Evolution vs. Creation

Full story: Best of New Orleans

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

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The Dude

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#106231
Nov 19, 2013
 

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Chimney1 wrote:
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And once again we have a diagram of a "typical" prokaryote with a flagellum but no claim that the ealriest prokaryotes had them.
But no doubt you will repeat your lie every few weeks.
Oh, every other day, minimum.

I'm thinking of praying to God to magically poof us some new fundies.

“Think&Care”

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#106232
Nov 19, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
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But what if God did it so knowing someday He would need to trip up evo with that sequence. Back to the phylogenetic tree now, who was there to see all this?
"And God was pleased with what he saw. 22 He blessed them all and told the creatures that live in the water to reproduce and to fill the sea, and he told the birds to increase in number".
We know the above is true in the present, but mock the statement that no one witnessed from the past? Evo's are everywhere at once.
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).

And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?

SBT
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#106233
Nov 19, 2013
 

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Subduction Zone wrote:
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We can see when different creatures evolved in the fossil record.
And what is nice about the fossil record is that anyone can check it out for himself. That is one thing that creatards will not do. They know too well that they will lose in doing so.
SBT, why don't you try to learn how evolution works from a reliable source? It can't hurt to try to learn what the other side really says. It should be obvious to even you that your sources give a very distorted view of evolution.
I dont see evolution in the fossil record. The fossil record shows one thing truly; in each specific deposit world-wide, huge and varied groups of unrelated animals, aquatic and land, were drowned together in sediments. That is what we actually see and hold in our hands with no exception.

Evo paleontologists pick one bone from here, one from there and line them up in evolutionary fashion holding out evo as the only "scientific" interpretation. Never mention the above. Findings are sorted with a viewpoint in mind and leave out the broader truth. Thats what makes it into the kids science texts.

Take the Karoo, we have vertical fossil exposures thousands of feet thick, do we see evo as we move from bottom to top - No. We go to the Grand Canyon, working up the grand staircase, we see huge evo sections (Ordovician, Silurian), missing. Do we see evolution - no. Do we see sea floor life at the bottom of the GS yes in order of mobility, NOT evolutionary common ancestry sequence. One viewpoint vs another. One says many kinds buried catastrophically, another says each layer represents an eon of evolved life. The creation viewpoint is supported with eyewitnesses. Evo requires important things to be provable. Creation requires reasonable evidence also.

We have DNA and the cell operation squarely on our side. How did the complex and stasis in DNA coding come in the very beginning? We see this from Prokaryote fwd as it has never changed nor evolved. With that outside system controlling all life and the worlds oldest book saying what it says as a witness, is this not reasonable? How can man invalidate this position? How can we standback and allow children not to know these truths?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#106234
Nov 19, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).
And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?
Isn't it obvious?
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#106235
Nov 19, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
I dont see evolution in the fossil record.
This is irrelevant, since you're not even looking at the fossil record in the first place.
SBT wrote:
The fossil record shows one thing truly; in each specific deposit world-wide, huge and varied groups of unrelated animals, aquatic and land, were drowned together in sediments.
And you determined cause of death by looking in the Bible and ignoring evidence? Why aren't modern male leatherback turtles at the bottom of the column? Why aren't velociraptors, who were faster than humans, and trees, at the top? How come your "floating-sorting theory" doesn't account for aquatic basins? How does flood physics prevent everything from quite literally, frying to death and leaving the Earth a charred ball?
SBT wrote:
We have DNA and the cell operation squarely on our side.
How does it demonstrate magic Jewish wizardry?
SBT wrote:
How did the complex and stasis in DNA coding come in the very beginning?
The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.

Did I mention that already?
SBT wrote:
We see this from Prokaryote fwd as it has never changed nor evolved.
Bubonic plague.
SBT wrote:
With that outside system controlling all life and the worlds oldest book saying what it says as a witness, is this not reasonable? How can man invalidate this position? How can we standback and allow children not to know these truths?
Quite simply because this outside system cannot be demonstrated in an objective manner via the scientific method. When do you plan on getting around to this?

