It's normal to question the dogma of natural selection

Posted in the Evolution Debate Forum

First Prev
of 5
Next Last
Shadow

Moulton, UK

#1 Dec 11, 2011
This is a list of mostly non-religious scientists who have all spoken out against the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution - natural selection and random mutation and have questioned the role of it in evolution:

James A. Shapiro,
Alfred Russel Wallace,
Lev Berg,
Marcel-Paul Schutzenberger,
Michael Denton,
Michael Pitman,
David Berlinski,
Periannan Senapathy,
Chandra Wickramasighe,
Murray Eden,
Stanly Salthe,
Christian Schwabe,
Gerald Kerkut,
Lime-De-Faria,
Pierre Grasse,
Soren Lovtrop,
Fred Hoyle,
Stuart Pivar,
Guy Berthault,
Roberto Fondi,
Giuseppe Sermonti,
Edward Sisson,
Richard Sternberg,
Frank Tipler,
Brian Goodwin,
Peter Saunders,
Richard Milton,
Robert Wesson,
Francis Hitching,
Frank Ryan,
Gordon Rattray Taylor,
James Lovelock,
Lynn Margulis,
Rhawn Joseph,
Henry Fairfield Osborn,
Charles Otis Whitman,
Austin Hobart Clark,
Theodor Eimer,
Erwin Schrödinger,
Hans Dreisch,
John Scott Haldane,
James Le Fanu,
Johannes Reinke,
Guy Coburn Robson,
Rupert Sheldrake,
Robert Broom,
Thomas Hunt Morgan,
William Bateson,
Edward Drinker Cope,
Richard Owen,
George Henslow,
Carl Von Nageli,
Karl Von Baer,
Wilhelm Haacke,
William Lang,
Hans Prizibram,
Otto Schindewolf,
Daniel de Rosa,
Paul Davies,
Robert Lanza,
George Greenstein,
Mae-Wan Ho,
JohnJoe McFadden,
Bruce Lipton,
Ervin Lazlo,
Amit Goswami,
Hubert Yockey,
David Stove,
Jerry Fodor,
James N. Gardner,
Jean Staune,
Lee Spetner,
Antony Flew,
Bradley Monton

As you can see, it is perfectly normal to question natural selection and random mutation as the mechanisms of evolution, you do not have to be a creationist, religious etc. Don't just accept it at face value, explore the other theories of evolution.
LowellGuy

Brooklyn, NY

#2 Dec 11, 2011
Which ones are professional scientists? Of those, which are biologists? Of those, which are not denounced as religious zealots who have abandoned legitimate science in favor of their religious agenda?
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#3 Dec 11, 2011
A number of the names above are (or were) Jesus Freaks like you and are (or were) working an agenda when they criticized evolution (like you).

Anthony Flew was a senile philosopher who had no standing from which to criticize the biological theory of evolution.
Shadow

Moulton, UK

#4 Dec 11, 2011
Gillette wrote:
A number of the names above are (or were) Jesus Freaks like you and are (or were) working an agenda when they criticized evolution (like you).
Anthony Flew was a senile philosopher who had no standing from which to criticize the biological theory of evolution.
Just lies and personal insults.

None of the names on the list are religious, none of them have denied evolution, they are all form evolutionists!, the majority atheists or agnostics. Majority of them are biologists, physicists and some philosophers.

Jesus Freaks like me? When I have never read the bible and do not believe in any religious god?- Why do you feel the need to call anyone who questions natural selection a "Jesus Freak" and make up lies about them. More atheists than christians have questioned natural selection.

"working an agenda when they criticized evolution (like you)."

Like all the scientists on the list I accept evolution, just not darwins mechanism of natural selection. Why do you equate darwins theory with evolution?

All this proves is that:

1. Users have to make u lies about others.
2. Users are confusing natural selection with evolution.

Natural selection is not evolution, it is an interpretation of evolution. Other evolutionary mechanisms exist.

Darwinism, Darwins theory of evolution is not evolution itself, it is an interpretation of evolution, other evolutionary theories exist.

