Evolution vs. Creation

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008. Full Story

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#70607 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
what about it?
I had just gone through it (in Germany). When I got out of the Air Force in 74, it was fresh in my mind. So when I had to do a persuasive speech, I went looking for related material. "Limits to Growth" presented itself. So I redid the computer analysis (with punch cards no less) and gave my speech on growth.

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#70608 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be difficult to have progress in human cloning because it's illegal in the first place.:/
Actually, it's not.

Only fifteen US States have laws regulating human cloning. A sixteenth, Louisiana, did, but it expired in 2003.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70609 Jan 11, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Here are two...uh...overviews, I guess:
http://www.sciencepub.net/nature/0201/06ma.pd...
This one discusses the problems with cloning:
http://cmbi.bjmu.edu.cn/news/0104/8.htm
Have fun :)
I understand the cloning process that takes place. It looks like the somatic cells comes from the donor with ‘desired genes’and using its nucleus to be fused with an empty egg or egg cytoplasm by reprogramming the nucleus.

My question is, what if the egg cytoplasm and somatic cells come from the same host? That would mean the clone is the identical twin of that host, right? Will a nuclear transfer be needed in this case? There is a process where an egg can be fertilized without a sperm but because the embryo doesn't have paternal chromosomes, it can't develop into a baby and we don’t know much about that technology yet so that is out of the question.

Or maybe in reproductive cloning, if the egg cytoplasm and somatic cell come from the same donor, that nuclear transfer will still have to take place for the oocyte to react on somatic cell nucleus and reach development after being stimulated by a shock. This is the SCNT process of a real clone. If however, a clone will have to come from two donors – one the egg donor and the DNA of another, considering the fact that at least 1% of the egg donor will pass on the genes to the clone, then that is not really a clone, but same sex reproduction!

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70610 Jan 11, 2013
I meant to say the egg donor will pass on 1% of her genes...

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70611 Jan 11, 2013
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>Actually, it's not.
Only fifteen US States have laws regulating human cloning. A sixteenth, Louisiana, did, but it expired in 2003.
Are you sure? I know some states allow stem cell research but not human cloning. Do you have a source?

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70612 Jan 11, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
I had just gone through it (in Germany). When I got out of the Air Force in 74, it was fresh in my mind. So when I had to do a persuasive speech, I went looking for related material. "Limits to Growth" presented itself. So I redid the computer analysis (with punch cards no less) and gave my speech on growth.
So we're going to run out of oil reserves? By when?

“Pissing people off since 1949”

Level 8

Since: Apr 08

Seffner, FL

#70614 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
So we're going to run out of oil reserves? By when?
Eventually. When is a function of how much oil reserved are to be discovered.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#70615 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I understand the cloning process that takes place. It looks like the somatic cells comes from the donor with ‘desired genes’and using its nucleus to be fused with an empty egg or egg cytoplasm by reprogramming the nucleus.
My question is, what if the egg cytoplasm and somatic cells come from the same host? That would mean the clone is the identical twin of that host, right? Will a nuclear transfer be needed in this case? There is a process where an egg can be fertilized without a sperm but because the embryo doesn't have paternal chromosomes, it can't develop into a baby and we don’t know much about that technology yet so that is out of the question.
Or maybe in reproductive cloning, if the egg cytoplasm and somatic cell come from the same donor, that nuclear transfer will still have to take place for the oocyte to react on somatic cell nucleus and reach development after being stimulated by a shock. This is the SCNT process of a real clone. If however, a clone will have to come from two donors – one the egg donor and the DNA of another, considering the fact that at least 1% of the egg donor will pass on the genes to the clone, then that is not really a clone, but same sex reproduction!
A bit rusty...i skipped a few months on the topic.
But begetting a girl also means deleting the male matter.
And as far as i know that process is documented.
So it could be reproduced as in introducing the matter with inbuild self-destruct just to get the proces going.

There never was an oil crisis in '73, it was just seen as a good way to make people aware and to drive up the prices.
But yes sooner or later we will run out.
Methane will probably become the next thing.
Our kids will live in the Big Stink. Aren't we the lucky ones!
Chung

Singapore, Singapore

#70616 Jan 11, 2013
Pepople still believe in magic silliness?

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Level 7

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#70617 Jan 11, 2013
Chung wrote:
Pepople still believe in magic silliness?
*sigh*

"They say a handful still survive..."
GodIsAnEyeball

East Bernstadt, KY

#70618 Jan 11, 2013
It doesn't take magic to be respectful towards/of others.

Just common sense and decency.

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70619 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
It would be difficult to have progress in human cloning because it's illegal in the first place.:/
It's not illegal in all nations.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70620 Jan 11, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not illegal in all nations.
Why not do something that's legal for now? If the nucleus of a somatic cell is inserted in an empty egg, that will be a hybrid egg and then fertilize it with a sperm. After it's fertilized, let the egg grow in a womb of a surrogate mother. If this technology is doable I will be glad to participate by being the somatic cell donor. Anyone want to chime in in this fantasy? LOLOL!