You've had THOUSANDS of years.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

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#106236
Nov 19, 2013
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, every other day, minimum.
I'm thinking of praying to God to magically poof us some new fundies.
God does not "poof up" fundies,
Fundies "poof up" God.

You stand corrected.

SBT
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Since: Jun 13

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#106237
Nov 19, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).
And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?
The created world, life and universe is the proof. If we are taught Godless evo in our formative years and told over and over all is from naturalistic means, that's what we will believe, right? In my last post I covered this ground. As the telescopes and microscopes get bigger, naturalism fails us. Proton powered micro motor's with a clutch, speed control and reverse, a cavitation torque sensor in each "stator" (researcher definition, not mine) and control mechanism don't come about by chance in the reality we live in.
http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/a-questio...

An outside super-intelligence has a hand in it. So then your question's about the Bible. 99.9% is written by man (exception is the 10 commandments for example), a very, very tiny faction has error's. If it was all aligned perfectly someone would scream tampering, right? On the other hand when pressed hard it holds up very, very well, no one doubts that. Christ quotes it over and over. So the big challenge I had, is it true? People get into this or that miracle and put it down but have you had miracles in your life? I have. A few happened i just took for granted in my youthful bliss! Later I thought of those. We all have our foxhole experiences, one time I asked for help, was in a real jam and was about to kill people and me. I got an answer i will tell you. Later read the bible and after another near miss I believed and was changed. Started going back on the evo stuff and got satisfaction that the bible had it right. Some interesting stuff about our planet and solar systems -

http://www.genesisalive.com/2013/09/genesis-a...

My girls had horses, like a good dad i helped out. One time I was working a stall talking with someone. That horse in there with me started jawing silent words the best he could to join in, we were rolling and he was so frustrated.

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

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#106238
Nov 19, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
OK, so you are attempting to explain the origin of life by postulating a supernatural realm, that is unsupported by evidence, inhabited by an all-powerful being, which is unsupported by evidence, that uses a power, unsupported by evidence, to poof life into existence. You provide no understanding of the physics of this postulated realm, no understanding of how that realm interacts with the natural world, and the only documentation is a book written over 2000 years ago with multiple authors with different agendas that have changed the original text multiples times (as documented in the text itself).
And how, exactly, does that constitute an explanation?
Yeah. What he said.

“Leave That Thing Alone!”

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#106239
Nov 19, 2013
 
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
But what if God ...
You are "what iffing" about something (god) that is itself nothing more than a "what if".

When you can present actual verifiable evidence that your 'god' does in fact exist, your "what ifs" would at least have some modicum of credibility... and that whole "you just need faith" thing would become unnecessary.

Good luck with that

SBT
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#106240
Nov 19, 2013
 

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The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
This is irrelevant, since you're not even looking at the fossil record in the first place.
<quoted text>
And you determined cause of death by looking in the Bible and ignoring evidence? Why aren't modern male leatherback turtles at the bottom of the column? Why aren't velociraptors, who were faster than humans, and trees, at the top? How come your "floating-sorting theory" doesn't account for aquatic basins? How does flood physics prevent everything from quite literally, frying to death and leaving the Earth a charred ball?
<quoted text>
How does it demonstrate magic Jewish wizardry?
<quoted text>
The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis. The theory of evolution does not rely on abiogenesis.
Did I mention that already?
<quoted text>
Bubonic plague.
<quoted text>
Quite simply because this outside system cannot be demonstrated in an objective manner via the scientific method. When do you plan on getting around to this?
You've had THOUSANDS of years.
Many of the basis were above sea level, this is not a local catastrophe. Put about 30 years more geology under your belt.

Turtles dive to shallow water and can surface, they are found fossilized on-shore and in-shore, they would no be thousands of feet deep as the first to get covered. Fact as floaters they can be last.

Reptile's drown and immediately sink, doubt the big guys were good swimmers. The Morrison is a turbitity that covers thousands of square miles here and is full of them, mixed with clams and shells in a high-speed underwater mud flow. Recently found buried in soft body and still smelly, you will recall.