Natural selection is a fairytale, science does not confirm it. Other evolutionary mechanisms which are "non-Darwinian" are more important. But you would not understand that becuase you bum lick Darwin at any cost and defend natural selection like a religion. Learn to open your mind, you have shut yourself so far in.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#5 Dec 11, 2011
Shadow wrote:
This is a list of mostly non-religious scientists who have all spoken out against the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution - natural selection and random mutation and have questioned the role of it in evolution:

Fred Hoyle,
Just one example of the sort of LIES that "creationists" tell:

Fred Hoyle did NOT question the mechanism of natural selection. His problem was with abiogenesis and the mechanisms provided for the beginning of life (note his famous tornado through a junkyard argument from incredulity).

Further, Fred Hoyle also said the following;

"The creationist is a sham religious person who, curiously, has no true sense of religion. In the language of religion, it is the facts we observe in the world around us that must be seen to constitute the words of God. Documents, whether the Bible, Qur'an or those writings that held such force for Velikovsky, are only the words of men. To prefer the words of men to those of God is what one can mean by blasphemy. This, we think, is the instinctive point of view of most scientists who, curiously again, have a deeper understanding of the real nature of religion than have the many who delude themselves into a frenzied belief in the words, often the meaningless words, of men. Indeed, the lesser the meaning, the greater the frenzy, in something like inverse proportion. " (Our Place in the Cosmos, 1993)

Which demonstrates that Fred Hoyle had more problems with the SHAM religious people known as "creationists" than he did with real science.

Also: Fred Hoyle was an astronomer and mathematician, NOT a biologist.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#6 Dec 11, 2011
Shadow wrote:
<quoted text>
Just lies ...
Pretty much everyone in the world who has any contact with "fundamentalist christian creationists" KNOW who the LIARS are.

Would you like to know what my cousins in the Netherlands think of you "creotards"?
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#7 Dec 11, 2011
Shadow wrote:
<quoted text>
Just lies and personal insults.
Hey, shadow, how many of your relatives and friends will even talk to you about science? My guess is most of them avoid you as much as possible when you go on one of your insane, anti=science rants.
Shadow

Moulton, UK

#8 Dec 11, 2011
MIDutch please do not post if you are going to continue to be abusive, just calm down a second and actually look at this.

MIDutch are you willing to admit you are wrong? Becuase regarding Fred Hoyle you are very wrong.

When I was 16, I brought Fred Hoyle's book "Intelligent Universe", the third chapter was the biggest attack on natural selection that I have ever read.

" Fred Hoyle did NOT question the mechanism of natural selection. "

It is a confirmed fact that he did question and reject the mechanism of natural selection mainly based on mathematical grounds. You have not read his works.

Anyway here is the reference which refutes your comment. I hope you for once can actually be honest and admit you were wrong:

http://books.google.co.uk/books...

Read that and understand that Hoyle spent most the last 30 years of his life attacking natural selection, he even wrote a book titled "why neodarwinism does not work".

Accept when you are wrong MIDutch.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#9 Dec 11, 2011
Shadow wrote:
MIDutch please do not post if you are going to continue to be abusive, just calm down a second and actually look at this.
MIDutch are you willing to admit you are wrong? Becuase regarding Fred Hoyle you are very wrong.
When I was 16, I brought Fred Hoyle's book "Intelligent Universe", the third chapter was the biggest attack on natural selection that I have ever read.
" Fred Hoyle did NOT question the mechanism of natural selection. "
It is a confirmed fact that he did question and reject the mechanism of natural selection mainly based on mathematical grounds. You have not read his works.
Anyway here is the reference which refutes your comment. I hope you for once can actually be honest and admit you were wrong:
http://books.google.co.uk/books...
Read that and understand that Hoyle spent most the last 30 years of his life attacking natural selection, he even wrote a book titled "why neodarwinism does not work".
Accept when you are wrong MIDutch.
Okay, I admit I was wrong about Hoyle and his criticism of natural selection ... but guess what, it is irrelevant. Heck, he even claimed that Archaeopteryx was a fake ... and everyone knows how that argument of his turned out, don't we?
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#10 Dec 11, 2011
Shadow wrote:
MIDutch please do not post if you are going to continue to be abusive, just calm down a second and actually look at this.
MIDutch are you willing to admit you are wrong? Becuase regarding Fred Hoyle you are very wrong.
When I was 16, I brought Fred Hoyle's book "Intelligent Universe", the third chapter was the biggest attack on natural selection that I have ever read.
" Fred Hoyle did NOT question the mechanism of natural selection. "
It is a confirmed fact that he did question and reject the mechanism of natural selection mainly based on mathematical grounds. You have not read his works.
Anyway here is the reference which refutes your comment. I hope you for once can actually be honest and admit you were wrong:
http://books.google.co.uk/books...
Read that and understand that Hoyle spent most the last 30 years of his life attacking natural selection, he even wrote a book titled "why neodarwinism does not work".
Accept when you are wrong MIDutch.
Hoyle was an astronomer and (clumsy) Christian apologist who made the unbearably stupid "tornado in a junkyard" analogy.