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70621 Jan 11, 2013
oh please don't take it seriously...

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70622 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I understand the cloning process that takes place. It looks like the somatic cells comes from the donor with ‘desired genes’and using its nucleus to be fused with an empty egg or egg cytoplasm by reprogramming the nucleus.
My question is, what if the egg cytoplasm and somatic cells come from the same host? That would mean the clone is the identical twin of that host, right? Will a nuclear transfer be needed in this case? There is a process where an egg can be fertilized without a sperm but because the embryo doesn't have paternal chromosomes, it can't develop into a baby and we don’t know much about that technology yet so that is out of the question.
Or maybe in reproductive cloning, if the egg cytoplasm and somatic cell come from the same donor, that nuclear transfer will still have to take place for the oocyte to react on somatic cell nucleus and reach development after being stimulated by a shock. This is the SCNT process of a real clone. If however, a clone will have to come from two donors – one the egg donor and the DNA of another, considering the fact that at least 1% of the egg donor will pass on the genes to the clone, then that is not really a clone, but same sex reproduction!
Yes, you're correct, in one way here: the clone gets its nuclear DNA from one individual, and is identical in terms of nuclear DNA to that individual, but receives its mitochondrial DNA from the egg its put into. However, mtDNA comprises only 37 genes and reproduces separately from nuclear DNA, so it's a bit inaccurate to write the mtDNA as a percentage of nuclear DNA. But, yes, if both came from one individual, it would be a more perfect representation of that individual.

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70623 Jan 11, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
Why not do something that's legal for now? If the nucleus of a somatic cell is inserted in an empty egg, that will be a hybrid egg and then fertilize it with a sperm. After it's fertilized, let the egg grow in a womb of a surrogate mother. If this technology is doable I will be glad to participate by being the somatic cell donor. Anyone want to chime in in this fantasy? LOLOL!
hahaha, wow, I don't know if that's possible.

I have a friend who's medical research is on how to increase fertility in eggs used to make test tube babies :)

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#70624 Jan 11, 2013
MikeF wrote:
<quoted text>
Eventually. When is a function of how much oil reserved are to be discovered.
Actually we will never run out of oil. It will just keep getting more and more expensive. It will eventually get priced off of the market. Though that will not happen for a while. As the price goes up and technology improves what used to be unretrievable will become economical. Even if oil cost $100.00 a gallon there are some uses of it that will still be of value. Driving a car probably will be not one of them at that point.

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70626 Jan 11, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, great question!
May I ask you one? Why don't you study this stuff in greater detail - you have good ideas, the answers are waitingforyou!
It's more complex than that. Humans - well, all animals - have mechanisms to detect deleterious mutations and abort developing fetuses.
Our DNA repairing mechanisms work when the entire system is functioning - in viable phenotypes. When the mutations are too severe, the developing organism self-destructs. Also, when the mutations are too severe, they interfere with the ability of the organism to function; so it dies.
Cloning doesn't quite work like that, though I'm sure those systems are operating, too. The main problems with cloning are lie in teleomere length, if I remember correctly. Teleomeres shorten every time a cell reproduces. When they get too short, cells are no longer viable, and you get cellular death, then organ failure. So in older animals, teleomeres are getting shorter - when you clone them, you've started with old teleomeres, giving the clone a limited lifespan.
I'm sure there's more to it than that, but I'm not super familiar with how cloning works. Part of the problem is where you choose your cell - depending on location, cells have only part of your genes active and most of your genome shut off. So, if you clone from the skin cells you're going to have different problems than if you clone from muscle or stem cells.
And, yes, you might have mutation, though I would guess that would be the rarest problem. The largest problems are the ones I mentioned above, plus that somatic cells are simply not chemically cued to reproduce as germline cells. So various parts of them fail in ways that I am not familiar with.
I read that there are environmental factors that affect or damage DNA cells such as UV light and radiation. And also 'electric shock' is one of them. Do you think because in cloning electric shock is administered to the the egg to activate the nucleus or cell division that it damages the DNA causing deleterious mutations?

“what we think we become”

Level 5

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#70627 Jan 11, 2013
I know DNA damage is different from a mutation but perhaps the electric shock causes both to occur in the DNA.

“Why does my ignorance”

Level 5

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#70628 Jan 12, 2013
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
I read that there are environmental factors that affect or damage DNA cells such as UV light and radiation. And also 'electric shock' is one of them. Do you think because in cloning electric shock is administered to the the egg to activate the nucleus or cell division that it damages the DNA causing deleterious mutations?
Yes, environmental effects damage DNA. It's quite possible the electric shock could do something, but whatever effect it has is very likely minimal.

Rather, the problems likely have something to do with the absence of epigenetic cues. Nuclear DNA does not have the methylation that gametic DNA does; most nuclear DNA is simply switched off. The shock turns it back on, so it can build a new individual. However, that individual is built in the absence of the environmental cues that all normal individuals develop because of (not only within).

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