Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 219598 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

“I Am No One Else”

Level 7

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#49554 Sep 29, 2012
MASTER wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.asp...
"The only remaining explanation for the similarity of human chromosome 2 to chromosomes 2A and 2B in the chimpanzee is that God created mankind with 46 chromosomes including a second chromosome with the visible characteristics that we see today. No evidence or any line of rational thought can explain how a single human underwent a genetic chromosomal fusion and passed that alteration to all of mankind—except that he was created by God at the beginning, along with woman, with that chromosomal makeup.
Atheists have asked why God would purposefully create a human chromosome that “looks” like the fusion of two chromosomes. At this stage of understanding, we do not know. Recall God’s words:“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”(Isaiah 55:8-9, ESV). Eliphaz rightly stated:“He catches the wise in their own craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are brought to a quick end”(Job 5:13, ESV). We cannot know God’s intentions for creating us as we exist, nor can we know why He created chimpanzees with such close genetic similarities to humans. We can know, however, that despite the close similarities in genetics, anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry between Homo sapiens and Pan troglodytes, man can think and reason far beyond the chimpanzee or any other living organism.(It is doubtful that genetics will ever solely explain that difference.) But, the greatest difference will always be that man alone has an immortal soul which is yet another created gift from God."
So, since your bible has nothing to say on the matter, you make something up and run with it, ignoring the simple fact that we know how it happened using nothing but very basic deduction. Sheesh, if anything contradicts your bible, you ignore it.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#49556 Sep 29, 2012
MASTER wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.asp...
"The only remaining explanation for the similarity of human chromosome 2 to chromosomes 2A and 2B in the chimpanzee is that God created mankind with 46 chromosomes including a second chromosome with the visible characteristics that we see today. No evidence or any line of rational thought can explain how a single human underwent a genetic chromosomal fusion and passed that alteration to all of mankind—except that he was created by God at the beginning, along with woman, with that chromosomal makeup.
Atheists have asked why God would purposefully create a human chromosome that “looks” like the fusion of two chromosomes. At this stage of understanding, we do not know. Recall God’s words:“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”(Isaiah 55:8-9, ESV). Eliphaz rightly stated:“He catches the wise in their own craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are brought to a quick end”(Job 5:13, ESV). We cannot know God’s intentions for creating us as we exist, nor can we know why He created chimpanzees with such close genetic similarities to humans. We can know, however, that despite the close similarities in genetics, anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry between Homo sapiens and Pan troglodytes, man can think and reason far beyond the chimpanzee or any other living organism.(It is doubtful that genetics will ever solely explain that difference.) But, the greatest difference will always be that man alone has an immortal soul which is yet another created gift from God."
Your article makes the common creationist mistake of assuming that evolutionary changes have to take "all at once". When the join first occurred it only had to happen in one individual. As long as the join resulted in positive survival traits it would very likely survive. We can see other animals with joined chromosomes besides man, and breeding them with their relatives has no ethical drawbacks. For example everyone knows that you can interbreed a horse and an ass and get a mule. The two parents have different number of chromosomes and yet have no problem breeding. "But wait" screams the creationist, "the offspring of those two animals is infertile." And yes, for once creationists would be right. Of course the wild horse or Przewalski's horse and the domestic horse have different numbers of chromosomes and their offspring is fertile. Oh oh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_horse

In other words, the writer of your article does not understand basic biology. All it that would be required for us to have the joined chromosomes we have today is for one successful mutation. Not many, several, or even two at the same time. It only had to happen once.

“I am Sisyphus”

Since: Nov 07

Location hidden

#49557 Sep 29, 2012
MASTER wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.asp...
"The only remaining explanation for the similarity of human chromosome 2 to chromosomes 2A and 2B in the chimpanzee is that God created mankind with 46 chromosomes including a second chromosome with the visible characteristics that we see today. No evidence or any line of rational thought can explain how a single human underwent a genetic chromosomal fusion and passed that alteration to all of mankind—except that he was created by God at the beginning, along with woman, with that chromosomal makeup.
Atheists have asked why God would purposefully create a human chromosome that “looks” like the fusion of two chromosomes. At this stage of understanding, we do not know. Recall God’s words:“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”(Isaiah 55:8-9, ESV). Eliphaz rightly stated:“He catches the wise in their own craftiness, and the schemes of the wily are brought to a quick end”(Job 5:13, ESV). We cannot know God’s intentions for creating us as we exist, nor can we know why He created chimpanzees with such close genetic similarities to humans. We can know, however, that despite the close similarities in genetics, anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry between Homo sapiens and Pan troglodytes, man can think and reason far beyond the chimpanzee or any other living organism.(It is doubtful that genetics will ever solely explain that difference.) But, the greatest difference will always be that man alone has an immortal soul which is yet another created gift from God."

