The Flood
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Thomas Robertson

Beijing, China

#1 Jul 19, 2012
A Creationist on the Evolution vs. Creation thread requested discussion on the Flood.
So I shall now honor that Creationist's request.

First, I shall ask questions regarding how Noah managed to handle so many animals on the Ark:

--How did Noah manage animals of other habitats?

Did Noah have a freezer for the penguins and polar bears?
If he managed that with Bronze Age technology, he must have been quite some guy!

--How did Noah feed all the carnivores?

Someone calculated that he would need 10 tons of meat to feed the 2 lions.
Keep in mind that he would have to keep that supply refrigerated with Bronze Age technology.

An anteater eats 25,000 of those little critters a day.
2 anteaters times 190 days times 25,000 equals 9,500,000 ants.
And I thought Noah only took 2 ants!

--For that matter, how did Noah feed all the vegetarians?

An elephant needs 160 kilograms of fodder per day. Multiply by 2 for the two elephants, and multiply by 190 for the number of days on the Ark, and you find that he had to store 60,800 kilograms of fodder and keep it from spoiling.

--How did Noah protect animals upon whom the other animals would prey?

Aren't you kinda worried about those meek little koalas and marmosets?

--How did Noah provide for parasites?

The parasites causing measles, pneumonia, leprosy, typhus, typhoid fever, smallpow, polio, syphilis, and gonorrhea can survive only on human hosts.

That means that Noah and his seven trusty crewmen had to suffer all these diseases while carrying on an enormous work load.

--What did Noah do about marine life?

It is commonly assumed that Noah only had to worry about land animals. But most animals that live in the water are choosy about fresh water or salt water. And the Flood would have messed up both.
So Noah had to keep a fresh water aquarium and a salt water aquarium.
Thomas Robertson

Beijing, China

#2 Jul 19, 2012
But once the land dried up, all of Noah's problems were over, right?
Wrong!
Here are some more questions which Noah had to worry about:

---How did the animals make it all the way back home?

The flightless moa bird lives only in New Zealand.
That must have been some hike.

---How did the animals cross the ocean?

Let's stick with the moa bird for another moment.
The poor fellow could only get as far as South Africa on land.
And that's only one example.
The anteaters had to get to South America.
The pandas had to get to China.

Some Creationists tell us that all of land was Pangaea at the time, and that the Continental Drift occurred later.
Bishop Ussher says that the Flood took place in 2347 BC.
Geologists say that the Continental Drift took place 120 million years ago.
Someone has to be wrong.

---How did the prey escape their predators?

Most of the animals native to Australia are as sweet as they could be.
Yet we are told that the two kangaroos hopped all the way from Turkey to Australia without a care in the world.

---How did animals of different habitats survive?

Noah had to let the cold-dwelling animals out of the freezer and let the hot-dwelling animals out of the sauna bath.
So how did those animals survive the odyssey back to their present habitats?

---Why did some animals reject perfectly hospitable habitats?

Why did the cougars go all the way to South America when they could find a similar environment in Africa?

---How did the blind species make it?

The mole must have had to do a lot of feeling around to make it all the way to Australia.

---How did some species manage to populate the whole world?

Earthworms are found in every continent, and so are salamanders.
So I guess that once they got out of the Ark, the two earthworms and the two salamanders bred one more pair for each continent, each pair went their own way, and then the continents drifted.

---Why didn't the immigrating species leave any fossils?

They must have all made it in one generation.

---Why didn't the immigrating species leave any folklore?

Folk tales about kangaroos are found only in Australia, and folk tales about anteaters are found only in South America.
If those animals passed through Africa as recently as three thousand years ago, why aren't there any folk tales about kangaroos and anteaters in Africa?

---How did Noah dispense with all the water animals?

As we saw in the previous post, Noah had to have a fresh water aquarium and a salt water aquarium.
At first, we may think that all he had to do was dump both aquariums overboard.
But then we must remember that Noah and his Ark were stranded on Mount Ararat.

