Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82599 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>Read the entire story. All Bruno did was make Galileo recant his work as not yet provable, it wasn't until Galileo insulted the leadership of the church that he was trialed for heresy.
If you put your mind to it and read up on the subject, you might be able to understand the entire picture instead of the bits and pieces people have told you.
READ the post.

Giordano Bruno is an ENTIRELY SEPARATE CASE from Galileo's. Bruno was the VICTIM of you Christians.

Your Church tortured and killed him for his astronomical ideas.
Mark

United States

#82600 Mar 24, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Nutjob nonsense.
Where is FossilBob when we need him? LOL
FossilBob is a professional geologist and teacher of geology at U of Indiana who recently retired. He has been spending much less time here on Topix, but his mission here on Topix was to expose and teach and embarrass YEC Christians who make silly claims like this.
Perhaps we can find him and direct him here.
Your inane "Biblical" nonsense won't play in conversation with a REAL geologist!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unconformi...

See the contact zone and think about what the rocks are trying to tell you folks. This is all over the earth.
Mark

United States

#82601 Mar 24, 2013
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, sadly there are quite a few facts of life that you have been left out of.
I have no idea what you mean by the "Great Unconformity". I can tell you one thing, it is not a geological term.
I will be happy to deal with the facts of geology. I have seen your posts and never have I seen a worse case of "have no clue"itis.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unconformi...

So because the pics are pretty good I used Wiki. All over the earth my friend. Every poster on this site needs to be honest with themselves and think about what this means. I do this because I care about every one of you. Now you have seen it, a sermon in the rocks.

M
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82603 Mar 24, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unconformi...
So because the pics are pretty good I used Wiki. All over the earth my friend. Every poster on this site needs to be honest with themselves and think about what this means. I do this because I care about every one of you. Now you have seen it, a sermon in the rocks.
M
Err, explain to us exactly how this "unconformity" is somehow proof of a young earth and an accurate Genesis creation story?
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82604 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>
While some people might have considered the earth to be flat at some time, you can only abstract it from the bible if you read flat into it. The people of the time of the bible knew the world was not flat.
It is historical fact that the people of the middle east at that time, including the people of Israel, conceived of the earth as a flat disc with a dome over it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

Quote:
The Flat Earth model is an archaic belief that the Earth's shape is a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures have had conceptions of a flat Earth, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD) and China until the 17th century. It was also typically held in the aboriginal cultures of the Americas, and a flat Earth domed by the firmament in the shape of an inverted bowl is common in pre-scientific societies.[1] The Jewish conception of a flat earth is found in biblical and post biblical times.[2][3][4]
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82605 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>
While some people might have considered the earth to be flat at some time, you can only abstract it from the bible if you read flat into it. The people of the time of the bible knew the world was not flat.
Incorrect. Since the Bible does not contain a specific astronomical lesson from your God, we BOTH are free to examine the textual evidence.

I've given 3 long, detailed posts which show how extensive the "flat earth" assumption of the Bible's writers was.

See the four posts here:
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/T9Q...

You've quoted Isaiah 40 a lot. A circle is not a sphere. A circle is drawn in two dimensions. In fact, the word "chug" also means elsewhere in the Bible the instrument known as a compass, which is used, of course. to draw a FLAT, TWO-DIMENSIONAL OBJECT, the circle.

You fail!
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>
. The people of the time of the bible knew the world was not flat.
Some people on the earth at that time did know it. Many educated Greeks did. Many sailors did.

But the uneducated, untraveled populace of the middle east, including Babylon and Israel believed in a flat disc with pillars covered by a disc with holes in it for the rain and with lights attached to it, etc.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82606 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>And yet you have failed to provide the word. You seem to be stuck on a toy that you think could have been used but wasn't.
I am not a student of ancient Hebrew. The existence of a ball and other spherical objects means that they did not need a name for the geometric name for a sphere to describe one.

