“Transitional Molecular Fossils”

Since: Dec 06

Somewhere in Penn's Woods

#141 Aug 1, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>You see. Reading really does pay off.
Yep..continue to cop out and not answer the questions.
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>The cowardly chicken is you. Every child mathematician knows that a large number of successive small scrambles of text containing information will eventually produce gibberish.
...and you continually fail to understand that the function of the DNA molecule is derived not only by the sequence of bases but by the way the DNA has been modified by other forces, i.e. methylation, NOT intelligent design.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

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#142 Aug 1, 2012
Katydid wrote:
...and you continually fail to understand that the function of the DNA molecule is derived not only by the sequence of bases but by the way the DNA has been modified by other forces, i.e. methylation, NOT intelligent design.
I agree that we're discussing random forces, not intelligent design. So why don't you understand that randomized code produces gibberish?

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#143 Aug 1, 2012
Katydid wrote:
<quoted text>
No it does not.
Sorry, but you cannot extrapolate this into "devolution". Does the production of new traits beyond the range of ordinary parental variation always equate to "new species"? New proteins, new functions, new info equals "new species"? Yes, heterosis is biologically significant in the evolution of species by providing a heterozygote advantage in naturally occurring hybrids. Although heterosis is a genome-wide event where the phenotypic effects involve the action of many genes, the genetic mechanism/specific genes controlling heterosis are unknown. Is the effect achieved due to the combination of alleles at multiple loci masking the effects of deleterious recessive alleles of the parents? Is there a synergistic outperformance of heterozygous alleles at the same locus or a combination of loci? Or are the two loci that complement each other tightly linked? You can extrapolate this to "devolution"? Don't think so.
What of mutations that can be reversed by subsequent mutations?. A DNA base can be turned from an A to a G and then back to an A again. Mutations can cause both a gain and a loss in information. If a mutation that results in a loss of information, the reverse mutation must result in its gain. How does that fit in with "devolution"?
http://www.bing.com/search...

glycobiology and heterosis
Also on/off switching is not necessarily permanent, or population wide.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#144 Aug 1, 2012
Katydid wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep..continue to cop out and not answer the questions.
<quoted text>
...and you continually fail to understand that the function of the DNA molecule is derived not only by the sequence of bases but by the way the DNA has been modified by other forces, i.e. methylation, NOT intelligent design.
e.g.
http://www.springerimages.com/Images/LifeScie...

“Transitional Molecular Fossils”

Since: Dec 06

Somewhere in Penn's Woods

#145 Aug 1, 2012
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
http://www.bing.com/search...
glycobiology and heterosis
Also on/off switching is not necessarily permanent, or population wide.
Thank you, interesting reading. See also:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/...

“Transitional Molecular Fossils”

Since: Dec 06

Somewhere in Penn's Woods

#146 Aug 1, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>I agree that we're discussing random forces, not intelligent design. So why don't you understand that randomized code produces gibberish?
Oh please, "scrambled" "randomized"? "Gibberish"? You do know what epigenetics is right? Epigenetics is the study of the non sequence based changes (uh..DNA methylation anyone ?). Research published just this year shows that natural selection does not act on genetic variation alone. Their research showed that epigenetic traits can have cumulative, heritable effects in mammals and that the mechanism identified might be a way that species can rapidly adapt to new environmental conditions, like a change in available diet, and then even change back a few generations later if needed.

Quote:
Natural selection acts on variation that is typically assumed to be genetic in origin. But epigenetic mechanisms, which are interposed between the genome and its environment, can create diversity independently of genetic variation. Epigenetic states can respond to environmental cues, and can be heritable, thus providing a means by which environmentally responsive phenotypes might be selectable independent of genotype. Here, we have tested the possibility that environment and selection can act together to increase the penetrance of an epigenetically determined phenotype. We used isogenic A(vy) mice, in which the epigenetic state of the A(vy) allele is sensitive to dietary methyl donors. By combining methyl donor supplementation with selection for a silent A(vy) allele, we progressively increased the prevalence of the associated phenotype in the population over five generations. After withdrawal of the dietary supplement, the shift persisted for one generation but was lost in subsequent generations. Our data provide the first demonstration that selection for a purely epigenetic trait can result in cumulative germline effects in mammals. These results present an alternative to the paradigm that natural selection acts only on genetic variation, and suggest that epigenetic changes could underlie rapid adaptation of species in response to natural environmental fluctuations.

http://lib.bioinfo.pl/paper:22319121

“Transitional Molecular Fossils”

Since: Dec 06

Somewhere in Penn's Woods

#147 Aug 1, 2012
Part Two

The individuals at Hopkins also did studies on those who can change the epigenetic states of certain gene promoters (tweaking the DNA methylation up or down) are better able to cope with environmental changes. What underlies the flexibility is a heritable genetic mechanism, SNPs in promoter regions, adding a C or G here or there results in new opportunities for epigenetic control. The total phenotype of the organism isn't going to be a lot different from others in the species but there will be enhanced flexibility to respond epigenetically to environmental challenges. This provides a survival advantage that can be passed on to offspring through natural selection.