Oh and your theory does too rely on where the code and cell operation came from, nice try. My point is, the DNA code and cell mechanism has never been seen to evolve, it remains an untouched outside system controlling all life for your 3.6 bill years. why hasn't it changed if mindless evolution is so creative in all that time? This is a mechanism that utterly falsifies Darwinian evolution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

The earth fried? I have no idea what you have been reading. We are here, our ancestors made it through the judgement, Dr. Brown here is really onto something -

http://www.youtube.com/watch...

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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#106241
Nov 19, 2013
 

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ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Můr, put me in mind of the Welsh for carrot, a word I have often used to refer to chuckles. Itís perhaps the only word I know in welsh.
Itís not so bad now but up to a few years ago there was a problem when driving in Wales. The road signs are written in both English and Welsh. Welsh language activists would go around and spray paint the English directions out resulting in lots of lost tourists.
Talking about road signs, I think you may like this one http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/21/art...
Reminds me of "This page left intentionally blank."

“Pissing people off since 1949”

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#106242
Nov 19, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Kenyon was really popular with the materialists but fell out of sorts fast when he used his brain, was a good example of being "expelled" for documenting his conclusions against the dogma. Then they screamed "Fire" and all ran to Gould for help. Gould then postulated "punctuated equilibrium" (wow, very scholarly and intelligent term to "believe" in) which meant due to the embarrassing absence of intermediates the world was looking for, he asserted that evolution must have occurred quickly somewhere minimizing the need to find any fossils to support evo., wow, that was close, issue fixed - "next"..lets have a go a whales.."next"..
Sorry, no. Gould may have popularized the idea of punctuated equilibrium but it was far from a new idea.

"The periods during which species have undergone modification, though long as measured in years, have probably been short in comparison with the periods during which they retain the same form." - Charles Darwin, On the Origin of Species, 4th edition, 1866

Nor did Gould postulate there were no periods of relative stasis.

“My DNA tastes like chicken”

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#106243
Nov 19, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Kenyon was really popular with the materialists but fell out of sorts fast when he used his brain, was a good example of being "expelled" for documenting his conclusions against the dogma. Then they screamed "Fire" and all ran to Gould for help. Gould then postulated "punctuated equilibrium" (wow, very scholarly and intelligent term to "believe" in) which meant due to the embarrassing absence of intermediates the world was looking for, he asserted that evolution must have occurred quickly somewhere minimizing the need to find any fossils to support evo., wow, that was close, issue fixed - "next"..lets have a go a whales.."next"..
So here are your links -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prokaryote
http://faculty.ccbcmd.edu/courses/bio141/lecg...
Notice in the wiki link that the number #1, not #2, but #1 structure in the table is a flagella. Also listed is the 3.6 BY. age.
So they find evidence a one of the most durable life forms on earth on metamorphic rock dated by isotope means, not any other uniform method like HE, PO 214, diamond carbon and so on. Then they pick the vary oldest of the 4 major isotope methods that have been proven over and over to conflict by up to 50% and "date" the Prokaryote. Talk about cherry picking. All we heard about in school was the isotopes. Throw your bible away over them, what a joke.
Better get someone from talkorigins on the line to wiki ASAP and tell them to fix that before someone thinks about it..
A picture and an age written in the text are your evidence that bacteria had a flagellum from the beginning. You can't be serious, but I know you are.

So any picture or drawing of anything means that is how it looked originally. So if you have a picture of a broken vase then all vases must have originally been broken to start with.

I think you've got all the answers.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

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Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

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#106244
Nov 19, 2013
 
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Můr, put me in mind of the Welsh for carrot, a word I have often used to refer to chuckles. Itís perhaps the only word I know in welsh.
Itís not so bad now but up to a few years ago there was a problem when driving in Wales. The road signs are written in both English and Welsh. Welsh language activists would go around and spray paint the English directions out resulting in lots of lost tourists.
Talking about road signs, I think you may like this one http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/21/art...
Hehehe.