---Why aren't these exotic animals mentioned in the Bible?

The story of the Flood in the Bible mentions no specific animals beside cattle, doves, and ravens.
The sight of so many different animals, hitherto unfamiliar to the Old Testament people, would surely have invited comment.

That's all for now.
If you're interested, I'll write another post about Flood geology.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#3 Jul 20, 2012
Thomas Robertson wrote:
---How did the animals cross the ocean?
Let's stick with the moa bird for another moment.
The poor fellow could only get as far as South Africa on land.
And that's only one example.
The anteaters had to get to South America.
The pandas had to get to China.
Some Creationists tell us that all of land was Pangaea at the time, and that the Continental Drift occurred later.
Bishop Ussher says that the Flood took place in 2347 BC.
Geologists say that the Continental Drift took place 120 million years ago.
Someone has to be wrong.
Well since Ussher was an apologist and not a historical scholar, and his proposals (as well as creationist's excuses for them) destroy all life on Earth in multiple different extreme and most certain ways, my guess is that Ussher is simply so wrongily wrong wrong he could not possibly get any wronger if he was deliberately attempting to be so ridiculously wrong by being constantly wrong while being wrong.

Of course it IS possible that the stories of Noah's Flood were plagiarized from ancient legends around at the time that attempted to describe a historical *local* event.

The only other alternatives are that either all life on Earth died during the Flood and we are not really having this conversation, or that God used magic to perform the Flood which of course means any claims of scientific evidence to support such a story would be beyond absurd.
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#4 Jul 20, 2012
Anything is possible ... in children's (or scientifically ignorant bronze age goat herder) fairy tales.

The "fundamentalist christian creationists" don't have any logical or rational explanations for any of their "apologetics". They just think that if they yell loud enough, vomit lots of Bible passages and evoke "god" and Jesus Christ's names enough then everyone should be required to believe them (and if you don't you'll burn in Hell for all eternity).
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#5 Jul 21, 2012
Thomas Robertson wrote:
Did Noah have a freezer for the penguins and polar bears?
What makes you believe that penguins and polar bears existed at the time of the universal flood? Where are the penguin fossils?

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#6 Jul 21, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>What makes you believe that penguins and polar bears existed at the time of the universal flood? Where are the penguin fossils?
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/6/11...

Early Penguin Fossils, Plus Mitochondrial Genomes, Calibrate Avian Evolution

http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/handle/...

The basal penguin (Aves, Sphenisciformes) Perudyptes devriesi and a phylogenetic evaluation of the penguin fossil record.(Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History, no. 337)

http://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/215...

Systematics, biogeography, and evolutionary history of fossil and extant penguins (Aves: Sphenisciformes)
Thomas Robertson

Beijing, China

#7 Jul 22, 2012
Shubee wrote:
What makes you believe that penguins and polar bears existed at the time of the universal flood? Where are the penguin fossils?
Danged if I know.
Ask someone who believes all this nonsense.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#8 Jul 22, 2012
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/23/6/11...
Early Penguin Fossils, Plus Mitochondrial Genomes, Calibrate Avian Evolution
http://digitallibrary.amnh.org/dspace/handle/...
The basal penguin (Aves, Sphenisciformes) Perudyptes devriesi and a phylogenetic evaluation of the penguin fossil record.(Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History, no. 337)
http://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/215...
Systematics, biogeography, and evolutionary history of fossil and extant penguins (Aves: Sphenisciformes)
Since your links show that there are penguin fossils from New Zealand, Peru, Australia, South Africa and, in fact, on every Gondwanan continent except India, then I believe that you have answered Thomas Robertsonís remark about Noah needing ďa freezer for the penguins.Ē

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#9 Jul 22, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>Since your links show that there are penguin fossils from New Zealand, Peru, Australia, South Africa and, in fact, on every Gondwanan continent except India, then I believe that you have answered Thomas Robertsonís remark about Noah needing ďa freezer for the penguins.Ē
Perhaps.