This is just poor religious philosophy. It has no scientific backing and denies (ignores) what is known. That does you no good. Anyone can say (or quote) anything. But you have not given anyone any scientific reason to accept your philosophy and science has many reasons to reject it. The fact is we have a pair of chromosomes that are fuse into one by a genetic mutation. Other species have similar mutations with the same tell tale signs (telomeres in the middle of the chromosome).

So you have any SCIENTIFIC reason for rejecting several whole fields of science? Or any other reason other than you think your religion requires you to do so?

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#49558 Sep 29, 2012
MASTER wrote:
Chromosome number 2 is PROOF that we are not apes!
Not one ape ever had a fused number 2 chromosome. It ONLY found in humans.
Yes, it's found in human *apes*. The human species has a fused chromosome. That's evidence that the human species descended from a population where the chromosomes were *not* fused.

And our DNA lines up quite nicely with the DNA of other great apes.
If the DNA did *not* line up so well,*then* it would be evidence that we are not closely related to other great apes.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#49559 Sep 29, 2012
You don't know whether the Harry Potter books are fiction or non-fiction?
MASTER wrote:
<quoted text>
"Are the Harry Potter books fiction or non-fiction?"
Really?
What a clod poll !
So you don't know either?
MASTER

United States

#49560 Sep 29, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>Your article makes the common creationist mistake of assuming that evolutionary changes have to take "all at once". When the join first occurred it only had to happen in one individual. As long as the join resulted in positive survival traits it would very likely survive. We can see other animals with joined chromosomes besides man, and breeding them with their relatives has no ethical drawbacks. For example everyone knows that you can interbreed a horse and an ass and get a mule. The two parents have different number of chromosomes and yet have no problem breeding. "But wait" screams the creationist, "the offspring of those two animals is infertile." And yes, for once creationists would be right. Of course the wild horse or Przewalski's horse and the domestic horse have different numbers of chromosomes and their offspring is fertile. Oh oh.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wild_horse

In other words, the writer of your article does not understand basic biology. All it that would be required for us to have the joined chromosomes we have today is for one successful mutation. Not many, several, or even two at the same time. It only had to happen once.
http://globalchristiancenter.com/creation-or-...

"It is a scientific fact that chromosomes can fuse together to form one big chromosome, so to explain away the difference in our chromosome counts, Darwinists take a leap of faith. They believe two chromosomes fused together in an unknown primate ancestor to form human chromosome 2.
Then they claim this faith-based belief as their great proof for Darwinism. Hmmm.
Let's get back to the actual science as important facts contradict this biased assumption.
Multiple studies have revealed that sheep which have multiple chromosome fusions are indistinguishable from sheep which do not have the fused chromosomes. What this means is that such fusions do not create new and beneficial genetic information that causes one kind of critter, like an ape, to evolve into another kind, like a human.
Science shows that human chromosome 2 contains complex genetic information that is not found in apes, including many protein coding genes. Likewise, scientists have never shown how such complex genetic information could come about by natural processes.
It is the genetic data that is the big difference between ape and man - not the number of chromosomes holding the data. Afterall, tobacco plants, like apes, also have 48 chromosomes yet no one is claiming that they are close relatives!
In other words, even if human chromosome 2 was the result of a fusion event it would be best explained as the fusion of two human chromosomes, not from a fusion that occurred, once upon a time, in some non-observed primate ancestor."
TEEstrong

United States

#49561 Sep 29, 2012
creation started it. evolution maintains it..
wolverine

Greeley, CO

#49562 Sep 29, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh woofy, little boy you would be in a world of hurt.
Yes, I am stuck in a world ruled by the scientific method. It is the only one that has consistently worked. Show me a better method and I will switch.
We do have fossil records of people evolving from apes. I know we have linked articles of the many transitional forms that we have found. And I don't think I have lost. First off our side did not use propaganda, we based our claims on facts.
By the way, are you sticking with your "Flood Claim"? When someone says something that stupid I don't want to hang them on only one post.
Fossil Record Of Apes Evolving Into Humans....??? Laughable

Lucy And The Others Are Chimps, They Dont Even Have The Inner Cochlear Bones Needed For Balance, Found In Humans

Facts Are, Your Scientific Method Is Stretching And Outright Lying About The Fossils.