“My DNA tastes like chicken”

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#106245
Nov 19, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I just searched the web and noticed every time a Prokaryote was mentioned in the lit. a Flagella was associated. Then I looked up wiki and there it was, flagella and all. Please see my post to Dan. What got me started was Behe's book, Darwin's Black Box.
All bacteria have a cell engine and DNA. I read the most simple have million's of codons. This is not simple ABC stuff - it works orderly. Kenyon at first thought that the chemical valances self attracted into amino's and then evolved into the cell. Now in CHem class we learn things about this, and at that point it made sense. When he and others looked closer (I am sure he was influenced by someone else, they mention a student), he couldn't escape the fact that the amino's cannot self form. Then when finding that the DNA was the conductor of the orchestra he conceded. All too complex. The last half of the story never made it to the press nor the HS texts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_codon_table
I just searched the web and noticed a lot of pictures of zombies. Jinkies man WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT THE ZOMBIES?

You have a very fanciful imagination, but with each post you make describing your understanding of science I grow ever more doubtful that you have one.

I think you should focus your time on whatever "business" it is that you operate. With you at the helm, it is going to need all the attention it can get.

“My DNA tastes like chicken”

Level 9

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#106246
Nov 19, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
Many of the basis were above sea level, this is not a local catastrophe. Put about 30 years more geology under your belt.
Turtles dive to shallow water and can surface, they are found fossilized on-shore and in-shore, they would no be thousands of feet deep as the first to get covered. Fact as floaters they can be last.
Reptile's drown and immediately sink, doubt the big guys were good swimmers. The Morrison is a turbitity that covers thousands of square miles here and is full of them, mixed with clams and shells in a high-speed underwater mud flow. Recently found buried in soft body and still smelly, you will recall.
Oh and your theory does too rely on where the code and cell operation came from, nice try. My point is, the DNA code and cell mechanism has never been seen to evolve, it remains an untouched outside system controlling all life for your 3.6 bill years. why hasn't it changed if mindless evolution is so creative in all that time? This is a mechanism that utterly falsifies Darwinian evolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
The earth fried? I have no idea what you have been reading. We are here, our ancestors made it through the judgement, Dr. Brown here is really onto something -
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
But what about the Zombies? At least they don't have those horrible flagella. I have never seen pictures of them with flagella.

Turtles are reptiles. You know that right. Floaters and sinkers? I am sure you have a convoluted and highly imaginative unscientific line of no evidence to support that. Probably you first noticed it when the kids hit the pool.

Your misunderstanding of geology took 30 years? I would have guessed just one. Week.

“I started out with nothing”

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and still got most of it left

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#106247
Nov 19, 2013
 
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Reminds me of "This page left intentionally blank."
Yup

“Up with which, I will not put”

Since: Jul 08

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#106248
Nov 19, 2013
 

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SBT wrote:
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...My girls had horses, like a good dad i helped out. One time I was working a stall talking with someone. That horse in there with me started jawing silent words the best he could to join in, we were rolling and he was so frustrated.
Twas mushroom season in Texas I take it...
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

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#106249
Nov 19, 2013
 
SBT wrote:
Many of the basis were above sea level, this is not a local catastrophe. Put about 30 years more geology under your belt.
Since both of our combined years of geological experience is zero I am at a distinct advantage since I do not say reality isn't real because magic Jews.
SBT wrote:
Turtles dive to shallow water and can surface, they are found fossilized on-shore and in-shore, they would no be thousands of feet deep as the first to get covered. Fact as floaters they can be last.
Turtles can do nothing when they die. Especially male leatherbacks who do not go on land and sink like a rock when dead, as they weigh half a ton to a ton in weight. Therefore all modern leatherbacks should be at the bottom of the geological column, all the way down there beneath the trilobites, prokaryotes and pre-Cambrian bunnies.
SBT wrote:
Reptile's drown and immediately sink, doubt the big guys were good swimmers. The Morrison is a turbitity that covers thousands of square miles here and is full of them, mixed with clams and shells in a high-speed underwater mud flow. Recently found buried in soft body and still smelly, you will recall.
Which therefore should cover FAR more than thousands of miles. Indicating then that it was a local event.
SBT wrote:
Oh and your theory does too rely on where the code and cell operation came from, nice try.
On the contrary, it does not need to do so at all. For the EXACT same reason why the theory of gravity doesn't have to explain the origin of mass. All evolution requires is for life to be here. Life IS here. It doesn't care if life appeared naturally, by aliens or Godmagic. Life is here. Life evolves. Facts. In order to demonstrate otherwise you need to demonstrate that life is in fact NOT here.