But you would still need to provide evidence for the Noachian flood.

Which you cannot.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#10 Jul 22, 2012
Kong_ wrote:
Perhaps.
But you would still need to provide evidence for the Noachian flood.
Which you cannot.
It might not be difficult to prove. One only needs a global extinction event that has wiped out a tremendous number of species in an instant of geological time together with associated evidence of the global catastrophe producing fossils created by flood waters. For starters, can you provide a complete map of the world's sedimentary rocks?

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#11 Jul 22, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>It might not be difficult to prove. One only needs a global extinction event that has wiped out a tremendous number of species in an instant of geological time together with associated evidence of the global catastrophe producing fossils created by flood waters. For starters, can you provide a complete map of the world's sedimentary rocks?
Don't need to.

You need only prove a genetic (population) bottleneck for every living species at +/- 4500 year ago.

Hop to it! There's about eight million, seven hundred thousand species to research!
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#12 Jul 22, 2012
Kong_ wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't need to.
Yes, I understand that you don't want to go there.

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#13 Jul 22, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, I understand that you don't want to go there.
I don't have a problem "going there". It's irrelevant.

There's no evidence ANYWHERE for a global flood, and scores of evidence against it.

But since you asked: Here's a map of North America's sedimentary regions.

http://www.nationalatlas.gov/articles/geology...

“Nihil curo de ista tua stulta ”

Since: May 08

Orlando

#14 Jul 22, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>Yes, I understand that you don't want to go there.
...and btw, dont think for a minute that we've failed to notice you're "not going there" with respect to a global genetic bottleneck for every species.

Since: Feb 11

Location hidden

#15 Jul 22, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>It might not be difficult to prove. One only needs a global extinction event that has wiped out a tremendous number of species in an instant of geological time together with associated evidence of the global catastrophe producing fossils created by flood waters. For starters, can you provide a complete map of the world's sedimentary rocks?
Isn't it logical to assume that a global flood event that caused a global extinction would create a disproportionate amount of dinosaur fossils with surviving DNA to this day.
Thomas Robertson

Beijing, China

#16 Jul 22, 2012
According to Duane Gish, the Flood didn't cause any extinctions.
Remember, Noah was told to take two of every living animal.
That includes the dinosaurs.
In a children's book about dinosaurs, Gish tells his faithful readers that Noah took those huge tyrannosauruses, steogsaures and brontosauruses on his Ark, just to go extinct soon afterward.

I don't see any sense in that, but who am I to question God.
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#17 Jul 23, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>It might not be difficult to prove. One only needs a global extinction event that has wiped out a tremendous number of species in an instant of geological time together with associated evidence of the global catastrophe producing fossils created by flood waters.
In that case you should be able to point out when that took place.
Shubee wrote:
For starters, can you provide a complete map of the world's sedimentary rocks?
Ah, I see you want US to provide evidence without which means YOUR unsubstantiated claim is correct by default.

Keep on lying for Ellen, Shoob.
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#18 Jul 23, 2012
Rogue Angel wrote:
<quoted text>
Isn't it logical to assume that a global flood event that caused a global extinction would create a disproportionate amount of dinosaur fossils with surviving DNA to this day.
I don't understand your question. The survival of DNA in fossils has to do with the laws of chemistry. And surviving DNA in ancient fossils has been observed, to the dismay of many evolutionists.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/...
Level 6

Since: Nov 08

Location hidden

#19 Jul 23, 2012
The Dude wrote:
In that case you should be able to point out when that took place.
It obviously took place under the time limit as dictated by the laws of chemistry for all ancient DNA in fossils to decay.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/...
The Dude

Birkenhead, UK

#20 Jul 23, 2012
Shubee wrote:
<quoted text>It obviously took place under the time limit as dictated by the laws of chemistry for all ancient DNA in fossils to decay.
So when did it take place?

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