His criticisms of the biological theory of evolution carry no weight.
Shadow

Moulton, UK

#11 Dec 11, 2011
MIDutch wrote:
<quoted text>
Okay, I admit I was wrong about Hoyle and his criticism of natural selection ... but guess what, it is irrelevant. Heck, he even claimed that Archaeopteryx was a fake ... and everyone knows how that argument of his turned out, don't we?
That is very honest and decent of you. And heres the thing, instead of going round and round on this forum debating all of this, doing stupid arguments personal attacks etc etc. Why not just finish off with one question. What is it going to take for you not to believe in natural selection? I am wasting time doing these posts. If someone can actually answer that, then I will leave, im leaving anyway this forum wastes college work time. But if you just tell me why users such as yourself are stick to natural selection like clue, then maybe I would understand.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#12 Dec 11, 2011
Shadow wrote:
<quoted text>
That is very honest and decent of you. And heres the thing, instead of going round and round on this forum debating all of this, doing stupid arguments personal attacks etc etc. Why not just finish off with one question. What is it going to take for you not to believe in natural selection?
Easy.

Using a population of organisms in an environment, demonstrate that the individuals LESS adapted to their environment are statistically the ones who are MOST likely to pass their genes on to the following generations.

Example 1: show that for a population of gazelles hunted by cheetahs that it is always the SLOWEST ones that produce the offspring which maintains the gazelle population.

Example 2: show that for a strain of influenza viruses it is always the ones MOST likely to be killed by the appropriate anti-bodies that evolve into a different strain that the body does not have antibodies for.

Example 3: show that for a species of coral it is always the individual coral organisms that are MOST susceptible to changes in water temperature and salinity that are actually surviving the changes occurring in many of the world's oceans to continue the species.

Demonstrate that this is the case across the board for all organisms living in their respective environments and I will gladly admit that I do not "believe" in natural selection.

Level 1

Since: Dec 11

Spokane, WA

#13 Dec 11, 2011
Shadow wrote:
This is a list of mostly non-religious scientists who have all spoken out against the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution - natural selection and random mutation and have questioned the role of it in evolution:
James A. Shapiro,
Alfred Russel Wallace,
Lev Berg,
Marcel-Paul Schutzenberger,
Michael Denton,
Michael Pitman,
David Berlinski,
Periannan Senapathy,
Chandra Wickramasighe,
Murray Eden,
Stanly Salthe,
Christian Schwabe,
Gerald Kerkut,
Lime-De-Faria,
Pierre Grasse,
Soren Lovtrop,
Fred Hoyle,
Stuart Pivar,
Guy Berthault,
Roberto Fondi,
Giuseppe Sermonti,
Edward Sisson,
Richard Sternberg,
Frank Tipler,
Brian Goodwin,
Peter Saunders,
Richard Milton,
Robert Wesson,
Francis Hitching,
Frank Ryan,
Gordon Rattray Taylor,
James Lovelock,
Lynn Margulis,
Rhawn Joseph,
Henry Fairfield Osborn,
Charles Otis Whitman,
Austin Hobart Clark,
Theodor Eimer,
Erwin Schrödinger,
Hans Dreisch,
John Scott Haldane,
James Le Fanu,
Johannes Reinke,
Guy Coburn Robson,
Rupert Sheldrake,
Robert Broom,
Thomas Hunt Morgan,
William Bateson,
Edward Drinker Cope,
Richard Owen,
George Henslow,
Carl Von Nageli,
Karl Von Baer,
Wilhelm Haacke,
William Lang,
Hans Prizibram,
Otto Schindewolf,
Daniel de Rosa,
Paul Davies,
Robert Lanza,
George Greenstein,
Mae-Wan Ho,
JohnJoe McFadden,
Bruce Lipton,
Ervin Lazlo,
Amit Goswami,
Hubert Yockey,
David Stove,
Jerry Fodor,
James N. Gardner,
Jean Staune,
Lee Spetner,
Antony Flew,
Bradley Monton
As you can see, it is perfectly normal to question natural selection and random mutation as the mechanisms of evolution, you do not have to be a creationist, religious etc. Don't just accept it at face value, explore the other theories of evolution.
http://ncse.com/taking-action/list-steves