Best of luck with that.
SBT wrote:
My point is, the DNA code and cell mechanism has never been seen to evolve, it remains an untouched outside system controlling all life for your 3.6 bill years.
Pure reality denial. If you were right we would all be identical clones. This not only contradicts observable genetics but what we can see with our own eyes. Oh, and there is nothing "outside" about life, unless you're pointing out that the vast majority of life is merely "outside" of your house.

Of which you apparently don't get out of very much.
SBT wrote:
why hasn't it changed if mindless evolution is so creative in all that time? This is a mechanism that utterly falsifies Darwinian evolution.
What mechanism? You proposed none. Genetics itself already falsifies your claims. We are all born with mutations. You claim they do not exist. You are wrong, period.
SBT wrote:
The earth fried? I have no idea what you have been reading. We are here, our ancestors made it through the judgement, Dr. Brown here is really onto something
"Doctor" Brown is not a doctor. He WAS a NASA engineer who "taught" high-school physics for 1 year, then he was born again. You can't move literally BILLIONS of tons of mass worldwide and expect everything to remain nice and cool. Especially as your buddy laughably claims that the flood is also responsible for all the asteroids, meteors and comets in the solar system. And what's more, some creationists like to add mountain-building into the mix, such as Mt Everest.

Noah's boat was made of wood.

If he had the USS Enterprise only then this scenario would work.

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Everett, WA

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#106250
Nov 19, 2013
 
SBT wrote:
<quoted text>
I dont see evolution in the fossil record. The fossil record shows one thing truly; in each specific deposit world-wide, huge and varied groups of unrelated animals, aquatic and land, were drowned together in sediments. That is what we actually see and hold in our hands with no exception.
You don't see it because you actively ignore it. Trust me, it is there. Not only that if you find a trained geologist he can take you out and show it to you too. There are very few areas on the surface of the Earth where you cannot drive for an hour or two and not get at least one exposure of sedimentary rock. Places where it might be hard to find the column are various volcanic islands. On the surface extreme flat areas like the Fargo/Moorehead area though there are still records made by drillers there.

At any rate if you went looking for evidence odds are you could find it.

And the vast majority of fossils are not of "drowned life" since they are marine in nature. Strange that those marine fossils have a total lack of land animals in them, must not have been a global flood.
Evo paleontologists pick one bone from here, one from there and line them up in evolutionary fashion holding out evo as the only "scientific" interpretation. Never mention the above. Findings are sorted with a viewpoint in mind and leave out the broader truth. Thats what makes it into the kids science texts.
No. That is not he way it is done. Someone has lied to you. Please back up idiot claims like this with evidence.
Take the Karoo, we have vertical fossil exposures thousands of feet thick, do we see evo as we move from bottom to top - No. We go to the Grand Canyon, working up the grand staircase, we see huge evo sections (Ordovician, Silurian), missing. Do we see evolution - no. Do we see sea floor life at the bottom of the GS yes in order of mobility, NOT evolutionary common ancestry sequence. One viewpoint vs another. One says many kinds buried catastrophically, another says each layer represents an eon of evolved life. The creation viewpoint is supported with eyewitnesses. Evo requires important things to be provable. Creation requires reasonable evidence also.
We have DNA and the cell operation squarely on our side. How did the complex and stasis in DNA coding come in the very beginning? We see this from Prokaryote fwd as it has never changed nor evolved. With that outside system controlling all life and the worlds oldest book saying what it says as a witness, is this not reasonable? How can man invalidate this position? How can we standback and allow children not to know these truths?
You have no truths. You have no evidence. This is a science debate, it requires scientific evidence. Scientific evidence is data that supports or debunks a scientific hypothesis or theory. If you don't have at least a testable hypothesis then you have no evidence by definition. Creationists no longer are willing to make testable hypotheses. Every time that they do their ideas have been quickly debunked. Meanwhile every time evolution has been tested over 150 years, and it has been tested many times each year, it passes the given tests.

That is why evolutionists love the scientific method and creationists hate it. It supports evolution and only evolution. If you want to learn it is not too late.

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