See:
"Stochastic epigenetic variation as a driving force of development, evolutionary adaptation, and disease"

Quote:
We suggest that genetic variants that do not change the mean phenotype could change the variability of phenotype; and this could be mediated epigenetically. This inherited stochastic variation model would provide a mechanism to explain an epigenetic role of developmental biology in selectable phenotypic variation, as well as the largely unexplained heritable genetic variation underlying common complex disease. We provide two experimental results as proof of principle. The first result is direct evidence for stochastic epigenetic variation, identifying highly variably DNA-methylated regions in mouse and human liver and mouse brain, associated with development and morphogenesis. The second is a heritable genetic mechanism for variable methylation, namely the loss or gain of CpG dinucleotides over evolutionary time. Finally, we model genetically inherited stochastic variation in evolution, showing that it provides a powerful mechanism for evolutionary adaptation in changing environments that can be mediated epigenetically. These data suggest that genetically inherited propensity to phenotypic variability, even with no change in the mean phenotype, substantially increases fitness while increasing the disease susceptibility of a population with a changing environment.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2009/12/28/...

I can clog up this thread with 50 or 60 peer reviewed studies on epigenetics and DNA methylation.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

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#148 Aug 1, 2012
Katydid wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you, interesting reading. See also:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/...
Apropos glogging up...we can never have enough information on epigenetics and the proper understanding of genotype and phenotype.

I read up on above epigenetic subject last week.
Now i'm reconsidering my diet...or should i?
It seems our ancestors where rather more of the vegetarian kind.
So also on 'foreign' N-gly i need more information.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2...
Bioinformatics and molecular modeling in glycobiology.
Gives a good idea of the basics. Also pathways etc.
After all i think they have studied this field now for a good 30 years.

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#149 Aug 1, 2012
glogging -clogging interrobang

““You must not lose faith ”

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Since: Jun 11

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#150 Aug 1, 2012
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#151 Aug 2, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>I agree that we're discussing random forces, not intelligent design. So why don't you understand that randomized code produces gibberish?
Sure it does.

But we're not talking about a code, we're talking about chemistry.

Of course as a mathematician and not a scientist you wouldn't understand.

“Maccullochella macquariensis”

Since: May 08

Melbourne, Australia

#152 Aug 2, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>
Sure it does.
But we're not talking about a code, we're talking about chemistry.
Of course as a mathematician and not a scientist you wouldn't understand.
Sorry Dude, but IMHO all of your post except for the last three words is redundant. 8^)
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

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#154 Aug 2, 2012
The Dude wrote:
But we're not talking about a code, we're talking about chemistry.
This ignorance of yours dates back to the days when it was believed that cells were just bits of animated jelly. No, the truth is that any one cell is a complex factory of machines.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#155 Aug 2, 2012
The Dude wrote:
But we're not talking about a code, we're talking about chemistry.
This ignorance of yours dates back to the days when it was believed that cells were just bits of animated jelly. No, the truth is that every single cell is a complex factory of machines.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#156 Aug 2, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>This ignorance of yours dates back to the days when it was believed that cells were just bits of animated jelly. No, the truth is that any one cell is a complex factory of machines.
Can you demonstrate that they were designed?

No, it doesn't appear that you can. Just like you can't back up anything else on this thread.

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#157 Aug 2, 2012
The Dude wrote:
<quoted text>Can you demonstrate that they were designed?

No, it doesn't appear that you can. Just like you can't back up anything else on this thread.
You know that when the ignorance card is played they have nothing more to provide to the argument.:)

““You must not lose faith ”

Level 5

Since: Jun 11

Location hidden

#158 Aug 3, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>I agree that we're discussing random forces, not intelligent design. So why don't you understand that randomized code produces gibberish?
Even 'devolution' leaves room for randomized events producing organized code as in bottleneck epigenetic changes which once f.i. saved our population from being wiped out be malaria.
Which was the weakness in this Dutch derived theory.

(We discussed this months ago in the other thread)

“Transitional Molecular Fossils”

Since: Dec 06

Somewhere in Penn's Woods

#159 Aug 3, 2012
MAAT wrote:
<quoted text>
Apropos glogging up...we can never have enough information on epigenetics and the proper understanding of genotype and phenotype.
I read up on above epigenetic subject last week.
Now i'm reconsidering my diet...or should i?
It seems our ancestors where rather more of the vegetarian kind.
So also on 'foreign' N-gly i need more information.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2...
Bioinformatics and molecular modeling in glycobiology.
Gives a good idea of the basics. Also pathways etc.
After all i think they have studied this field now for a good 30 years.
As you are interested in methylation you might be interested in listening to Dr. Feinberg (Director of the Center for Epigenetics at Hopkins) discuss his research.(On epigenie.com )

http://epigenie.com/redefining-dna-methylatio...

http://epigenie.com/pushing-the-technology-fr...
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#160 Aug 4, 2012
MAAT wrote:
Even 'devolution' leaves room for randomized events producing organized code
Yes, thanks for acknowledging that. I call it the first fundamental theorem of molecular creationism.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#161 Aug 4, 2012
Shubee wrote:
Yes, thanks for acknowledging that. I call it the first fundamental theorem of molecular creationism.
I forgot to say that I discovered a very cute proof of that theorem.
everythingimportant.org/quantumcreationism/#F...

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