Remember this was all in response to YOUR idiotic statement that the Hebrews did not have a word for sphere.
<quoted text>They could have done a number of things, but because they did not do something how you wanted them to does not in any way mean anything you say it does. This is not third grade recess and your sub Nancy Drew level of logic does not fit reality.
<quoted text>This is only true if you approach the subject insisting the earth it flat. You see, if you take that away, then it easily become a sphere with the same terminology. In science, they call this confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is something you have went through great trouble to achieve these past couple days.
Yes, they could have. I am not telling them what they had to do. The problem for you deniers of the fact is that not only do they use the word for flat, in context they imply a flat Earth.

So let me get this straight. Since we now know that the Earth is spherical, and even though the Hebrews used the word for a flat Earth and described a flat Earth we are supposed to believe that they really meant that the Earth was round simply because they did not have a word for sphere.

Does that sound reasonable to anyone?
<quoted text>Evidently you do not know much about Galileo, Urban VIII did not attack Galileo on the grounds of his heliocentrism but on grounds of personal attacks against the church in which Galileo made statements about the leadership of the church. As for Galileo's continuation of Copernicus' works, the church only said that the theory couldn't be proven or disproved and ordered him to not teach it as fact. Galileo continued to discuss it as theoretical mathematics until he insulted the leadership of the church and was forced into house arrest.
Oversimplified and incorrect. I know you love Wiki so:http://en.wikipedia.org/wik i/Galileo_affair

You are taking your script directly from a Catholic apologist site.
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-galileo-co...

This time I think I will go with Wiki.

{QUOTE]
<snip of repeated garbage>

I certainly would. Gravity is one of the most least understood products of nature. We have several theories on why and how it works but no clear answer outside of anecdotal Newtonian understandings.
Actually we have better than Newtonian understandings right now.
[QUOTE]<quoted text>Because you are a fool and I do not agree with the foolishness you spout does not make me dishonest. It makes you incorrect, ignorant, and searching for a way to save your fictitious worldview.
No, your own arrogant idiocy is what makes you dishonest.

You made an exceptionally stupid statement. You probably don't know how idiotic it was. That was what started all of this.

In a pathetic attempt to defend your statement your other prejudices are becoming apparent.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82607 Mar 24, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unconformi...
So because the pics are pretty good I used Wiki. All over the earth my friend. Every poster on this site needs to be honest with themselves and think about what this means. I do this because I care about every one of you. Now you have seen it, a sermon in the rocks.
M
Okay so what do you want to know about the "great unconformity" It is not a term in common usage today, but it is still easy to explain.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82608 Mar 24, 2013
Mark wrote:
<quoted text>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Unconformi...
See the contact zone and think about what the rocks are trying to tell you folks. This is all over the earth.
There are unconformities all over the Earth. They are not all of the same age.

What do you think they are trying to tell us?

If you mention a flood I might die laughing. That is one way that this site could get rid of me.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82609 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>Evidently you do not know much about Galileo, Urban VIII did not attack Galileo on the grounds of his heliocentrism but on grounds of personal attacks against the church in which Galileo made statements about the leadership of the church. As for Galileo's continuation of Copernicus' works, the church only said that the theory couldn't be proven or disproved and ordered him to not teach it as fact. Galileo continued to discuss it as theoretical mathematics until he insulted the leadership of the church and was forced into house arrest.
What a bald-faced LIAR you are! WHile he did insult some people including Urban, he was tried FOR HIS DIEAS and because they contradicted the then-established INTERPRETATION of the Bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galileo#Controve...

Quote:

In September 1632, Galileo was ordered to come to Rome to stand trial. He finally arrived in February 1633 and was brought before inquisitor Vincenzo Maculani to be charged.

Throughout his trial Galileo steadfastly maintained that since 1616 he had faithfully kept his promise not to hold any of the condemned opinions, and initially he denied even defending them. However, he was eventually persuaded to admit that, contrary to his true intention, a reader of his Dialogue could well have obtained the impression that it was intended to be a defence of Copernicanism.