By The Way...You Never Answered Why Oil Is Found Below Bedrock.

The Flood Seriously Answers All Your Dorkish Questions. Never Been Disproved...Only Speculation By Idiots.

And, You Have No Idea How Easily I Would Teach You Manners.

Other Then That, Your A lying Loser, And Teamed With The Minority Of Fools.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#49563 Sep 29, 2012
MASTER wrote:
http://globalchristiancenter.com/creation-or-...
"It is a scientific fact that chromosomes can fuse together to form one big chromosome, so to explain away the difference in our chromosome counts, Darwinists take a leap of faith. They believe two chromosomes fused together in an unknown primate ancestor to form human chromosome 2.
Which is not a "leap of faith", but is based upon the fact that the chromosome itself provides evidence of the fusion event.
MASTER wrote:
Multiple studies have revealed that sheep which have multiple chromosome fusions are indistinguishable from sheep which do not have the fused chromosomes.
Which studies are those? Can you identify them?
MASTER wrote:
What this means is that such fusions do not create new and beneficial genetic information that causes one kind of critter, like an ape, to evolve into another kind, like a human.
It wasn't claimed that the fusion event *caused* any evolution or event that it "created new and beneficial genetic information". So you're engaged in a straw man.
MASTER wrote:
Afterall, tobacco plants, like apes, also have 48 chromosomes yet no one is claiming that they are close relatives!
The DNA of tobacco plants doesn't line up with human DNA. The DNA of other great apes does.
MASTER wrote:
In other words, even if human chromosome 2 was the result of a fusion event it would be best explained as the fusion of two human chromosomes, not from a fusion that occurred, once upon a time, in some non-observed primate ancestor."
Except that it doesn't explain why the fusion is present in *all* humans. Not just a portion.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#49564 Sep 29, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
Do you have a Chromosome 2? Yes or no?
<quoted text>
Wrong answer.
Learn some basic biology.(And while you're at it, learn the proper use of commas.)
Basic or Elementary Biology, is not the issue, the issue is that, humans and apes are two different beings.
wolverine

Greeley, CO

#49565 Sep 29, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Because he actually learned something in school?
Obviously Not, He Was Indoctrinated
MASTER

United States

#49566 Sep 29, 2012
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>This is just poor religious philosophy. It has no scientific backing and denies (ignores) what is known. That does you no good. Anyone can say (or quote) anything. But you have not given anyone any scientific reason to accept your philosophy and science has many reasons to reject it. The fact is we have a pair of chromosomes that are fuse into one by a genetic mutation. Other species have similar mutations with the same tell tale signs (telomeres in the middle of the chromosome).

So you have any SCIENTIFIC reason for rejecting several whole fields of science? Or any other reason other than you think your religion requires you to do so?
"This is just poor religious philosophy"

Like you're the expert. LMAO

[EDITOR’S NOTE: The following article was written by A.P. staff scientist Will Brooks, who holds a Ph.D. in Cell Biology from the University of Alabama at Birmingham.]

Bowers, Evelyn J.(2003),“Chromosomal Speciation,” Science, 301[5634]: 764-5.

Forrest, Barbara and Kenneth R. Miller (2009),“The Evolution of Creationism,” Experimental Biology 2009,[On-line], URL: http://www.eb2009.org/ .

