explained, practically in baby-talk, in the video.
Apparently you didn't watch it.
That's disappointing - but not really surprising.
your are correct. I do not watch to many youtube videos.
wondering

Morris, OK

#121133 Aug 28, 2014
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
You can argue over the meaning of evolution if you want, bottom line for me is change is limited. We are not seeing the change required to account for the diversity or complexity of life on this planet in 5 billion years.
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We have been culturing bacteria in labs for over 150 years. In this time we have had approx 4 million generations of bacteria. We have not seen any change to something else which must happen for evolution to explain what we have now.(Complex multi-celled organisms) At some point we have to go from single celled to multi-celled, then celled dedicated to a certain function. If we have had no such change in 4 million generations, how long is needed for a chimp like animal to turn into a human at 15 years per generation? 60 million years? What about 24 years per generation as we see now in chimps? 96 million years? We are already back into the Mesozoic era. Are there any fossils of a chimp like ancestor to be found?
.
I believe G-d created all living things after their kind. Any minute changes that have happened is part of the original design's ability to adapt. But this is limited. A cat cannot change into a dog no matter how much it needs to adapt. This is called extinction.
same question;
"you don't believe there can be enough minute changes over time to account for the complexity required to add a new structure (like a wing from a limb)"
where do you think the "limb" itself came from? do you think the limb was always there or through changes it evolved to be a limb?

you say you believe god created all living things after their kind. what kind did he create them after if their kind did not exist until he created them?

Since: Oct 08

Alpharetta, GA

#121134 Aug 28, 2014
messianic114 wrote:
<quoted text>
.
Not if they outlaw guns.
.
I wouldn't count on the atheists to line up, I think they will fight or convert.
good call....since they are known to be almost muslim already, they will just agree to switch teams and praise be to allah.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#121135 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
athiests are scary people....who do they pray to at night before bedtime?
Gods are like monsters that live under your bed, which ones do you look for before you get in bed if you don't believe in monsters under your bed?

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#121136 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
Why take a chance?
You are taking a chance. What if you are praying to the wrong God? Quetzalcoatl is pretty nasty when he gets angry.

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#121137 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
it will be easy for the muslims to take the US over, at least they wont have any trouble with the athiests....the athiests don't have anything to defend, piece of cake....a handful of scimitar swirling muslims will lop off the heads of the athiests, heck the athiests will line up for their turn. Good thing most of the people living in the South are believers, it will take longer for the muslims to destroy us.
"Freedom from religion" is something significant to defend. I think you've grossly underestimated that fact.

Besides, why would whine about the fact that atheists exist if what you posit were true?

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#121138 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
good call....since they are known to be almost muslim already, they will just agree to switch teams and praise be to allah.
Atheists worship no God. You worship the same God the muslims do ... it would seem to me that you are almost muslim.

Since: Oct 08

Alpharetta, GA

#121139 Aug 28, 2014
Ooogah Boogah wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheists worship no God. You worship the same God the muslims do ... it would seem to me that you are almost muslim.
naw, I'm a bacon loving, pork rind loving, BBQ pig loving southern boy....show me a man that don't eat offa the pig, and I'll show you a liberal yankee or a muslim

“There is no Truth in Faith”

Level 5

Since: Dec 08

nowhere near a pound of $100's

#121140 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
naw, I'm a bacon loving, pork rind loving, BBQ pig loving southern boy....show me a man that don't eat offa the pig, and I'll show you a liberal yankee or a muslim
So then your religion has more to do with eating pigs than it does worshiping the God of Abraham.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#121141 Aug 28, 2014
wondering wrote:
<quoted text>
your are correct. I do not watch to many youtube videos.
One of the reasons I chose that video was that it was at such a simple level that even you might have understood it.

And you can get some fairly high level education from YouTube. MIT for example has lectures for whole semesters of classes.

“I am evolving as fast as I can”

Since: Jan 08

Brooklyn, in Dayton OH now

#121142 Aug 28, 2014
inbred Genius wrote:
<quoted text>
Why take a chance?
Let's see ... so what you are saying is that you should believe because it MIGHT be true. Why risk it.

Hmmm ... so if it is true, you are going to stand at the Pearly Gates and tell St Peter that you only believed on the chance one of the various religious nut-jobs might be right. Yea, that will get you in the gates (Not!)

While you are busy with that, Jesus and I will be sharing a few beers looking down on the Earth laughing at ... people like you! At least the people who actually believe have some level of integrity. They'll at least have a chance at making it through. You, not so much.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#121143 Aug 28, 2014
TedHOhio wrote:
<quoted text>Let's see ... we ask a question and you are either incapable or unwilling to answer it. You ask a strawman question, rather than falling into your transparent trap, we point out to you that your question is poorly worded and give you advice how to ask it in such a way that it will provide some meaningful information .... and we are the sniveling cowards? You do realize no one buys into that. Even the few people who once agreed with some of your comments are shying away from you. I think you are rapidly become a caricature.
Transparent trap? you put yourselves into the trap ,not me! Either the universe and life was created,.....or the universe created itself and then created life. This is not a strawman! it's the reality of your position!,and when faced with that reality, you play word games, you dodge, duck, and blame the questioner for having to avoid the answer.

...you lack the courage of your convictions

“Happiness comes through giving”

Level 7

Since: Feb 08

Location hidden

#121144 Aug 28, 2014
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
I may have screwed up the quote tags. It happens occasionally. My apologies.
Accepted.

Level 2

Since: Dec 08

Location hidden

#121145 Aug 28, 2014
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
No. No, nothing can 'create itself'.
<quoted text>
No. Nothing can 'create itself'.
<quoted text>
This is the closest to what happened, but even it isn't quite correct.
The universe is uncaused--it 'just happened'. Life was a product of the laws of physics ac ting inside the universe. the causal agent was not the universe itself, but life was caused by the chemical reactions leading to life.
<quoted text>
No.
Now i tis your turn:
Did your creator make itself and then make all life?
Did your creator create itself and then create all life?
Did your creator just happen, then life just happened?
Did some other creator create your creator and then your creator created all life?
No God did not make himself, yes he created all life
The creator exists outside the known universe, since whatever caused the universe existed before the universe was created. Follow that logic? God is the eternal first cause, he invented time so therefore is not bound by it.

Chemical reactions led to life? Believe what you want, science states , without exception that life only comes from existing life. So to believe that life sprang into existence is unscientific, it would be a miracle, based on the evidence ,Abiogenesis and the uncaused universe are theories that the evolutionists have to believe in ,because the alternative is unthinkable.

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