In view of Galileo's rather implausible denial that he had ever held Copernican ideas after 1616 or ever intended to defend them in the Dialogue, his final interrogation, in July 1633, concluded with his being threatened with torture if he did not tell the truth, but he maintained his denial despite the threat.[58]

The sentence of the Inquisition was delivered on June 22. It was in three essential parts:

• Galileo was found "vehemently suspect of heresy", namely of having held the opinions that the Sun lies motionless at the centre of the universe, that the Earth is not at its centre and moves, and that one may hold and defend an opinion as probable after it has been declared contrary to Holy Scripture. He was required to "abjure, curse and detest" those opinions.[59]

• He was sentenced to formal imprisonment at the pleasure of the Inquisition.[60] On the following day this was commuted to house arrest, which he remained under for the rest of his life.

• His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.[61]

End quote
adif understanding

Lancaster, OH

#82610 Mar 24, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
It is historical fact that the people of the middle east at that time, including the people of Israel, conceived of the earth as a flat disc with a dome over it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth
Quote:
The Flat Earth model is an archaic belief that the Earth's shape is a plane or disk. Many ancient cultures have had conceptions of a flat Earth, including Greece until the classical period, the Bronze Age and Iron Age civilizations of the Near East until the Hellenistic period, India until the Gupta period (early centuries AD) and China until the 17th century. It was also typically held in the aboriginal cultures of the Americas, and a flat Earth domed by the firmament in the shape of an inverted bowl is common in pre-scientific societies.[1] The Jewish conception of a flat earth is found in biblical and post biblical times.[2][3][4]
It is not a fact, it is a fallacy perpetuated by ignorance. People long ago knew the earth was round or more to the point being discussed, people in the times of the bible knew the world to be round. You bringing up china and india and all that is pointless because we aren't discussing the entire history of earth, we are discussing the history of people influenced by the bible. I said there was some people, but those some are not the ones being discussed. Please stay on topic.
adif understanding

Lancaster, OH

#82611 Mar 24, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
READ the post.
Giordano Bruno is an ENTIRELY SEPARATE CASE from Galileo's. Bruno was the VICTIM of you Christians.
Your Church tortured and killed him for his astronomical ideas.
Hog wash. There isn't much more to say about it.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82612 Mar 24, 2013
From the New Advent CATHOLIC encyclopedia:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06342b.htm

Excerpts

It was not until four years later that trouble arose, the ecclesiastical authorities taking alarm at the persistence with which Galileo proclaimed the truth of the Copernican doctrine. That their opposition was grounded, as is constantly assumed, upon a fear lest men should be enlightened by the diffusion of scientific truth, it is obviously absurd to maintain. On the contrary, they were firmly convinced, with Bacon and others, that the new teaching was radically false and unscientific, while it is now truly admitted that Galileo himself had no sufficient proof of what he so vehemently advocated, and Professor Huxley after examining the case avowed his opinion that the opponents of Galileo "had rather the best of it".

But what, more than all, raised alarm was anxiety for the credit of Holy Scripture, the letter of which was then universally believed to be the supreme authority in matters of science, as in all others.

When therefore it spoke of the sun staying his course at the prayer of Joshua, or the earth as being ever immovable, it was assumed that the doctrine of Copernicus and Galileo was anti-Scriptural; and therefore heretical.

........

In these circumstances, Galileo, hearing that some had denounced his doctrine as anti-Scriptural, presented himself at Rome in December, 1615, and was courteously received. He was presently interrogated before the Inquisition, which after consultation declared the system he upheld to be scientifically false, and anti-Scriptural or heretical, and that he must renounce it.

Then followed a decree of the Congregation of the Index dated 5 March 1616, prohibiting various heretical works to which were added any advocating the Copernican system.

In thus acting, it is undeniable that the ecclesiastical authorities committed a grave and deplorable error, and sanctioned an altogether false principle as to the proper use of Scripture. Galileo and Foscarini rightly urged that the Bible is intended to teach men to go to heaven, not how the heavens go.

End quote from the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA!