Weinberg Johannes, et al.(1994),“The Origin of Human Chromosome 2 Analyzed by Comparative Chromo-some Mapping with a DNA Micro-library,” Chromosome Research, 2:405-410.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#49567 Sep 29, 2012
Subduction Zone wrote:
<quoted text>
Your article makes the common creationist mistake of assuming that evolutionary changes have to take "all at once".
Well, that's because they get their science from comic books where getting bit by gamma rays can turn an individual into a giant gray behemoth.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#49568 Sep 29, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
A law that you fail to follow.
Oh!
You thought i didn't know what you were saying.
wolverine

Greeley, CO

#49569 Sep 29, 2012
MASTER wrote:
<quoted text>
I truly hate to correct you on this.
You can show him manners but
If he is in capable of learning then
you can't teach him manners.
LOL...In My Haste I Made An Assumption, You Are Correct.

But I Think If I Bent Him Like A Pretzel, And Showed Him His Azz Thru A Straw ?....He Might Learn ?

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#49571 Sep 29, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
No, they don't.
May be in your country.
In my country, we take it, as general studies.
wolverine

Greeley, CO

#49572 Sep 29, 2012
Dogen wrote:
<quoted text>
I have never claimed to be agnostic. I am a Christian. Just not an ignorant or brainwashed one.
Do You Attend Church ?
Do you Keep The Sabbath ?
Do You Keep The Ten Commandments..??

If You Do...I Apologize...If Not, Your No Christian.

Level 2

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#49573 Sep 29, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
Chromosome 2 in human beings is the result of a fusion event between two separate chromosomes in the evolution of humans from the common ancestral population that humans share with other great apes.
Now, admit that you were wrong about whether or not humans have a Chromosome 2.
Humans and apes, two different beings, created by the living God. You are wrong again.
MASTER

United States

#49574 Sep 29, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>You don't know whether the Harry Potter books are fiction or non-fiction?

So you don't know either?
Oh could you please let me in on it?
Are you for real?
These questions really make you look like a 10 year old.

Level 9

Since: Sep 08

Everett, WA

#49575 Sep 29, 2012
MASTER wrote:
<quoted text>
http://globalchristiancenter.com/creation-or-...
"It is a scientific fact that chromosomes can fuse together to form one big chromosome, so to explain away the difference in our chromosome counts, Darwinists take a leap of faith. They believe two chromosomes fused together in an unknown primate ancestor to form human chromosome 2.
Then they claim this faith-based belief as their great proof for Darwinism. Hmmm.
Let's get back to the actual science as important facts contradict this biased assumption.
Multiple studies have revealed that sheep which have multiple chromosome fusions are indistinguishable from sheep which do not have the fused chromosomes. What this means is that such fusions do not create new and beneficial genetic information that causes one kind of critter, like an ape, to evolve into another kind, like a human.
Science shows that human chromosome 2 contains complex genetic information that is not found in apes, including many protein coding genes. Likewise, scientists have never shown how such complex genetic information could come about by natural processes.
It is the genetic data that is the big difference between ape and man - not the number of chromosomes holding the data. Afterall, tobacco plants, like apes, also have 48 chromosomes yet no one is claiming that they are close relatives!
In other words, even if human chromosome 2 was the result of a fusion event it would be best explained as the fusion of two human chromosomes, not from a fusion that occurred, once upon a time, in some non-observed primate ancestor."
No, people who understand the theory of evolution do not take a "huge leap of faith" when it comes to the fused chromosomes. The mere fact that we have a fused chromosome is not good enough. What shows that we definitely had a common ancestor is that those fused chromosomes is that the unfused chromosomes in other apes would be almost identical to ours if they were fused.

You do not understand the nature of evidence. All science uses theory. A theory will create several models based upon that theory. For a theory to be valid it must be able to show that real world facts will work in the model created by the theory. The theory of evolution creates quite a few models, all of which agree with reality. Creationism cannot do that.

That is why I challenge creationists to make models that fit creationism. No creationist has been successful at making models that fit reality. That is why I ask the questions that I do. I want you to try to make models to describe several things. What is a model of "kinds"? If you cannot define "kinds" you cannot use them in a scientific debate. We can point out that since it has no definition it is a nonsensical term. Make a model that describes how the fossil record and sedimentary rocks came to be. Again, I am betting that you will fail.

If one science can make models that fit real world events and another cannot it is pretty clear which one fits reality.

One last point. You try to use the term "Darwinist" as if it were a pejorative. That is fine with me, as long as you don't mind if I call you a "boardist". That is a strange cult that believes good things will happen if you nail someone to some boards and wait for him to die.

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