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#14 Dec 12, 2011
Shadow wrote:
This is a list of mostly non-religious scientists who have all spoken out against the Darwinian mechanisms of evolution - natural selection and random mutation and have questioned the role of it in evolution:
Shadow, may I ask you to post the website where this list was obtained, please?
Shadow

Moulton, UK

#15 Dec 12, 2011
MIDutch wrote:
<quoted text>
Easy.
Using a population of organisms in an environment, demonstrate that the individuals LESS adapted to their environment are statistically the ones who are MOST likely to pass their genes on to the following generations.
Example 1: show that for a population of gazelles hunted by cheetahs that it is always the SLOWEST ones that produce the offspring which maintains the gazelle population.
Example 2: show that for a strain of influenza viruses it is always the ones MOST likely to be killed by the appropriate anti-bodies that evolve into a different strain that the body does not have antibodies for.
Example 3: show that for a species of coral it is always the individual coral organisms that are MOST susceptible to changes in water temperature and salinity that are actually surviving the changes occurring in many of the world's oceans to continue the species.
Demonstrate that this is the case across the board for all organisms living in their respective environments and I will gladly admit that I do not "believe" in natural selection.
Fair play on those examples, but nothing is being created, ns can not create so i do not see it as an important evolutionary mechanism, natural selection clearly has nothing to do with evolution. So what mechanisms in evolution cause speciation or mega evolutionary changes?
Shadow

Moulton, UK

#16 Dec 12, 2011
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Shadow, may I ask you to post the website where this list was obtained, please?
no website, it is a list i made, I am collecting all scientists who have downgraded, rejected, or criticised the role of natural selection and darwinism and who have supported alternative evolutionary mechanisms.

Since: Dec 06

Urbana, Illinois

#17 Dec 12, 2011
Shadow wrote:
MIDutch please do not post if you are going to continue to be abusive...
Funny comment, coming from you...

Since: Dec 06

Urbana, Illinois

#18 Dec 12, 2011
Gillette wrote:
<quoted text>
Hoyle was an astronomer and (clumsy) Christian apologist who made the unbearably stupid "tornado in a junkyard" analogy.
His criticisms of the biological theory of evolution carry no weight.
He also smeared his own distinguished career by falsely claiming that Archaeopteryx fossils were modified (he claimed that they were Dinosaurs that had feathers 'added'). He didn't like Archaeopteryx, so it HAD to be fake:)

He was utterly refuted on that issue, and sadly, was truly left looking like a fool.

“That's just MY opinion...”

Since: Jan 07

Location hidden

#19 Dec 12, 2011
Shadow wrote:
no website, it is a list i made, I am collecting all scientists who have downgraded, rejected, or criticised the role of natural selection and darwinism and who have supported alternative evolutionary mechanisms.
Which alternative evolutionary mechanism(s) do you support?

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#20 Dec 12, 2011
Shadow wrote:
<quoted text>
no website, it is a list i made, I am collecting all scientists who have downgraded, rejected, or criticised the role of natural selection and darwinism and who have supported alternative evolutionary mechanisms.
....including numerologists, psychic mediums and various and sundry other crackpots.

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker
First Prev
of 5
Next Last

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Evolution Debate Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
It's the Darwin crowd that lacks the facts in e... (Mar '09) 8 min DanFromSmithville 137,048
Evolution vs. Creation (Jul '11) 17 min replaytime 116,495
There is no scientific evidence whatsoever for ... 31 min Kong_ 55
Should evolution be taught in high school? (Feb '08) 37 min One way or another 173,497
Satan's Lies and Scientist Guys 52 min Kong_ 2
Amino Acid Sequeneces prove Darwin a Liar 56 min Kong_ 10
The Satanic Character of Social Darwinism 1 hr MikeF 474
•••
Enter and win $5000
•••

Evolution Debate People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE

•••