No mention there that Galileo was tried because he insulted the Pope, etc.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82613 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>It is not a fact, it is a fallacy perpetuated by ignorance. People long ago knew the earth was round or more to the point being discussed, people in the times of the bible knew the world to be round. You bringing up china and india and all that is pointless because we aren't discussing the entire history of earth, we are discussing the history of people influenced by the bible. I said there was some people, but those some are not the ones being discussed. Please stay on topic.
You keep making this claim but provide no evidence at all backing your claim.

Without any evidence even Wiki beats you.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82614 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>Hog wash. There isn't much more to say about it.
Hogwash is putting what your church did rather lightly.

What your church did was much worse than hogwash. And when did they finally admit that they were wrong?
adif understanding

Lancaster, OH

#82615 Mar 24, 2013
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Incorrect. Since the Bible does not contain a specific astronomical lesson from your God, we BOTH are free to examine the textual evidence.
I've given 3 long, detailed posts which show how extensive the "flat earth" assumption of the Bible's writers was.
See the four posts here:
http://www.topix.com/forum/news/evolution/T9Q...
You've quoted Isaiah 40 a lot. A circle is not a sphere. A circle is drawn in two dimensions. In fact, the word "chug" also means elsewhere in the Bible the instrument known as a compass, which is used, of course. to draw a FLAT, TWO-DIMENSIONAL OBJECT, the circle.
You fail!
I didn't quote anything a lot. I do not normally go around quoting the bible. You should get your eyes checked or figure out how to deal with your reading comprehension problems. Many words in the bible have different meanings. No once have I seen any definition pertaining to the word used that has "flat" anywhere close to it. You infer it, the other idiot insists on it, but nowhere is there any definition with any credibility using it.

But I guess I will ask you the same of the previous idiot. Can you describe a ball without using the word sphere that does not fit the description of a circle. Without the term to delineate between the two, you simply cannot do it with the exception of demonsional which also wasn't a word at the time.

You fail just like the other idiot did. I do like how he called in backup though.
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Some people on the earth at that time did know it. Many educated Greeks did. Many sailors did.
But the uneducated, untraveled populace of the middle east, including Babylon and Israel believed in a flat disc with pillars covered by a disc with holes in it for the rain and with lights attached to it, etc.
I don't believe I said no one ever thought the world was flat. I did however say that at the time of the writing of the bible, they knew it wasn't. Many stories of the bible take place at or near the sea, on or with ships of the sea, and there is no reason for the people to not understand the world at that time.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82616 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>Hog wash. There isn't much more to say about it.
You pedophile priest motherfvcker, your Catholic Church tortured and killed people for their ideas!

AGAIN:

Giordano Bruno was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer. His cosmological theories went beyond the Copernican model in proposing that the Sun was essentially a star, and moreover, that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings.[2]

After the Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy, he was burned at the stake.

[3] After his death he gained considerable fame, particularly among 19th- and early 20th-century commentators who, focusing on his astronomical beliefs, regarded him as a martyr for free thought and modern scientific ideas.

End excerpt

Your church in the middle ages waged a vicious and murderous campaign against scientific ideas. And your popes were in the front ranks!
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#82617 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>I didn't quote anything a lot. I do not normally go around quoting the bible. You should get your eyes checked or figure out how to deal with your reading comprehension problems. Many words in the bible have different meanings. No once have I seen any definition pertaining to the word used that has "flat" anywhere close to it.
Circles have been defined since the early Greeks (who invented geometry) as flat drawings in two dimensions.

Chug not only describes a flat circle earth, it is also used elsewhere in the Bible to describe the actual physical instrument known as a compass with which 2-dimensional object s are drawn.

Can you draw a 3-dimensional sphere with a compass? Good luck!

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#82619 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
But I guess I will ask you the same of the previous idiot. Can you describe a ball without using the word sphere that does not fit the description of a circle. Without the term to delineate between the two, you simply cannot do it with the exception of demonsional which also wasn't a word at the time.
You fail just like the other idiot did. I do like how he called in backup though.
Whoa! Way to break the Ninth Commandment tard.
You never asked me to describe a ball without using the word sphree that does not fit the description of a circle.
You said that I couldn't and I replied that I could. You never directly asked me and I was not going to volunteer anything to a dishonest a-hole like you.
There is only one idiot here and he has just been caught lying.

