Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 223366 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#114742 Jun 19, 2014
Good job, Polymath.

Another smirking Jesus Freak without a real clue what he is talking about is soundly defeated in debate.

You wonder why Jesus couldn't send somebody with a BRAIN to debate for him, just once.

LOL

“It is what it is”

Level 5

Since: Mar 13

Location hidden

#114744 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
What is life?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#114745 Jun 19, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
What is life?

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#114746 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
And in the case where it doesn't: the standard by which you measure and justify the produced intelligence will be purely arbitrary.
So by YOUR line of reasoning:
YOU (Polymath) ARE ONLY INTELLIGENT BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU ARE; NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE IT BY WHAT YOU PRODUCE (including your posts) OR DEMONSTRATE.
Wrong yet again. Your 'reasoning' was that if I produce something intelligent (in other words, an entity that is intelligent), then I would have to be intelligent. That is an invalid argument. But, my ability to produce *ideas* that correspond with testable observations *is* evidence of my intelligence. The invalidity of one argument does not invalidate the other.
Me myself, I like to reason with those who are naturally intelligent, being the products of the intelligent potentials.
Huh? natural intelligence simply means that someone is able to quickly and easily pick up on ideas and use them to good effect.
If I continue to reason with you, I will appear to be a fool. NOT BECAUSE YOU HAVE MADE A FOOL OF ME.
But because only a fool would try to discuss matters with what you have argued yourself to be.
HONESTLY, I see no reason, nor logic in continuing to regard anything that comes from you.
Now if you could be so kind as to avoid me....
Your posts waste a lot of time.
*lights up a cigarette*
Nope, you won't get by that easily. You have made a number of faulty arguments and are clearly seeing that I can point out their flaws. That is the only reason you wish me to be silent: that I know enough to show that you are wrong.

A cigarette gives a wise man time to think and a fool something to put in his mouth. It seems you are taking advantage of the latter possibility.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#114747 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
You of course being our prime (and perhaps only) example.
Again with the insults. You can't argue the logic, so you attack the one who shows you wrong. Once again, non-intelligent systems can produce intelligence. Because of that, simply being able to produce intelligence is not sufficient to prove intelligence. Being able to produce intelligent *ideas* is, however, evidence of intelligence. Can you show that some aspect of the universe, say the earth, is able to produce intelligent ideas independently of their production by humans?
deutscher Stolz

Georgsmarienhütte, Germany

#114748 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>YOU (Polymath) ARE ONLY INTELLIGENT BECAUSE YOU SAY YOU ARE; NOT BECAUSE YOU ARE ABLE TO DEMONSTRATE IT BY WHAT YOU PRODUCE (including your posts) OR DEMONSTRATE.
Me myself, I like to reason with those who are naturally intelligent, being the products of the intelligent potentials.
He is one hundred times more intelligent than you.
deutscher Stolz

Georgsmarienhütte, Germany

#114749 Jun 19, 2014
Gillette wrote:
Good job, Polymath.
Another smirking Jesus Freak without a real clue what he is talking about is soundly defeated in debate.
You wonder why Jesus couldn't send somebody with a BRAIN to debate for him, just once.
LOL
Most Americans are Jesus Freaks.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#114750 Jun 19, 2014
deutscher Stolz wrote:
<quoted text>
Most Americans are Jesus Freaks.
Most Germans are loud, drunken Nazis.

Since: Nov 07

St. James, NY

#114751 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither.
My problem is with the attitudes of people when it comes to the concept of God.
You know what I find interesting?
The fact that they can readily say that there is no evidence for God or that the existence of God cant be proven etc... WHEN THEY ARE NOT EVEN ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE ATTRIBUTE OR CHARACTERISTIC OF GOD BY WHICH THEY INVALIDATE THE ABILITY TO PROVE OR FIND EVIDENCE.
HOW IN THE HELL CAN THEY DENY RATIONALLY WHEN THEY DONT EVEN KNOW THE PROPERTIES THEY ARE DENYING?
Well, first of all, the discussions hardly take place in a vacuum. There is an entire field of study and literature and philosophy and catechism all discussing and debating the nature and existence and characteristics of God (or Gods) long before scientists hit the scene. And even the people who are supposedly the experts on God can't pin it down to a simple definition, even in a philosophical context, let alone a scientific one. So that is hardly the scientists fault.

Secondly, it might help to think of it not as a criticism of God but rather an affirmation of the limits of science. Science is a specific tool with a specific job that it is very good at. But once you start introducing God into the mix, science gets wonky because that is not the job science was designed for. God is just too large and abstract a concept for science to handle. Think of it this way, do you really want God reduced to where he could fit in a test tube to be studied and analyzed like any other subject?

Third, despite your protestations to the contrary, we are not the ones who brought God into the discussion. We want to discuss Evolution. Here is the sequence of events as they unfolded:

1. Scientists discover or develop some insight into the universe (Evolution, Big Bang Theory, whatever).
2. People criticize the discovery or theory because they think it contradicts some aspect of their religious beliefs.
3. Debate ensues.
4. Debate broadens as more people get involved, eventually becoming a discussion about the overall religious beliefs and not about the science.
5. You come in claiming it was our intention from the beginning to use science as a means to attack or discredit God.

I don't know how much clearer we can make this. We would be perfectly happy having a discussion simply about Evolution without bringing God into it at all, freeing Him from any and all attacks, criticisms and critiques. If YOU want to keep bringing Him up, that is on you, not us.
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
Is it possible to get more mechanistic or naturalistic than evolution?
That is just it, Evolution is exactly as mechanistic and naturalistic as the rest of science, no more no less. ALL of science is mechanistic and naturalistic because that is the only way it works. Note that doesn't mean that science promotes the philosophy of naturalism, which is different.
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>Nevertheless, it is the equality (consistency) of any explanation that makes it logically valid and workable.
As such, whatever has consistency will do for me.
Then we're in luck, Evolution satisfies that criteria.

Since: Nov 07

St. James, NY

#114752 Jun 19, 2014
deutscher Stolz wrote:
<quoted text>
Most Americans are Jesus Freaks.
Holy crap, after all this time we finally got him from 'all' to 'most'. This is called progress, ladies and gentlemen.

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#114753 Jun 19, 2014
Discord wrote:
<quoted text>
Holy crap, after all this time we finally got him from 'all' to 'most'. This is called progress, ladies and gentlemen.
Well when you get him to reality he will realize why we were playing ....

deutscher Stolz

Georgsmarienhütte, Germany

#114754 Jun 19, 2014
Discord wrote:
<quoted text>
Holy crap, after all this time we finally got him from 'all' to 'most'. This is called progress, ladies and gentlemen.
I have never said that all Americans are Jesus Freaks. I have only said that almost every American is an idiot. All Jesus Freaks are idiots but not all idiots are Jesus Freaks. That's logic. Get it.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#114755 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
Who cares what his credentials are and are not?!!
It is equality (consistency) which justifies and validates EVERYTHING that you think, assume, suggest, observe, test, measure, KNOW, think, dream, scheme; you name it.
It does matter where he attended nor what he studied nor how much.
What matters is the equality (consistency) in what he says and believes.
So when an individual allows other men to impose inequalities in his thought processes in the name of "education", without critically thinking about the implications of what is being taught; he/she willfully exposes themselves to intellectual disgrace.
Fair enough.

Except he is quite consistent. You are not.(shrug)
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#114756 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah!
So my advice to you is to keep your trap shut when I am spewing my philosophical shit!
<quoted text>
What is God?
And dont give us YOUR definition now.
Give me my definition of God, for example.
<quoted text>
Which "God"?
You tell us. It's YOUR claim. You back it up. You claim to know all about this allegedly consistent God concept yet NO-ONE around here knows what the heck it is because you won't tell us.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#114757 Jun 19, 2014
replaytime wrote:
<quoted text>
I think that is a fair statement. Even science relies on repetitive and variety. They have repetitive tests and get a variety of answers.
Okay, just gotta point out the irony here of you calling me stupid while simultaneously falling for Mikey's SCPID schtick. Wow.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#114758 Jun 19, 2014
DanFromSmithville wrote:
<quoted text>Did you run out of cigarettes?
Well now I have seen you deny that you deny science and now I see you deny science again. What will your story be tomorrow?
Might I recommend checking to see if anyone in the alley you preach from has a loosie.
From the looks of things I'd say he's got an eternal supply of cigarettes...

“Merry Christmas”

Level 9

Since: Jan 11

Happy New Year

#114759 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
It doesnt matter.
Since intelligence can from the un-intelligent; you are a dumb horse, regardless of how appropriate your response is.
So shove it... up your nose and blow it out you a$$.
Don't post angry, pigeon.

Yawl have a good day now, ya hear.
The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#114760 Jun 19, 2014
FREE SERVANT wrote:
<quoted text>The scriptures indicate that God shows PATTERN'S when things are to be made or built and Solomon taught that life and all things follow his CIRCUIT'S. This simple claim itself is proof the God of the Bible is THE Creator.
Yup, that's circuitous reasoning fo sho, Mikey. Hog would certainly appreciate it.

“ad victoriam”

Level 8

Since: Dec 10

arte et marte

#114761 Jun 19, 2014
deutscher Stolz wrote:
<quoted text>
I have never said that all Americans are Jesus Freaks. I have only said that almost every American is an idiot. All Jesus Freaks are idiots but not all idiots are Jesus Freaks. That's logic. Get it.
I get Berlin and the Russians get you.

The Dude

Wallasey, UK

#114762 Jun 19, 2014
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither.
My problem is with the attitudes of people when it comes to the concept of God.
You know what I find interesting?
The fact that they can readily say that there is no evidence for God or that the existence of God cant be proven etc... WHEN THEY ARE NOT EVEN ABLE TO IDENTIFY THE ATTRIBUTE OR CHARACTERISTIC OF GOD BY WHICH THEY INVALIDATE THE ABILITY TO PROVE OR FIND EVIDENCE.
HOW IN THE HELL CAN THEY DENY RATIONALLY WHEN THEY DONT EVEN KNOW THE PROPERTIES THEY ARE DENYING?
Simple.

By pointing out that you haven't provided what is necessary to demonstrate your claims yet.(shrug)
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
Personally, the "God's eye view" works for me, so it will always be the main method I use to describe the world.
Perhaps far more so than you realise.

Fundies quite often proclaim, as if they are the Creator God Himself. In fact it's EXCEEDINGLY rare to see them speak otherwise.
HOG_ the Hand of God wrote:
It offers me a stable foundation on which to build knowledge and investigate the world.
No, it really doesn't.

For thou art human. Not God.

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