“Darwin was right..of course.”

Level 9

Since: Jun 11

Iquique

#82620 Mar 24, 2013
adif understanding wrote:
<quoted text>No, not really. You see, if the science is created as part of the creation, then all fits nicely together. 99% of the bible is not in contradiction with any science and the parts you think are- aren't important to every day life.
<quoted text>You don't know what you are talking about.
<quoted text>Obviously you so not understand the bible or the story of Jesus. Perhaps when you learn a bit about it you can come back and play.
By the way, slavery is alive and well today. What on earth makes you think it isn't? Every state arrest and binds people to work programs for violations of their laws.
<quoted text>You really do not understand the Christian religion. IF you did, you wouldn't not have even come close to those statements. The bible is a record of covenants with god, all of what you listed is old covenants and not supported under the new covenant. What you are actually saying is, do you really want to ignore the covenant with Christ and go back to the old covenants that do not apply any more? That is the only way to make your statement sound sane in the reality of Christianity.
<quoted text>Why are you only concerned with the blacks? There was white slaves, Chinese slaves, indian's and many other slaves. slavery exists and thrives to this day in Africa, as well as is implied in the US as almost every state forces it's incarcerated populations to work in some fashion to either help pay for their keep or benefit the society they were plucked out of.
But all of that is moot due to your ignorance anyways. Those were the accepted ways of the past in the bible. They are not justified in the new testament or the new covenant with God. You should really try to understand what you are going to talk about before speaking. Of course there are idiots who claim to be christian who do not understand that too, but I suspect they got their biblical teachings from the same idiot you did.
Hello adif understanding, thanks for your reply.

You write:
“No, not really. You see, if the science is created as part of the creation, then all fits nicely together. 99% of the bible is not in contradiction with any science and the parts you think are- aren't important to everyday life.”

And:
“You don't know what you are talking about.”

Well, I’m going to totally disagree with you here. The science you think is unimportant is going to tear apart the Christian Dogma, as I said earlier.

And I do know what I am talking about.

Your books of Genesis, Exodus, and Joshua are not true. Most everything in them is now disproven.

Does it matter to you that the age of the earth is solidly 4.8 billion +- years old??

Does it matter to you that Adam and Eve as written in the Bible never existed?? It should, because without their ‘Original Sin’ there is no need for Jesus to rid us poor humans of this sin, and he is left with an embarrassing lack of work to do.

So.…Hmm…. no Jesus, or at least a Jesus out of work. Might be important to the Christian Dogma don’t you think?

The Noachian flood has been disproven so many times, and in so many ways, I’m not even going to go there.

The Tower of Babel is so easy to discredit and disprove I won’t even bother except to say; it really isn’t true at all….proven untrue years ago (evidence available if you want).

The Exodus has fairly recently (early 1990’s) been listed as disproven. No evidence AT ALL has been found to support a million plus Hebrews walking the Sinai desert for forty years, despite over a hundred years of archaeologists scouring it. This conclusion has been reached by Israeli archaeologists who have searched both the desert and the scientific literature for years.

Moses, as the author of the Pentateuch, has been seriously doubted by probably the majority of Biblical scholars for most, or all, of a hundred years.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Evolution Debate Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
The Satanic Character of Social Darwinism 25 min Zog Has-fallen 657
Should evolution be taught in high school? (Feb '08) 45 min Dogen 174,462
Darwin on the rocks 1 hr dog groomer 158
Bobby Jindal: "I'm Not an Evolutionary Biologist" 2 hr The Dude 14
It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in e... (Mar '09) 2 hr polymath257 137,376
Why are there no dinosaur pen is fossil? Sep 27 David M 2
New Fossil Reveals Multicellular Life Evolved 6... Sep 26 TedHOhio 8

Evolution Debate People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE